P2P references

[revenger 473]

I was wondering recently about the requirements of the 2 references on the StS-033 form,    my question is since NJ does not disclose the names of the politicians that have CCW permits through the OPRA  but we have to disclose to others as well as employers that we own or will shortly be owning guns wouldn't that render that top secret information invalid as an excuse for the state to not disclose the info to the public.      so the way I see it either they have to stop asking for 3rd party references or disclose to the public through OPRA who has a permit.   I would put a big sign on my front lawn about my gun ownership if I had the list of the scumbag politicians in NJ who infringe on our rights.    any legal scholars have any input, should ANJRPC / NRA look into this angle or has it already been addressed.       

I think of it as a prosecutor asking a question in a court room of a defendant and opening up a line of questioning for the defense.   The state opened the door to full disclosure by requiring us to disclose to two people as well as employers  about our intentions to own / buy / posses / and   exercise our constitutional rights.    

[mossburger 406]

I've been saying this for years!

[fslater 62]

I forget whats on that letter to references. It askes about your character, but does it "specify" what for? Even if it says something like "would this person pose a danger by possessing a firearm" they might get off on a technicality being it just asks a question and does not specifically say you have or are attempting to get a firearm. 

[BobA 1,235]

Link to reference letter:

https://npd.newarkpublicsafety.org/assets/docs/forms/firearms/firsttimeapp/firearms_reference_letter_201607.pdf.

 

BTW I use the same references every time.

[NJGF 375]

Is this the same or similar to the letter that goes to your current employer?

[BobA 1,235]

I deal with NJSP.  Two different barracks and never had the employer thing.  I know that some Chiefs do that but I'm not sure they can do that legally.   But trying to stop them will only get your chain yanked. I'm under them impression that sometime last year they got a letter from the AG telling them to stop.  Could be wrong about the letter though.

[Sniper 6,372]

32 minutes ago, NJGF said:

Is this the same or similar to the letter that goes to your current employer?

I've left the area for employer blank, it's none of their business.

 

[BobA 1,235]

Actually looking over my paperwork They did ask my employer but they never contacted them.

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

The reference and employer requirements on the STS-033 are probably the most abused pieces of information garnered from that form. This is as a result of having 500+ municipalities that issue permits and FPID's and their individual interpretation of how they are supposed to use the information gained.

The employer requirement is to be used for employment verification ONLY. It is not to be used as a defacto reference, nor should the reason for the inquiry ever be disclosed.

The questionnaires that some PD's send out to references likewise should not disclose the reason. These are for character reference purposes. The legality of the such letters or questionnaires is questionable. They may be considered an illegal additional requirement or form. My township stopped using them and I understand it was as a result of being contacted by the State AG.

Here is the language in the Administrative Code that bears on the privacy of your application and, by my interpretation, means the fact that firearm permits are involved should never be disclosed because they are breeching confidentiality in violation of NJAC 13:54-1.15, which states: Any background investigation conducted by the chief of police, the Superintendent or the county prosecutor, of any applicant for a permit, firearms identification card license, or registration, in accordance with the requirements of this chapter, is not a public record and shall not be disclosed to any person not authorized by law or this chapter to have access to such investigation, including the applicant. Any application for a permit, firearms identification card, or license, and any document reflecting the issuance or denial of such permit, firearms identification card, or license, and any permit, firearms identification card, license, certification, certificate, form of register, or registration statement, maintained by any State or municipal governmental agency, is not a public record and shall not be disclosed to any person not authorized by law or this chapter to have access to such documentation, including the applicant, except on the request of persons acting in their governmental capacities for purposes of the administration of justice.

IANAL

Adios,

Pizza Bob

 

[mossburger 406]

Unfortubately most of the questionnaires I have seen make it pretty obvious what kind of application this is.

This places a huge hurdle and intimidation factor on potentially hundreds of thousands of people in NJ who work at large corporations. When the letter isn't going to their boss but instead the HR Dept. of a company with tens of thousands of employees and very liberal policies. I know many people first hand who have been scared off by this, however right or wrong this may be.

This places an undue burden on many people, not coincidentally NJ is full of such companies and such individuals are often not the stereotypical gun owner but in fact the sort of non stereotypical, diverse individuals to which having a healthy 2A relies on. 

