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For Those Moving out of PRNJ

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So what do I do if I want to send my brother my 870? He's in Florida and I'm not selling it to him, I'm just giving it to him. Do I have to send it to an FFL in Florida for him to pick up? He's a police officer and even his fellow officers aren't sure how to handle it on my end.

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7 minutes ago, Lostboy said:

So what do I do if I want to send my brother my 870? He's in Florida and I'm not selling it to him, I'm just giving it to him. Do I have to send it to an FFL in Florida for him to pick up? He's a police officer and even his fellow officers aren't sure how to handle it on my end.

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Interstate transfer( sale regardless) go through ffl . Unless you’re dead and willed it him , or he’s your only kin and your dead

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5 hours ago, Peter Goldwing said:

Lets talk handguns only.

You cannot buy one in Fl and take possession of it here in FL. This is Federal Law which applies to all states. You have to have the gun delivered to your state to a dealer that has a Federal Firearms License. THAT dealer has to comply with Federal and State Laws. In your case he shouldn't hand you a gun you purchased in FL till you will show him proof of NJ residence along with a NJ permit  allowing you to acquire a gun. 

The only way you can legally obtain a gun without a permit to purchase is thru inheritance after YOUR PARENT passed away.

If  those guns were purchased without you having  valid at least A DOZEN FPID you did that illegally as NJ laws are concerned. ( i think you need one permit to purchase one gun)

I look into these laws very closely since I travel a lot thru beautiful USA.

Next Summer I plan a trip to Alaska and I cannot  legally buy a gun in there even thou I have a CCW here in FL and Alaska recognizes my permit.  I only can ship one in there.

 

 

 

Residency requirements are different state to state, and even the Federal BATF residency requirements are different.  One needs to review those rules when making statements.

FL does not care about NJ laws period.  You cannot use a NJ P2P out of state.  Yes, by Federal law you cannot purchase a handgun out of your state of residency.  But what defines residency in State or Federal BATF regulations is what counts.

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I suggest you review ATF Ruling 2010-6, which says in part:

"ATF has previously addressed the eligibility of individuals to acquire firearms who maintain residences in more than one State. Federal regulations at 27 CFR 478.11 (definition of State of Residence), Example 2, clarify that a U.S. citizen with homes in two States may, during the period of time the person actually resides in a particular State, purchase a firearm in that State. See also ATF Publication 5300.4 (2005), Question and Answer B12, page 179. Similarly, in ATF Ruling 80-21 (ATFB 1980-4, 25), ATF held that, during the time college students actually reside in a college dormitory or at an off-campus location, they are considered residents of the State where the on-campus or off-campus housing is located." (underline mine)

When I reside in PA at my second home the ATF says I'm allowed to buy firearms. One issue is in the case of handguns the PA State Police want to see a PA drivers license on the background check, since they are the intermediary to the federal system. So they effectively supersede the ATF ruling with their requirement. PA FFLs will not accept any other proof-of-residency documents for a hand gun purchase other than a PA DL.

I would also refer you to the concepts of 'domicile' vs. 'residency'. I can have several residences, but only one domicile. Usually the domicile is the determinant for tax purposes.

At some point I may very well acquire a PA DL. That does not in and of itself establish my 'domicile'. Only one of several possible 'residencies'. 

 

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1 minute ago, 45Doll said:

I suggest you review ATF Ruling 2010-6, which says in part:

"ATF has previously addressed the eligibility of individuals to acquire firearms who maintain residences in more than one State. Federal regulations at 27 CFR 478.11 (definition of State of Residence), Example 2, clarify that a U.S. citizen with homes in two States may, during the period of time the person actually resides in a particular State, purchase a firearm in that State. See also ATF Publication 5300.4 (2005), Question and Answer B12, page 179. Similarly, in ATF Ruling 80-21 (ATFB 1980-4, 25), ATF held that, during the time college students actually reside in a college dormitory or at an off-campus location, they are considered residents of the State where the on-campus or off-campus housing is located." (underline mine)

When I reside in PA at my second home the ATF says I'm allowed to buy firearms. One issue is in the case of handguns the PA State Police want to see a PA drivers license on the background check, since they are the intermediary to the federal system. So they effectively supersede the ATF ruling with their requirement. PA FFLs will not accept any other proof-of-residency documents for a hand gun purchase other than a PA DL.

I would also refer you to the concepts of 'domicile' vs. 'residency'. I can have several residences, but only one domicile. Usually the domicile is the determinant for tax purposes.

