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Knife completely in pocket?

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Sorry if this is in the wrong forum. In another forum someone said putting your knife completely in your pocket versus having it clipped on your pocket will stop you from being hassled in the city. My question is if you get stopped for some other reason and the knife is in your pocket are you now facing a concealed weapon beef? 

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https://www.akti.org/state-knife-laws/new-york/

"The New York Weapons Law applies equally as to concealed or unconcealed knives."

"To protect yourself, the best practice is to never have a knife showing (not even the clip) and to be conservative and only carry a knife you are certain is legal. "

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2 hours ago, NJGF said:

https://www.akti.org/state-knife-laws/new-york/

"The New York Weapons Law applies equally as to concealed or unconcealed knives."

"To protect yourself, the best practice is to never have a knife showing (not even the clip) and to be conservative and only carry a knife you are certain is legal. "

Thank you, i was always curious about this. I was actually worried that having a concealed knife would have more of a negative affect.

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I've carried a decent size folder for years.  Always in the pocket.  The only time I had any attention paid to it when I was going into Ocean County Courthouse.  The Deputy said "Wow that's a big knife" about 4".  I told him I carry it for the screwdriver attachment.  He said okay and gave it back.

 

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4" folder is from the Federal law per ATF guide line for in pocket folders

I have heard that 4 finger crap all my life and have always quoted the federal law as its about the only definitive ruling I have found in regard to max length of a folder

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e. Certain weapons. Any person who knowingly has in his possession any gravity knife, switchblade knife, dagger, dirk, stiletto, billy, blackjack, metal knuckle, sandclub, slingshot, cestus or similar leather band studded with metal filings or razor blades imbedded in wood, ballistic knife, without any explainable lawful purpose, is guilty of a crime of the fourth degree.

https://knifeup.com/new-jersey-knife-laws/

These are the laws as written.  The problem is that explainable lawful purpose is very subjective.  

 

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Self defense is not defined as a valid reason to have a knife which is explicitly prohibited in statute (like a dagger).

Here is a good presentation on knife rights by Evan Nappen at the NJSafe conference in 2016:

 

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also see this

https://www.quora.com/What-are-New-Jerseys-knife-laws

 

The New Jersey legislature has defined weapon as anything “readily capable of lethal use or of inflicting serious bodily injury”. It further states that the term includes gravity knives, switchblade knives, daggers, dirks, stilettos, or other “dangerous” knives. In 1982, in State v. Brown, the New Jersey Appellate Court found that a person does not need to intend to use a knife as a weapon in order for it to be considered a dangerous knife, and therefore a weapon. This decision can make it difficult for a person to determine if a particular knife is legal to own, as it could be considered a dangerous knife, even if the owner has no intention of using it to harm another. However, because New Jersey law allows for the possession of a dangerous knife, by those who have a legal purpose for owning them, any knife may be considered legal if owned for a “lawful purpose”.

Definition of Lawful Purpose:

The phrase “lawful purpose” was challenged in State v. Blaine, when Mr. Blaine was discovered carrying a folding knife with a 4 inch blade. The Court reasoned that because the knife carried by Mr. Blaine was not a gravity knife, switchblade knife, dagger, dirk or stiletto, those knives specifically mentioned by new Jersey statute as weapons, the defendant may escape a guilty finding, if the state cannot prove that he carried the knife for an unlawful purpose. As such, because there was no proof that Mr. Blaine did not carry the knife for a lawful purpose, he could not be found guilty of carrying an illegal weapon. The Blaine Court cited State v. Lee, in which the legislature’s intent, when enacting the law prohibiting the carrying of certain knives

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Just now, BillC. said:

 

The phrase “lawful purpose” was challenged in State v. Blaine, when Mr. Blaine was discovered carrying a folding knife with a 4 inch blade. The Court reasoned that because the knife carried by Mr. Blaine was not a gravity knife, switchblade knife, dagger, dirk or stiletto, those knives specifically mentioned by new Jersey statute as weapons, the defendant may escape a guilty finding, if the state cannot prove that he carried the knife for an unlawful purpose. As such, because there was no proof that Mr. Blaine did not carry the knife for a lawful purpose, he could not be found guilty of carrying an illegal weapon. The Blaine Court cited State v. Lee, in which the legislature’s intent, when enacting the law prohibiting the carrying of certain knives

He was carrying a 4 inch blade.  Nowhere does it say that 4 inches is the maximum length of a blade one can carry lawfully.