This is intimidation by design.

[Zeke 5,504]

2 minutes ago, mossburger said:

Unfortubately most of the questionnaires I have seen make it pretty obvious what kind of application this is.

This places a huge hurdle and intimidation factor on potentially hundreds of thousands of people in NJ who work at large corporations. When the letter isn't going to their boss but instead the HR Dept. of a company with tens of thousands of employees and very liberal policies. I know many people first hand who have been scared off by this, however right or wrong this may be.

This places an undue burden on many people, not coincidentally NJ is full of such companies and such individuals are often not the stereotypical gun owner but in fact the sort of non stereotypical, diverse individuals to which having a healthy 2A relies on. 

This is intimidation by design.

It’s interesting to correlate what you are saying and what the DC judge said a fear years ago “ intentionally suppressing citizen rights through an air of misinformation and obstruction “ something like that..

[mossburger 406]

34 minutes ago, Zeke said:

It’s interesting to correlate what you are saying and what the DC judge said a fear years ago “ intentionally suppressing citizen rights through an air of misinformation and obstruction “ something like that..

Yep not to soapbox but these are the suits we should be pursuing. Target the laws which have a basis in intimidation and racial bias. References, employer letters, the FID system itself, etc. Use their own rhetoric of diversity and inclusion against them. We need a better strategy.

[chocodove 65]

I don’t understand how the employer part in particular is in any way constitutional. I am relatively new to firearms and made the mistake of not requesting multiple permits when I got my FID a few months ago. Of course now I want a few more and when my employer (a pretty liberal organization in NYC) received another form it was a really awkward conversation. Even for the first one they said it was the first time they had ever received anything like that.

 

What I choose to legally do or buy in my spare time is none of my employer’s business, never mind that it is my right to do so.

 

 

[mossburger 406]

Also keep in mind privacy and the right to it, is the foundation upon which Roe v. Wade is built.

Here's another fun one, there is an NJ AG directive essentially calling for non-enforcement of NJ gun control laws on non-NJ residents. Tell me how that one can withstand a challenge based on 14th amendment? 

Use their own words against them IMO.

[Zeke 5,504]

9 minutes ago, mossburger said:

Yep not to soapbox but these are the suits we should be pursuing. Target the laws which have a basis in intimidation and racial bias. References, employer letters, the FID system itself, etc. Use their own rhetoric of diversity and inclusion against them. We need a better strategy.

There’s a lot of things we need to sue to correct. And it’s looking like now the timing is perfect. Speak less, donate more( not directed at you per se)

[capt14k 2,052]

Yep not to soapbox but these are the suits we should be pursuing. Target the laws which have a basis in intimidation and racial bias. References, employer letters, the FID system itself, etc. Use their own rhetoric of diversity and inclusion against them. We need a better strategy.

IMO ANJRPC is following the same failed strategy. A CCW lawsuit here and there is not going to cut it. At least there is the magazine restriction injunction, but where are the injunctions for the other laws that were passed? Where are the other lawsuits for existing laws?


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[Regular Guy 264]

I've wondered about the employer question too.  I don't see how the employer question is relevant on anything firearm related.  I'm military and my employer has let me play with guns that the state won't let me sniff when I'm off duty so I never fussed about it.  But I agree it, should not even be asked.  

[revenger 473]

I have often wondered why we wait for a case to come to us rather than us going after every single loose thread that is out there.  Why has no organization challenged Burton v. Sills where it seems a lot of the  states arguments were based on the militia,   We now have Heller which states 2A is an Individuals right and not a militia. should have been overturned immediately.

Why dont we start attacking them on every front.  

[10X 3,296]

I’m fortunate that the towns I’ve lived in here never checked with my employers.  I always listed my office number on the form, figuring I could either confirm my employment, or if pressed, transfer the call to HR.  I never received a call.  

[mossburger 406]

2 hours ago, capt14k said:

 

IMO ANJRPC is following the same failed strategy. A CCW lawsuit here and there is not going to cut it. At least there is the magazine restriction injunction, but where are the injunctions for the other laws that were passed? Where are the other lawsuits for existing laws?