At some point I may very well acquire a PA DL. That does not in and of itself establish my 'domicile'. Only one of several possible 'residencies'. 

 

Jus pa domicile. Unless you gonna Fl domicile.

and thank you for reminding me of domicile v residence. 

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19 hours ago, Persona non grata said:

NJ permit to carry covers handgun possession, while your P2P only covers purchase. In order to possess a handgun within the state of NJ, you must either have a permit to carry, or be covered under an exemption, which is in all actuality, a defense in court. Technically speaking, you and every handgun owner in the state is in violation of NJSA 2C:39-5b. You don't go to jail because you are covered under one of the exemptions of NJSA 2C:39-6. You must be in violation of 2C:39-5 to be covered under an exemption of 2C:39-6.

He isn't wrong, just could have been worded better.

Agree..... 
Simply put, a ccw w/o an FPID or PPP is very rare. Just a bad example.

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15 hours ago, T Bill said:

Residency requirements are different state to state, and even the Federal BATF residency requirements are different.  One needs to review those rules when making statements.

FL does not care about NJ laws period.  You cannot use a NJ P2P out of state.  Yes, by Federal law you cannot purchase a handgun out of your state of residency.  But what defines residency in State or Federal BATF regulations is what counts.

ATF is pretty clear in residency on the form 4473. I’ve written about it many times here. Read the details in explanation 18b on the form. 

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17 hours ago, Zeke said:

Interstate transfer( sale regardless) go through ffl . Unless you’re dead and willed it him , or he’s your only kin and your dead

I would choose the FFL route over death.  But that's just me.

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1 minute ago, Scorpio64 said:

Will (or can) PA FFLs accept a PA DMV issued ID card?

I don't know. They should, since that's the ID vehicle for people who don't drive.

However, if I recall correctly, the PA DMV will not issue either a DL or ID card to you if you hold a DL or ID card in another state. You would have to surrender the latter to get the former.

Check the application form and page at the PA DMV.

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Will (or can) PA FFLs accept a PA DMV issued ID card?


I don’t know but years ago I had SC DL and never turned in my NJ one. Granted the NJ expired less than a year after I got my SC DL. Didn’t get a NJ one again til SC expired but NJ made me turn in my SC DL.


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5 minutes ago, PK90 said:

How do you turn in something you lost?

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Knowing NJ, they'd make you replace the lost one just to turn it in. same dumbass logic as turning in your fpid card after you move out of state.

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29 minutes ago, PK90 said:

How do you turn in something you lost?

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Well, if they still have records... they can find it.  

I had left NJ after graduating HS to go to college out in Illinois. And I stayed in Illinois for 5 years after graduating college. By then, I had obtained an Illinois DL, as well as my first US Passport.

Upon moving back home to NJ after college and 5 years of work, I happened upon my local branch of (formerly) the NJ DMV. Oddly enough, I remembered my old DL# and, sure enough, they found it in their computer system and revived it! I only had to turn in my Illinois license.

Of course, now in FL, I turned that NJ DL in to get my FL license! :dancer:

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2 hours ago, PK90 said:

WHY?

[insert double face palm here]

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Well if you don't turn it in you probably have to take a written test and probably a road test.  I just turned mine in and all I had to do was read "line 5" on their vision machine and presto had my license.

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On 7/5/2018 at 5:36 PM, T Bill said:

Residency requirements are different state to state, and even the Federal BATF residency requirements are different.  One needs to review those rules when making statements.

FL does not care about NJ laws period.  You cannot use a NJ P2P out of state.  Yes, by Federal law you cannot purchase a handgun out of your state of residency.  But what defines residency in State or Federal BATF regulations is what counts.

You are making things more complicated than it should be.

You can only be resident in one state. To acquire residency some or all states require you to live in that state for a minimum amount of time. (2 months?)The states law requires that you change your D/L to your state of residency after a certain amount of time ( 2 months?)

You cannot have 2 D/L at the same time. Fl used to have a FL license in addition  to your license for the snow birds but it has done away with it.

The   Dealer in your state will hand you the gun only if you show him your ID  D/L which is a proof of residency.

You can only vote in your state of residency. 

Of course you can complicate things more by saying you dont really have a residency. You are homeless moving from state to state and dont even own a car, vote or pay taxes.

You might even claim Sovereign Citizen and say that no laws or licenses apply to you.

