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breaking down the new gun laws signed by the governor

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  •  The Supreme Court has established that the Second Amendment is an individuals right as was the unquestioned given when it was made part of the US Constitution
  • If I'm not mistaken, in 1791 when the Second Amendment was ratified, a musket was an assault rifle and ball and powder its ammo?
  •  I may be wrong, but I have never heard or read anywhere that in colonial times muskets/assault rifles or the amount of ball and powder one could possess or carry being regulated?
  • I have also been under the impression that in that time it was Common to carry a handgun in any fashion one desired without and type of permission or registration being acceptable?
  • If these things were intended to go unchecked at the time they were implemented, how is interpreting them in any other way today justified?

A facet of todays population may say, times have changed.

If this argument is sufficient to rewrite or abolish one protection of the Bill Of Rights shouldn't the others be examined as well i.e. Freedom Of Speech, Freedom Of Religion, Civil Rights?

Until that time comes how is the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed words that could possibly be interpreted as anything other than what they say?

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2 hours ago, capt14k said:

 


When exactly was the last time you obtained a warrant? 20 years ago? The world is a different place and laws like the Patriot Act and NDAA have eroded our freedoms. The rules have changed. Have they used them to take firearms on a mass scale yet? No. Would they? In places like the PRNJ I wouldn't bet against it.

As for illegal wiretaps I guesss you never heard of a stingray?

https://www.wired.com/2015/10/stingray-government-spy-tools-can-record-calls-new-documents-confirm/

Sadly we have a Circuit Split regarding them as well. The fact that even one court ruled a warrant is not needed to use a stingray device shows the extent of the erosion of our freedoms.


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When exactly did you do your 2 years of law school?  20 years ago?  That might make you more knowledgeable than some people in many respects but far from a legal expert.

It has been much more recently than 20 years since I have dealt with getting a search warrant.  I operated with the Patriot Act for several years before I retired. 

The fact remains you've never been the affiant for a search warrant so you're talking about something you've never done.  You use your bit of education to try and bamboozle people with your so called knowledge which I will explain.

The Patriot Act was passed to deal with terrorism.  Not possession of a "high capacity" magazine.  You're quoting a law out of context to support your argument.  While the Patriot Act does give more tools to law enforcement and makes it easier to obtain information in many respects it has nothing to do with state gun laws.  If it isn't terrorism related you can't use the Patriot Act.

You seem to think NJSP would go to the Feds and try to claim possession of a "high capacity" magazine makes someone a terrorist.  I repeat, if it isn't terrorism you can't use the Patriot Act.

Please enlighten us on how many Americans have been harmed by the Patriot Act?  Thousands? Hundreds? A dozen? Maybe no one.  Please show us all these people who have been harmed by use of the Patriot Act.  Tell us about someone you know that's been harmed by the Patriot Act.

Your quoting the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) shows you've drank the black helicopter Kool Aid.  The NDAA has been around since the 60s.  It tells DOD how to spend their money.  So which part of the NDAA bothers you?  The part that authorizes funds to improve family housing at Ft Benning? Maybe it's the improved navigation systems for F16s?  

You really need to be more specific about what sections of the Patriot Act you're referring to.  It does contain sections dealing with terrorism and illegal combatants.

You linked an article about stingrays but can't relate all these cases where they have been used to illegally intercept conversations and use that info for search warrants as you claim.  The technology of a stingray has been around a long time.  Even before I retired. Courts have ruled theres a lower expectation of privacy for a pen register.  You still need a judge to sign off for a pen or to listen to conversations.  Ultimately SCOTUS will rule on the use of stingrays.  That's in COTUS too.

You are guilty of what liberals do on this forum.  You don't answer questions and just shift to other issues to try and prove your point.

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When exactly did you do your 2 years of law school?  20 years ago?  That might make you more knowledgeable than some people in many respects but far from a legal expert. It has been much more recently than 20 years since I have dealt with getting a search warrant.  I operated with the Patriot Act for several years before I retired.  The fact remains you've never been the affiant for a search warrant so you're talking about something you've never done.  You use your bit of education to try and bamboozle people with your so called knowledge which I will explain. The Patriot Act was passed to deal with terrorism.  Not possession of a "high capacity" magazine.  You're quoting a law out of context to support your argument.  While the Patriot Act does give more tools to law enforcement and makes it easier to obtain information in many respects it has nothing to do with state gun laws.  If it isn't terrorism related you can't use the Patriot Act.