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1 hour ago, PK90 said:

City?
4"?
Folding?
Self defense?

Let's make up our own laws. Sheesh.

Let me make myself clearer.

What friggin City is the OP referring to, and what does it matter in NJ?

No where in NJ law does length matter. Maybe it does in your house. :rolleyes: 

Again, folding, straight, switch, or gay blade, it dontfrigginmatter.

Self-defense illegal? :lol:

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PK90, I mostly agree with you, but I believe one can face legal action in NJ by claiming one is carrying a knife for "self defense."  We are expected to be willing victims in this state, not people who can defend ourselves.  I believe a rape whistle is still legal to carry. 

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1 hour ago, Old Glock guy said:

PK90, I mostly agree with you, but I believe one can face legal action in NJ by claiming one is carrying a knife for "self defense."  We are expected to be willing victims in this state, not people who can defend ourselves.  I believe a rape whistle is still legal to carry. 

Is there a legal precedent where someone was charged for something for claiming that a knife they were carrying was for self defense?

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I agree also, the law is vague, which leaves enforcement up to whims of the court. Trying to carry in NYC or any other urban area is a bad idea any way you look at it.

   I thought the discussion was what is legal in NJ. Common sense although fleeting in NJ has to be based on established guide lines. Hence my reference to the federal law.  The BATF is the go to agency to for defining dangerous devices.

NJ says you cannot sell a knife with a blade longer then 5" to a minor under 18 yr old. that's the only place length is mentioned in the law. So OK is over 5" legal for adults? what's reasonable? NJ can and will do what it wants.

 

 

Section 2C:39-3 of the New Jersey Criminal Code makes it illegal to carry "any gravity knife, switchblade knife, dagger, dirk, stiletto . . . without any explainable lawful purpose." Furthermore, you are forbidden from possessing any other weapon "not manifestly appropriate for lawful use." Now the legislators had enough common sense to know that there are legal uses for knives and put in an exception. You are allowed to carry a knife in the woods if you are hunting or on the way to a hunting expedition. Can you carry your handy Swiss Army knife to file your nails or use as an emergency corkscrew, or for any of its other multiple uses? Is your knife "manifestly appropriate for lawful use"?

The problem with the law is that although it defines illegal knives, it does a rather poor job of defining what is legal. That means defining legal gets left to the policeman who sees your prize pocketknife dangling from your key chain and the local judge who hears your case if you are charged with a fourth-degree crime pursuant to the Criminal Code. Take, for example, the young man who made the mistake of carrying a pocketknife in a small town on the New Jersey shore. That mistake cost him an $800 fine. Even though you may be an upstanding citizen with no felonious intent, if you happen to wander into a town that likes receiving revenues from various municipal citations, you may be out of luck. Or a little bit poorer when you leave.

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Is there a legal precedent where someone was charged for something for claiming that a knife they were carrying was for self defense?

1982 State v. Brown, the New Jersey Appellate Court found that a person does not need to intend to use a knife as a weapon in order for it to be considered a dangerous knife, and therefore a weapon. This decision can make it difficult for a person to determine if a particular knife is legal to own, as it could be considered a dangerous knife, even if the owner has no intention of using it to harm another. However, because New Jersey law allows for the possession of a dangerous knife, by those who have a legal purpose for owning them, any knife may be considered legal if owned for a “lawful purpose”.