 
 

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You are making things more complicated than it should be.
You can only be resident in one state. To acquire residency some or all states require you to live in that state for a minimum amount of time. (2 months?)The states law requires that you change your D/L to your state of residency after a certain amount of time ( 2 months?)
You cannot have 2 D/L at the same time. Fl used to have a FL license in addition  to your license for the snow birds but it has done away with it.
The   Dealer in your state will hand you the gun only if you show him your ID  D/L which is a proof of residency.
You can only vote in your state of residency. 
Of course you can complicate things more by saying you dont really have a residency. You are homeless moving from state to state and dont even own a car, vote or pay taxes.
You might even claim Sovereign Citizen and say that no laws or licenses apply to you.
   
Aren't we discussing firearm purchases while being a resident? You are a resident in any state that you live on any given day with proof issued by the government.

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Our lawyer has a FL driver's license, is registered to vote in FL and has cars he uses in FL registered in FL and cars he uses in NJ registered in NJ.

As I understand it (and I'm not a lawyer, but I did have to stay in Holiday Inns more than once), if one is not actually present in New Jersey for 183 days of the year, one need not be a New Jersey resident, and not subject to New Jersey income taxes and death taxes. As an added benefit, one is not necessarily subject to New Jersey's firearms purchasing laws.

I've wondered if all of the liberal New Jersey entertainers who spend much time on tour declare New Jersey as their legal place of residence.

Or have made a low tax state their legal place of residence.

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Bob2222 said:

Our lawyer has a FL driver's license, is registered to vote in FL and has cars he uses in FL registered in FL and cars he uses in NJ registered in NJ.

As I understand it (and I'm not a lawyer, but I did have to stay in Holiday Inns more than once), if one is not actually present in New Jersey for 183 days of the year, one need not be a New Jersey resident, and not subject to New Jersey income taxes and death taxes. As an added benefit, one is not necessarily subject to New Jersey's firearms purchasing laws.

I've wondered if all of the liberal New Jersey entertainers who spend much time on tour declare New Jersey as their legal place of residence.

Or have made a low tax state their legal place of residence.

 

 

 

 

 

Im like your lawyer, I have cars registered in both places.  The interstate gun purchasing law applies both, where you buy it and where you receive it.

Your lawyer can buy a gun in FL but cannot take possession of it in NJ. He cannot purchase a hand gun in NJ and take possession of it in there

Taxes are paid where you earn the money or in the state with higher taxes.. FL has no state income tax therefore NJ charges me on I what earn in there. If FL would have a higher state tax than NJ they will tax me the difference between NJ tax and FL tax.

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19 minutes ago, Peter Goldwing said:

m like your lawyer, I have cars registered in both places.  The interstate gun purchasing law applies both, where you buy it and where you receive it.

Your lawyer can buy a gun in FL but cannot take possession of it in NJ. He cannot purchase a hand gun in NJ and take possession of it in there

Taxes are paid where you earn the money or in the state with higher taxes.. FL has no state income tax therefore NJ charges me on I what earn in there. If FL would have a higher state tax than NJ they will tax me the difference between NJ tax and FL tax.

That's why I said "not necessarily".

Taxes and cost of living are much more significant issues, but the New Jersey firearms laws are not inconsequential. The saner Florida firearms laws are icing on the cake, so to speak.

Since it's a gazillion times more difficult for a New Jersey resident to (legally) buy a handgun in New Jersey than it is for a Florida resident to (legally) buy a handgun in Florida, why would anyone want to, given the choice?

When we did our taxes (including NJ) this year, our lawyer was physically in Florida. We teleconferenced and Fedexed. Since he's no longer building his practice, he doesn't need a fixed place of business in New Jersey. 

Since my own business is located on my laptop, it would be fairly easy to move my business (and my residency) to some other state.

I haven't (yet) only because I don't have a physical residence in a low tax state (yet).

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On 7/6/2018 at 10:45 PM, Peter Goldwing said:

You are making things more complicated than it should be.

You can only be resident in one state. To acquire residency some or all states require you to live in that state for a minimum amount of time. (2 months?)The states law requires that you change your D/L to your state of residency after a certain amount of time ( 2 months?)

You cannot have 2 D/L at the same time. Fl used to have a FL license in addition  to your license for the snow birds but it has done away with it.

 

The patriot act removed the ability to have more than one D/L but the rest of your comments are incorrect.   You could have a primary residence in N.J. and a beach home in Delaware. The day you are at your beach home you are resident Delaware and can purchase firearms there following the DE state laws.   You can even bring them back to NJ, if they are compliant with N.J. law, with no issue or registration.   I’ve done this for years with my very part time home in FL.  