You seem to think NJSP would go to the Feds and try to claim possession of a "high capacity" magazine makes someone a terrorist.  I repeat, if it isn't terrorism you can't use the Patriot Act.

Please enlighten us on how many Americans have been harmed by the Patriot Act?  Thousands? Hundreds? A dozen? Maybe no one.  Please show us all these people who have been harmed by use of the Patriot Act.  Tell us about someone you know that's been harmed by the Patriot Act.

Your quoting the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) shows you've drank the black helicopter Kool Aid.  The NDAA has been around since the 60s.  It tells DOD how to spend their money.  So which part of the NDAA bothers you?  The part that authorizes funds to improve family housing at Ft Benning? Maybe it's the improved navigation systems for F16s?  

You really need to be more specific about what sections of the Patriot Act you're referring to.  It does contain sections dealing with terrorism and illegal combatants.

You linked an article about stingrays but can't relate all these cases where they have been used to illegally intercept conversations and use that info for search warrants as you claim.  The technology of a stingray has been around a long time.  Even before I retired. Courts have ruled theres a lower expectation of privacy for a pen register.  You still need a judge to sign off for a pen or to listen to conversations.  Ultimately SCOTUS will rule on the use of stingrays.  That's in COTUS too.

You are guilty of what liberals do on this forum.  You don't answer questions and just shift to other issues to try and prove your point.

 

 

 

 First off Stingrays have been ruled as illegal wiretaps without a warrant in multiple appellate decisions 

DC Court of Appeals ruled warrant needed Jones v U.S.

 

6th & 7th Circuit ruled warrantless wiretap with Stingray ok.

 

Multiple Federal District and State Judges have ruled not ok.

 

Hopefully SCOTUS will rule against them as well.

 

See sections 1021 and 1022 of 2012 NDAA. When Congress tried to change law to prevent detention on U.S. Soil it failed. It has been used to detain jounalists.

 

Patriot Act destroyed Civil Liberties

 

Here are just some examples from ACLU.

 

https://www.aclu.org/other/surveillance-under-usapatriot-act

 

There are other laws as well that have destroyed freedoms and liberties.

 

Here is the latest. Change to FISA passed and supported by Trump allows the collection of data by companies to spy on Americans

 

 

 https://www.fastcompany.com/40518520/congress-702-authorization-trump-nsa-fbi-spying-loopholes

 

 

Bringing companies in to do the work for the NSA started with SOPA which was opposed by companies, then there was CISPA which became CISA. The same companies opposed to SOPA and CISPA now supported CISA, because they are being paid by the government to spy on Americans. That is Facism at its best.

 

My initial point was when they come for the guns, not that they are coming now, there are ways for them to use the "law" to get them. These laws in the name of protecting us from terrorists are all BS. They are to take away our freedom and liberty. The cabal operates on both sides of the aisle. While the Dems were attacking the 2nd the GOP destroyed the 4th. They both are going after the 1st.

 

 

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5 hours ago, fslater said:
  •  The Supreme Court has established that the Second Amendment is an individuals right as was the unquestioned given when it was made part of the US Constitution
  • If I'm not mistaken, in 1791 when the Second Amendment was ratified, a musket was an assault rifle and ball and powder its ammo?
  •  I may be wrong, but I have never heard or read anywhere that in colonial times muskets/assault rifles or the amount of ball and powder one could possess or carry being regulated?
  • I have also been under the impression that in that time it was Common to carry a handgun in any fashion one desired without and type of permission or registration being acceptable?
  • If these things were intended to go unchecked at the time they were implemented, how is interpreting them in any other way today justified?

A facet of todays population may say, times have changed.

If this argument is sufficient to rewrite or abolish one protection of the Bill Of Rights shouldn't the others be examined as well i.e. Freedom Of Speech, Freedom Of Religion, Civil Rights?