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ANJRPC is basically hospice care for gun rights. Meaningless CCW suits and magazine injunctions just to make people feel better.

I dream of a decentralized, agressive, member run organization that would bring suits against the entire system, not just feel good BS. Burton v Sills, common usage, privacy, etc.

[Mrs. Peel 7,157]

9 hours ago, capt14k said:

IMO ANJRPC is following the same failed strategy. A CCW lawsuit here and there is not going to cut it. At least there is the magazine restriction injunction, but where are the injunctions for the other laws that were passed? Where are the other lawsuits for existing laws? 

 

I'm not trying to pick a fight... but as someone else on here pointed out recently... some folks on here were complaining bitterly under the Christie administration that ANJRPC wasn't "doing enough" - now that they have lawsuits + an injunction filed almost immediately after laws were signed by Murphy, you and others are still complaining they're not "doing enough".  

7 hours ago, mossburger said:

ANJRPC is basically hospice care for gun rights. Meaningless CCW suits and magazine injunctions just to make people feel better.

I dream of a decentralized, agressive, member run organization that would bring suits against the entire system, not just feel good BS. Burton v Sills, common usage, privacy, etc.

Again, I don't discount your frustration either... but that said, if you and Capt14K both feel that strongly about it, I respectfully ask... what are you doing about it? I mean, didn't Mark Cheeseman recently start a non-profit that is specifically set up to fund individuals' lawsuits? So, to both you and Capt14k - what's stopping you? If you think there's an angle that ANJRPC is not covering, I would ask: first, have you reached out to them? (There may be other suits in the pipeline we don't know about). And if there's not, have you reached out to Cheeseman? other 2A groups? And with or without them, what's stopping you as individuals from crowdsourcing some funding and filing a lawsuit yourself (or with a small like-minded group of individuals)? I'm not saying it would be easy - but it's certainly doable. You certainly wouldn't be the first or the last American(s) to do it.  Look at some of the biggest recent Supreme Court cases - Heller, Masterpiece Bakeshop --- arguably, these cases started with one ticked off American who said "enough already".

If you guys don't think they're doing "enough" - why not supplement their efforts?

[capt14k 2,052]

Again, I don't discount your frustration either... but that said, if you and Capt14K both feel that strongly about it, I respectfully ask... what are you doing about it? I mean, didn't Mark Cheeseman recently start a non-profit that is specifically set up to fund individuals' lawsuits? So, to both you and Capt14k - what's stopping you? If you think there's an angle that ANJRPC is not covering, I would ask: first, have you reached out to them? (There may be other suits in the pipeline we don't know about). And if there's not, have you reached out to Cheeseman? other 2A groups? And with or without them, what's stopping you as individuals from crowdsourcing some funding and filing a lawsuit yourself (or with a small like-minded group of individuals)? I'm not saying it would be easy - but it's certainly doable. You certainly wouldn't be the first or the last American(s) to do it.  Look at some of the biggest recent Supreme Court cases - Heller, Masterpiece Bakeshop --- arguably, these cases started with one ticked off American who said "enough already". If you guys don't think they're doing "enough" - why not supplement their efforts?   

 

To answer your question again.  Yes I have donated money to both CNJFO and Mark Cheeseman go fund me directly. 

 

I am a forced member of the NRA. I am happy with them nationally.

 

 

ANJRPC has filed an injunction for the magazines. I am happy about that. Their CCW lawsuit I am not as thrilled about, because they had a good one with Pantano and didn't support it. There are plenty of other lawsuits that can and should be filed.

 

 

I tried contacting SAF and GOA multiple times and it seems they don't have any interest in NJ. Though they did file an injunction in Illinois.

 

 

2A Groups are supposed to be the ones we donate money to and with all that money they file the lawsuits. If they are not filing lawsuits why exactly are we donating money? Yes Cheeseman went his own route. That is great that he has the time and some of the resources to do so. Yet he is doing so with little support from ANJRPC. Anthony and Scott Bach made personal donations, but there is not even a mention of the suit last time I checked ANJRPC website.

 

 

As of now the only one getting my money in this state is CNJFO, and I don't expect them to file lawsuits. They don't have the coffers that ANJRPC does.