 

Residency for tax purposes is a different discussion but before I moved to FL I was resident of FL every day that I spent time there.  I’ve purchase firearms in FL with my N.J. d/l and firearms in N.J. with my FL d/l.  There are no issues whatsoever. 

21 hours ago, Peter Goldwing said:

Im like your lawyer, I have cars registered in both places.  The interstate gun purchasing law applies both, where you buy it and where you receive it.

Your lawyer can buy a gun in FL but cannot take possession of it in NJ. He cannot purchase a hand gun in NJ and take possession of it in there

Taxes are paid where you earn the money or in the state with higher taxes.. FL has no state income tax therefore NJ charges me on I what earn in there. If FL would have a higher state tax than NJ they will tax me the difference between NJ tax and FL tax.

Your reasoning on taxes is incorrect.  States have residency based in time for income purposes and it has nothing to do with which state has a higher tax rate. 

If you work in NY and live in N.J. you pay both taxes.  However you can net your NY payment against N.J. and you pay the difference to N.J.   

If you live in PA and work in NJ you pay PA state tax, which is lower, than N.J. state tax.  

I spent less than 100 days in N.J. this year and will not pay them any state tax.  I will pay 0 FL state tax because i spent less than 165 days in N.J.   I will pay some NyS taxes this year because NY requires you report any days worked in NY. I will have worked about 40 business days there this year. 

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20 hours ago, Rob0115 said:

The patriot act removed the ability to have more than one D/L but the rest of your comments are incorrect.   You could have a primary residence in N.J. and a beach home in Delaware. The day you are at your beach home you are resident Delaware and can purchase firearms there following the DE state laws.   You can even bring them back to NJ, if they are compliant with N.J. law, with no issue or registration.   I’ve done this for years with my very part time home in FL.  

 

Residency for tax purposes is a different discussion but before I moved to FL I was resident of FL every day that I spent time there.  I’ve purchase firearms in FL with my N.J. d/l and firearms in N.J. with my FL d/l.  There are no issues whatsoever. 

Your reasoning on taxes is incorrect.  States have residency based in time for income purposes and it has nothing to do with which state has a higher tax rate. 

If you work in NY and live in N.J. you pay both taxes.  However you can net your NY payment against N.J. and you pay the difference to N.J.   

If you live in PA and work in NJ you pay PA state tax, which is lower, than N.J. state tax.  

I spent less than 100 days in N.J. this year and will not pay them any state tax.  I will pay 0 FL state tax because i spent less than 165 days in N.J.   I will pay some NyS taxes this year because NY requires you report any days worked in NY. I will have worked about 40 business days there this year. 

You are wrong in  so many ways that  dont have time to answer all. So I guess if you have 50 houses  one of each state you can be a resident of the state you choose for that day? A house anyplace does not grant you a residency anywhere.   You are a resident of the state where you are allowed to vote in.

As I explained before residency is gained by being in a certain state for a period of time. If you dont think so go to Alaska and collect your check from the state for oil revenue.

This is my last post on this subject. Take care

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Some of you are still confusing residency with domicile.

I also suggest you read the statutes and regulations from states you're interested in. Income taxes are usually the focus and where you are domiciled determines where you pay your income tax. (Although there are scenarios where you can be liable for income tax in two or more states.)

One thing is for sure: When I own a home, pay property taxes on it, live in it from time to time, pay its utilities and don't rent it, I'm sure as hell not a guest!

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5 hours ago, Peter Goldwing said:

You are wrong in  so many ways that  dont have time to answer all. So I guess if you have 50 houses  one of each state you can be a resident of the state you choose for that day? A house anyplace does not grant you a residency anywhere.   You are a resident of the state where you are allowed to vote in.

As I explained before residency is gained by being in a certain state for a period of time. If you dont think so go to Alaska and collect your check from the state for oil revenue.

This is my last post on this subject. Take care

https://www.scribd.com/document/176284968/COA-decision-Osterweil-v-Bartlett

Only applies to NY but it's why I have a NY State "Permit To Carry A Pistol" which also authorizes me to purchase handguns In NY even though my voting residence is in NJ.

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34 minutes ago, brucin said:

https://www.scribd.com/document/176284968/COA-decision-Osterweil-v-Bartlett

Only applies to NY but it's why I have a NY State "Permit To Carry A Pistol" which also authorizes me to purchase handguns In NY even though my voting residence is in NJ.

Thanks for that post. That may come in handy for me.