Until that time comes how is the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed words that could possibly be interpreted as anything other than what they say?

Here you go.....

 

EQUIPMENT WAS REGULATED:

" shall with all convenient speed furnish himself with a good musket or firelock and bayonet, sword or tomahawk-, a steel ramrod, priming-wire and brush fitted thereto, a cartridge-box to contain twenty-three rounds of cartridges, twelve flints, and a knapsack, agreeable to the direction of the Continental Congress, under the forfeiture of two shillings for the want of a musket or firelock, and of one shilling for the want of the other above-enumerated articles"; also " that every person directed to be enrolled as above shall, at his place of abode, be provided with one pound of powder and three pounds of bullets of proper size to his musket or firelock."

 

http://www.doublegv.com/ggv/militia.html

 

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19 minutes ago, Fred2 said:

Here you go.....

 

EQUIPMENT WAS REGULATED:

" shall with all convenient speed furnish himself with a good musket or firelock and bayonet, sword or tomahawk-, a steel ramrod, priming-wire and brush fitted thereto, a cartridge-box to contain twenty-three rounds of cartridges, twelve flints, and a knapsack, agreeable to the direction of the Continental Congress, under the forfeiture of two shillings for the want of a musket or firelock, and of one shilling for the want of the other above-enumerated articles"; also " that every person directed to be enrolled as above shall, at his place of abode, be provided with one pound of powder and three pounds of bullets of proper size to his musket or firelock."

 

http://www.doublegv.com/ggv/militia.html

 

I like you

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Here you go.....
 
EQUIPMENT WAS REGULATED:

" shall with all convenient speed furnish himself with a good musket or firelock and bayonet, sword or tomahawk-, a steel ramrod, priming-wire and brush fitted thereto, a cartridge-box to contain twenty-three rounds of cartridges, twelve flints, and a knapsack, agreeable to the direction of the Continental Congress, under the forfeiture of two shillings for the want of a musket or firelock, and of one shilling for the want of the other above-enumerated articles"; also " that every person directed to be enrolled as above shall, at his place of abode, be provided with one pound of powder and three pounds of bullets of proper size to his musket or firelock."
 
http://www.doublegv.com/ggv/militia.html
 
That sounds like military or militia regulations. Not civilian regulations. Is it?

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31 minutes ago, capt14k said:

That sounds like military or militia regulations. Not civilian regulations. Is it?

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The Militia IS the people.

 

And, this is what Regulated meant.

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The Militia IS the people.
 
And, this is what Regulated meant.
I've always read the Second Amendment as a preamble and the right. One not having an effect on the other, and the government does not have a right to regulate the people. The reason for the Second Amendment was a failsafe in case all other checks and balances failed. For the people to have the right to be armed at all times in order to defend the Republic from all Tyranny both foreign or domestic. In other words for the people to be as well armed as the military so that the people could overthrow the government if need be.

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On 6/16/2018 at 4:25 PM, capt14k said:

You can still sell FTF till October 1st. After that with a FFL03 you can sell FTF C&R firearms (more than 50 years old) to another FFL03. Long guns they still need a FPID and handguns they still need a PTP.

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I'd be surprised if NJ recognizes the C&R provision of that law. C&R holder are exempt from OGAM, but the state doesn't provide anyway to utilize that exemption.

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I'd be surprised if NJ recognizes the C&R provision of that law. C&R holder are exempt from OGAM, but the state doesn't provide anyway to utilize that exemption.
This time the new law mentions it 4-5 times. I don't see how they can't recognize it. There would be no provision needed for OGAM since there is no need for NICS check for C&R handgun FFL03 to FFL03 transfer. Just need the number of permits to equal the number of handguns being transferred. Which is still BS are an Unconstitutional Infringement IMO.

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... Just need the number of permits to equal the number of handguns being transferred. Which is still BS are an Unconstitutional Infringement IMO.


Will you use permits for out of state acquisitions?

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Will you use permits for out of state acquisitions?