 

 

I noticed NJ2AS has been quiet lately. Curious as to why.

 

 

Those other suits did not start with one ticked off American they were funded by different groups and individuals. Masterpiece Cake had ADF (Alliance Defending Freedom) footing the bill.

 

Heller was funded by attorneys Alan Gura and Clark Neilly, and Robert Levy of the CATO Institute. They sued for $3.5M of which $3.1M in attorney fees after they won and were awarded $1.1M of which $840,000 was attorney fees. The attorneys will asking for $589/hr they got $159/hr.

 

 

 

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[Mrs. Peel 7,157]

8 minutes ago, capt14k said:

To answer your question again. Yes I have donated money to both CNJFO and Mark Cheeseman go fund me directly.

I am a forced member of the NRA. I am happy with them nationally. 

ANJRPC has filed an injunction for the magazines. I am happy about that. Their CCW lawsuit I am not as thrilled about, because they had a good one with Pantano and didn't support it. There are plenty of other lawsuits that can and should be filed. Do you know for a fact that there's not more in the pipeline? I know I don't.

I tried contacting SAF and GOA multiple times and it seems they don't have any interest in NJ. Though they did file an injunction in Illinois. 

2A Groups are supposed to be the ones we donate money to and with all that money they file the lawsuits. If they are not filing lawsuits why exactly are we donating money? Yes, but now ANJRPC is filing lawsuits! That's my point. Is there some magic number of cases that gets them back into your good graces? 3? 4? 10?   Yes Cheeseman went his own route. That is great that he has the time and some of the resources to do so. Yet he is doing so with little support from ANJRPC. Anthony and Scott Bach made personal donations, but there is not even a mention of the suit last time I checked ANJRPC website. They are close-to-the-vest on their communications. Honestly?... I don't know how much you can or can't read into what is on their website. Just my observation. They don't telegraph much.

As of now the only one getting my money in this state is CNJFO, and I don't expect them to file lawsuits. They don't have the coffers that ANJRPC does.

I noticed NJ2AS has been quiet lately. Curious as to why. My opinion? Like the sun rising in the east, Alex will find a way to get publicity for himself/2A, rest assured! 

Those other suits did not start with one ticked off American they were funded by different groups and individuals. Masterpiece Cake had ADF (Alliance Defending Freedom) footing the bill.  Heller was funded by attorneys Alan Gura and Clark Neilly, and Robert Levy of the CATO Institute. Getting one or more wealthy donors to support your case is part of the challenge. It still begins with an unconstitutional act again one or more persons. 

 

[capt14k 2,052]

 

I know for a fact they have had decades and filed nothing except CCW suits that all ended the same.


It would take at least a half a dozen lawsuits.


I can read into Cheeseman having to crowd fund and them not promoting his suit as they aren't backing him.


Yes money is needed. New 2A group whose sole purpose is lawsuits is needed.


What ever happened to the guy before Rubian with NJ2AS? Its been a couple weeks since they posted anything. Last post promised lawsuits. I guess we will see.


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[mossburger 406]

It's not that they're filing suits, it's that they're not filing the right ones. It's been ten years since Heller, and nothing challenging common use, its been decades and nothing challenging the systematic intimidation of the permit process, the list goes on.

Now we have a magazine injunction filed. At best, it lets people keep less neutered magazines and neuters future ones. More likely, it goes right in the trash. It may sound exciting but in the grand scheme, it's nothing.

Meanwhile the witch hunt laws begin without a challenge, we have seen in NY far more people lose their rights to the witch hunt laws, than to the SAFE act. 

There are numerous large, sweeping, clear cut violations that get ignored. Decade after decade. Things that if a completely uneducated person  like me sees, ones that any lawyer or activist who was actually trying would of course see. Too obvious to miss.

Not sure how long you've been a gun owner Ms. Peel but after a few decades, many of us start to wonder if ANJRPC et. All are just hospice care for gun rights. Or controlled opposition. Or maybe just rotten to the core, content to let this whole black rifle fad of a storm blow over and go back to the good ol' days of just shooting lever actions in the woods. 