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2 hours ago, brucin said:

https://www.scribd.com/document/176284968/COA-decision-Osterweil-v-Bartlett

Only applies to NY but it's why I have a NY State "Permit To Carry A Pistol" which also authorizes me to purchase handguns In NY even though my voting residence is in NJ.

Interesting read, thanx. Took the guy over 5 yrs thru the legal system to get that ccw!

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21 hours ago, Peter Goldwing said:

You are wrong in  so many ways that  dont have time to answer all. So I guess if you have 50 houses  one of each state you can be a resident of the state you choose for that day? A house anyplace does not grant you a residency anywhere.   You are a resident of the state where you are allowed to vote in.

As I explained before residency is gained by being in a certain state for a period of time. If you dont think so go to Alaska and collect your check from the state for oil revenue.

This is my last post on this subject. Take care

Yes it does and I’ve done this.  No need to be angry because someone corrected your mistake. The following is the explanation for 18b cut and paste from the ATF form 4473:

Question 18.b. Supplemental Documentation:  Licensees may accept a combination of valid government-issued documents to satisfy the identification document requirements of the law.  The valid government-issued photo identification document bearing the name, photograph, date of birth of transferee/buyer may be supplemented by another valid, government-issued document showing the transferee’s/buyer’s residence address.  The supplemental documentation should be recorded in section 18.b., with the issuing authority and type of identification presented.  For example if the transferee/buyer has two States of residence and is trying to buy a handgun in State X, he may provide a driver’s license (showing his name, date of birth, and photograph) issued by State Y and another government-issued document (such as a tax document) from State X showing his residence address.  A valid electronic document from a government website may be used as supplemental documentation provided it contains the tranferee’s/buyer’s name and current residence address   

So yes if you owned a home in every state you could buy a gun whenever you are visiting your home in that particular state.  I’ll repeat, I’ve done this for years and this is probably the 10th time I’ve had to explain this.

Residency for firearms purchases is different than for tax purposes—firearms purchase have no minimum requirement for number of days resident.  Your taxing authority has different requirements, often time based, and are unimportant to this discussion.  

 

 

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12 hours ago, Rob0115 said:

Yes it does and I’ve done this.  No need to be angry because someone corrected your mistake. The following is the explanation for 18b cut and paste from the ATF form 4473:

Question 18.b. Supplemental Documentation:  Licensees may accept a combination of valid government-issued documents to satisfy the identification document requirements of the law.  The valid government-issued photo identification document bearing the name, photograph, date of birth of transferee/buyer may be supplemented by another valid, government-issued document showing the transferee’s/buyer’s residence address.  The supplemental documentation should be recorded in section 18.b., with the issuing authority and type of identification presented.  For example if the transferee/buyer has two States of residence and is trying to buy a handgun in State X, he may provide a driver’s license (showing his name, date of birth, and photograph) issued by State Y and another government-issued document (such as a tax document) from State X showing his residence address.  A valid electronic document from a government website may be used as supplemental documentation provided it contains the tranferee’s/buyer’s name and current residence address   

So yes if you owned a home in every state you could buy a gun whenever you are visiting your home in that particular state.  I’ll repeat, I’ve done this for years and this is probably the 10th time I’ve had to explain this   

Residency for firearms purchases is different than for tax purposes—firearms purchase have no minimum requirement for number of days resident.  Your taxing authority has different requirements, often time based, and are unimportant to this discussion.  

 

 

So much for not commenting anymore. I didnt get mad  just didnt want this to go into a forever argument.

It looks after all that you are right. As a matter of fact when I purchased one gun in Daytona for my wife ( she had a NJ  D/L while I had a FL  D/L,) I told the gun dealer to put the gun in my name since I could prove residency. He said he can put it stright in my wifes name if shes on the house deed. She was and got the gun in her name. Later a friend inquired another dealer and the dealer said YOU MUST HAVE A FL D/L..I thought first dealer made a mistake Apparently the second dealer didnt know the rule

Thank you. 

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53 minutes ago, Peter Goldwing said:

So much for not commenting anymore. I didnt get mad  just didnt want this to go into a forever argument.

It looks after all that you are right. As a matter of fact when I purchased one gun in Daytona for my wife ( she had a NJ  D/L while I had a FL  D/L,) I told the gun dealer to put the gun in my name since I could prove residency. He said he can put it stright in my wifes name if shes on the house deed. She was and got the gun in her name. Later a friend inquired another dealer and the dealer said YOU MUST HAVE A FL D/L..I thought first dealer made a mistake Apparently the second dealer didnt know the rule

Thank you. 

You'd be surprised how many don't the rules, not just in FL.

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