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I highly doubt any seller out of state will fill out the NJ permits. So I am not planning on too many handgun purchases with FFL03.


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On 6/17/2018 at 2:29 PM, capt14k said:

 First off Stingrays have been ruled as illegal wiretaps without a warrant in multiple appellate decisions 

DC Court of Appeals ruled warrant needed Jones v U.S.

 

6th & 7th Circuit ruled warrantless wiretap with Stingray ok.

 

Multiple Federal District and State Judges have ruled not ok.

 

Hopefully SCOTUS will rule against them as well.

 

See sections 1021 and 1022 of 2012 NDAA. When Congress tried to change law to prevent detention on U.S. Soil it failed. It has been used to detain jounalists.

 

Patriot Act destroyed Civil Liberties

 

Here are just some examples from ACLU.

 

https://www.aclu.org/other/surveillance-under-usapatriot-act

 

There are other laws as well that have destroyed freedoms and liberties.

 

Here is the latest. Change to FISA passed and supported by Trump allows the collection of data by companies to spy on Americans

 

 

https://www.fastcompany.com/40518520/congress-702-authorization-trump-nsa-fbi-spying-loopholes

 

 

Bringing companies in to do the work for the NSA started with SOPA which was opposed by companies, then there was CISPA which became CISA. The same companies opposed to SOPA and CISPA now supported CISA, because they are being paid by the government to spy on Americans. That is Facism at its best.

 

My initial point was when they come for the guns, not that they are coming now, there are ways for them to use the "law" to get them. These laws in the name of protecting us from terrorists are all BS. They are to take away our freedom and liberty. The cabal operates on both sides of the aisle. While the Dems were attacking the 2nd the GOP destroyed the 4th. They both are going after the 1st.

 

 

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Okay...

1.  Jones vs US 2012?  Dealt with agents using a GPS tracking device without a warrant.  No relavance to what's being discussed here.  I always got warrants for using a GPS tracker.  Easier to get than a search warrant for a premises.  Shame on the agents.

2.  You throw out a few sentences about stingrays.  You wind up saying the same thing I said SCOTUS will decide.

3.  1021 and 1022 permit DOD to detain belligerents for an indefinite period.  DOD does not enforce civil law.  You know that.  Don't be a terrorist and you have nothing to fear from 1021 and 1022.  DOD has different rules for warfare.  

I find it stage that you oppose this yet feel criminals should be incarcerated until reformed.  I guess you never heard of the 8A.

Please list the names of journalists who were detained under 1021 and 1022.  I couldn't find them.  Your ACLU link doesn't show anyone who suffered from the Patriot Act.

4.  Patriot Act did not give government access to anything they didnt have before.  It did make it easier to get that info.

I'll repeat, you can't use the Patriot Act to go after "high capacity" magazines.  The Patriot Act is for going after terrorists.  Are you for coddling terrorists?

5.  Changes to FISA put more restrictions on government.

6.  SOPA has to do with intellectual property rights.  CISPA deals with Internet companies sharing data with government.  CISA is an auditor's certification.  Can any of this be used to illegally collect info?  Sure, so can your smart phone.

You throw out one liners about how all these laws destroy our liberties bit don't provide any supporting documentation.  The same thing you have been critical of liberals.

You should consider the fact that your posting of misinformation and half truths is fearmongering.