[capt14k 2,052]

It's not that they're filing suits, it's that they're not filing the right ones. It's been ten years since Heller, and nothing challenging common use, its been decades and nothing challenging the systematic intimidation of the permit process, the list goes on.

Now we have a magazine injunction filed. At best, it lets people keep less neutered magazines and neuters future ones. More likely, it goes right in the trash. It may sound exciting but in the grand scheme, it's nothing.

Meanwhile the witch hunt laws begin without a challenge, we have seen in NY far more people lose their rights to the witch hunt laws, than to the SAFE act. 

There are numerous large, sweeping, clear cut violations that get ignored. Decade after decade. Things that if a completely uneducated person  like me sees, ones that any lawyer or activist who was actually trying would of course see. Too obvious to miss.

Not sure how long you've been a gun owner Ms. Peel but after a few decades, many of us start to wonder if ANJRPC et. All are just hospice care for gun rights. Or controlled opposition. Or maybe just rotten to the core, content to let this whole black rifle fad of a storm blow over and go back to the good ol' days of just shooting lever actions in the woods. 

 

One thing to think about is if the right lawsuits are filed Scott Bach is out $350k a year.

 

Also makes you wonder why cures for cancer are repressed. If cancer was actually cured how many would be out millions?

 

 

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[mossburger 406]

1 minute ago, capt14k said:

 

One thing to think about is if the right lawsuits are filed Scott Bach is out $350k a year.


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Yep. Why cure the disease when you can just treat it indefinitely, and at great profit?

Just think, a temporary 2-3 year pay cut could fund any lawsuit under the sun.

[capt14k 2,052]

Yep. Why cure the disease when you can just treat it indefinitely, and at great profit?
Just think, a temporary 2-3 year pay cut could fund any lawsuit under the sun.

Exactly. Heller in the end cost $1.1M almost exactly 3 years salary.

Yet we should all keep donating time and money to fund lawsuits. Even though they won't file the lawsuits that can win and make a difference. They have had 28 years to file lawsuits.


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[capt14k 2,052]

SAF was part of the Muller suit that became Drake. Are they involved this time around?


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[Mrs. Peel 7,157]

2 hours ago, mossburger said:

Not sure how long you've been a gun owner Ms. Peel but after a few decades, many of us start to wonder if ANJRPC et. All are just hospice care for gun rights. Or controlled opposition. Or maybe just rotten to the core, content to let this whole black rifle fad of a storm blow over and go back to the good ol' days of just shooting lever actions in the woods. 

I've only been a gun owner a couple of years. So, no, I haven't earned your full-blown cynicism yet, LOL. And I'm no lawyer, no legal strategist... I admit that. But, I do have common sense so I ask this: when should an org file lawsuits in your opinion(s)? Should they do it when they know for a fact that BOTH the appeals court AND the Supreme Court (in the unlikely circumstance that they take your case) are knowingly stacked against the case? (Isn't that just throwing legal funds away just to "make the crowd feel good"?) That seems kind of fruitless to me.

Or, should they wait... tread water... (while taking the abuse of the critics)... and wait for the judicial picture to start shifting in their favor and THEN start filing with their stockpiled war chest? I mean, did we have a time like this in the past?... Where we had an administration that could not be reasoned with but both levels of court were starting to slide in our favor? Were there prior missed opportunities? Maybe. But I also think "striking while the iron is hot" might turn out to be a very good strategy after all. I guess we'll see. We'll see if there are additional cases forthcoming, and we'll see how the cases progress.

At one point I was on the board of a start-up 501(c)3 non-profit and I can tell you this --- it's a LOT harder, costly and time-consuming to start and successfully run a non-profit org than most people realize. Personally? I think it makes more sense to assess the ones we currently have... and if need be, to cajole, shape or direct them from within. You don't like what ANJRPC or another org is doing? Join, attend meetings, speak out, even get on the board if you so desire. That would probably be time better spent that trying to develop yet another org from scratch. That said, if you guys think you can form a better org --- godspeed. I just think that everyone who complains on here should just make sure to actually DO something (not at all saying that you 2 aren't). I am merely pointing out that - in general - it's easier to criticize these groups then to lend our talents/dollars/time to help them work at their best level. Now - much to your delight - I'm going to shut up, LOL!!