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Okay...
1.  Jones vs US 2012?  Dealt with agents using a GPS tracking device without a warrant.  No relavance to what's being discussed here.  I always got warrants for using a GPS tracker.  Easier to get than a search warrant for a premises.  Shame on the agents.
2.  You throw out a few sentences about stingrays.  You wind up saying the same thing I said SCOTUS will decide.
3.  1021 and 1022 permit DOD to detain belligerents for an indefinite period.  DOD does not enforce civil law.  You know that.  Don't be a terrorist and you have nothing to fear from 1021 and 1022.  DOD has different rules for warfare.  
I find it stage that you oppose this yet feel criminals should be incarcerated until reformed.  I guess you never heard of the 8A.
Please list the names of journalists who were detained under 1021 and 1022.  I couldn't find them.  Your ACLU link doesn't show anyone who suffered from the Patriot Act.
4.  Patriot Act did not give government access to anything they didnt have before.  It did make it easier to get that info.
I'll repeat, you can't use the Patriot Act to go after "high capacity" magazines.  The Patriot Act is for going after terrorists.  Are you for coddling terrorists?
5.  Changes to FISA put more restrictions on government.
6.  SOPA has to do with intellectual property rights.  CISPA deals with Internet companies sharing data with government.  CISA is an auditor's certification.  Can any of this be used to illegally collect info?  Sure, so can your smart phone.
You throw out one liners about how all these laws destroy our liberties bit don't provide any supporting documentation.  The same thing you have been critical of liberals.
You should consider the fact that your posting of misinformation and half truths is fearmongering.
There were I believe 4 journalists held under NDAA. 2 foreign and 2 American. I will have to find the cases. Did you read the wording and how changes to 1021 and 1022 to expressly not be used against Americans failed a vote in Congress?


Tracking using phone sounds like illegal wiretap to me.


Patriot Act has been abused as has FISA. Wiretaps against Trump is just one example. There was a guy growing pot in I believe Arkansas that was sentenced to life under Patriot Act. Drugs fund terrorism so he was a terrorist, without any other connections. Again going by memory.

Have any been used to take guns or magazines? Not yet. Do I trust the government to have these powers and the ability to use private companies to spy on Americans absolutely not. That is the truly fascism. When government works with certain businesses to infringe on the rights of its citizens.


Terrorism is a bogeyman just like mass school shooters. We do not need laws that take away the rights and freedoms of the people to be more secure from the one in million chance of something happening. Most of these "terrorists" the government has caught were created by the government. Meaning they were pushed to and provided with the means to execute a terrorist act. There are multiple examples that can be provided.




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31 minutes ago, capt14k said:

There were I believe 4 journalists held under NDAA. 2 foreign and 2 American. I will have to find the cases. Did you read the wording and how changes to 1021 and 1022 to expressly not be used against Americans failed a vote in Congress?


Tracking using phone sounds like illegal wiretap to me.


Patriot Act has been abused as has FISA. Wiretaps against Trump is just one example. There was a guy growing pot in I believe Arkansas that was sentenced to life under Patriot Act. Drugs fund terrorism so he was a terrorist, without any other connections. Again going by memory.

Have any been used to take guns or magazines? Not yet. Do I trust the government to have these powers and the ability to use private companies to spy on Americans absolutely not. That is the truly fascism. When government works with certain businesses to infringe on the rights of its citizens.


Terrorism is a bogeyman just like mass school shooters. We do not need laws that take away the rights and freedoms of the people to be more secure from the one in million chance of something happening. Most of these "terrorists" the government has caught were created by the government. Meaning they were pushed to and provided with the means to execute a terrorist act. There are multiple examples that can be provided.




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1.  Find me the names and circumstance these journalists were detained under.  Something that fails by one vote or a hundred vote fails.  That's our system.  Read the COTUS.  Americans that act as belligerents should be treated differently.  We did that with Americans that served Germany and Japan in WW2.

2.  Not talking about tracking a cell phone.  Leave your phone on voice record where others are talking and you've violated electronic surveillance laws.

3.  There are always abuses of anything.  Not right and punished when caught.  FISA warrants with Trump were obtained using false information.  Those responsible will pay.

Worried about your information being used against you?  Don't commit crimes.

4.  Show me the guy growing marijuana convicted under Patriot Act.  I'd be interested in hearing the details.  I think your memory is flawed.  

5.  Where is this long list of abuses?  Have there been mistakes? Sure there have. Everyone isn't perfect like you.

6.Terrorism is a bogeyman?  Tell that to the victims in terrorist influenced shootings and bombings.  

You can push and provide someone any way you want.  They were found guilty in courts with all legal protections.  You know that no one can be found guilty of a conspiracy without predisposition and an overt act (except a drug conspiracy).

Eagerly awaiting all these examples you're talking about.

 

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1.  Find me the names and circumstance these journalists were detained under.  Something that fails by one vote or a hundred vote fails.  That's our system.  Read the COTUS.  Americans that act as belligerents should be treated differently.  We did that with Americans that served Germany and Japan in WW2. 2.  Not talking about tracking a cell phone.  Leave your phone on voice record where others are talking and you've violated electronic surveillance laws.

3.  There are always abuses of anything.  Not right and punished when caught.  FISA warrants with Trump were obtained using false information.  Those responsible will pay.

Worried about your information being used against you?  Don't commit crimes.

4.  Show me the guy growing marijuana convicted under Patriot Act.  I'd be interested in hearing the details.  I think your memory is flawed.  

5.  Where is this long list of abuses?  Have there been mistakes? Sure there have. Everyone isn't perfect like you.

6.Terrorism is a bogeyman?  Tell that to the victims in terrorist influenced shootings and bombings.  

You can push and provide someone any way you want.  They were found guilty in courts with all legal protections.  You know that no one can be found guilty of a conspiracy without predisposition and an overt act (except a drug conspiracy).

Eagerly awaiting all these examples you're talking about.

 

 

When I have the time I will. In the meantime if you want to find a lot of the info yourself check out  

willyloman.wordPress.com

 

 

I would link the other site, but it will be dismissed as crazy conspiracy theories which a lot is, but the other side is a forum that also has a lot of links to stories the MSM doesn't cover.

 

 

As for your step by step violations of rights and freedoms I believe you are saying it was ok to (Edit) treat Americans who helped Germany or Japan differently under the law? (I didn't fully follow #1), who cares if freedoms are violated by mistakes it happens, entrapment is fine, and as long as you are a good guy you shouldn't care if your privacy is violated.

 

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On 6/17/2018 at 5:43 PM, Fred2 said:

Here you go.....

 

EQUIPMENT WAS REGULATED:

" shall with all convenient speed furnish himself with a good musket or firelock and bayonet, sword or tomahawk-, a steel ramrod, priming-wire and brush fitted thereto, a cartridge-box to contain twenty-three rounds of cartridges, twelve flints, and a knapsack, agreeable to the direction of the Continental Congress, under the forfeiture of two shillings for the want of a musket or firelock, and of one shilling for the want of the other above-enumerated articles"; also " that every person directed to be enrolled as above shall, at his place of abode, be provided with one pound of powder and three pounds of bullets of proper size to his musket or firelock."

 

http://www.doublegv.com/ggv/militia.html

 

Hey, does this mean we can buy military weapons if we agree to follow the direction of the Continental Congress? 

Can we join the National Guard and buy an M16?  :)

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55 minutes ago, capt14k said:

 

As for your step by step violations of rights and freedoms I believe you are saying it was ok to inter Japanese Americans to prevent that one incident (I didn't fully follow #1), who cares if freedoms are violated by mistakes it happens, entrapment is fine, and as long as you are a good guy you shouldn't care if your privacy is violated.

 

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Where did I say this? That was done at the hand Socialist POTUS FDR.  It is also much different than what we have been discussing. Trying to claim someone said something they didn't is a tactic used by both Communists and Nazis.

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Where did I say this? That was done at the hand Socialist POTUS FDR.  It is also much different than what we have been discussing. Trying to claim someone said something they didn't is a tactic used by both Communists and Nazis.
Now I re-read it again. So you were saying if Americans helped Germany or Japan it was ok to treat them differently?

Wasn't putting words in your mouth. That is why I said I didn't fully understand.

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2 hours ago, M4BGRINGO said:

Hey, does this mean we can buy military weapons if we agree to follow the direction of the Continental Congress? 

Can we join the National Guard and buy an M16?  :)

If we followed the Constitution, we could buy more than that.

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You can also buy grenades in free America. Even the ones you launch from a rifle. Catch is its a $200 tax stamp per $100 grenade. Thus why most guys launch dummy grenades with white powder inside. I assume most tank shells also require individual tax stamps.

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Looking to sell majority of my guns in the next few months.  Just wondering what our options are as far as magazines that can hold more than 10.  Do they need to be converted to hold 10 rounds before the sale, or can the new owner take possession and do it themselves?  

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