The phrase “lawful purpose” was challenged in State v. Blaine, when Mr. Blaine was discovered carrying a folding knife with a 4 inch blade. The Court reasoned that because the knife carried by Mr. Blaine was not a gravity knife, switchblade knife, dagger, dirk or stiletto, those knives specifically mentioned by new Jersey statute as weapons, the defendant may escape a guilty finding, if the state cannot prove that he carried the knife for an unlawful purpose

 

the law is clear as mud, your results may vary. 

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1 hour ago, AlexTheSane said:

Is there a legal precedent where someone was charged for something for claiming that a knife they were carrying was for self defense?

According to the state v. Blaine reference, the burden is on the PRNJ to prove that you are carrying the knife with criminal intentions.  If you have a specifically listed knife "gravity knife, dirk, dagger, stiletto, etc" then you would need a reason for carrying a listed "dangerous weapon." Otherwise, if you carry any other knife, you are a law abiding citizen.  

I'm on my way to the grocery store.  I will leave my house with a knife (SOG Escape) and no intent to use it to commit a crime so it's legal.  Should the need arise where I must defend myself, I would choose to use it because I am not breaking a law by defending myself; there is not a law that says I cannot defend myself (if there is, please post it). 

If I happen to be in contact with law enforcement for some other reason and they inquire as to why I have a knife, I would simply answer "I live in the woods, it's just a tool".  Should said law enforcement officer decide that I should be charged as a criminal simply for possessing a knife not listed on the "dangerous knife weapon list", I'm willing to let the lawyers do their research and come to the correct conclusion that my knife is not listed, I had no criminal intent, case closed.     

The legal documents uses a lot of double negatives and excess words which I think confuses things, but the Blaine case set a precedent for applying the law after the Brown case by clarifying the definition of "Dangerous Knife" to be those specifically listed like a dagger or stiletto and it established the fact that the state has a burden to prove criminal intent.  That's huge.  It means you can legally possess the knife as long as you don't have the intent to commit a crime with it.

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16 minutes ago, BillC. said:

Self-defense illegal?

in NJ yes. die if you must, but don't resist

by law there is no self defense in NJ. you cannot use force. you can lock your self in a closet or run. your choice

or am I mistaken ?

you’re in your first obligation is to run and/or hide even in your home. Only if the is no other recourse can you fight back. However you may have to be prepared to show the as proof. If you hide in your closet and the creep leaves you alone but continues to rob you blind so be it. 

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28 minutes ago, BobA said:

you’re in your first obligation is to run and/or hide even in your home. Only if the is no other recourse can you fight back. However you may have to be prepared to show the as proof. If you hide in your closet and the creep leaves you alone but continues to rob you blind so be it. 

You are under no such obligation inside your home if you are in fear for your life or the life of others.

Once the threat is gone, then you can't go after them; if you just finished cleaning your gun in the kitchen and a bad guy breaks in, sees you there, and runs off, you can't chase him down or shoot him in the back (note, the wife threatening to kill you for getting oil on the table may not hold up well as a threat, even though she may be more dangerous to you than the burgler.)

However, if you are always carrying at home and a guy with a knife breaks in and advances, even after shouting to leave/stop/etc, there is nothing saying you must retreat if in fear for your life - drop him. It takes a second to close 20 feet. Same if you hear an unusual noise in your kids room, you aren't going to say "must be nothing, can't do anything about it anyway"

On your property, outside the house, MAY need to retreat if possible, and would depend on circumstances, but the fear for your life and life of others will again come into play...

Please do some research on the subject and verify for yourself. NJ laws are rediculous, but EVEN NJ is not dumb enough to say you must be cowering in a closet before you can defend yourself or others. Spreading these fake "laws" is dangerous and may prevent someone from legally defending themself in their own home.

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ain't life in NJ wonderful.  

EDC is something I have done since I was 8 or 10 years old. You grow up on a farm you use the tools. I don't leave home without it. Sadly, NJ is not what it once was. We can only hope for common sense to prevail.

no I'm not a lawyer, I known members of law enforcement and correction officers. And I know of people that have been convicted for defending their property and themselves. Any way you want to spin it, you will end up in court with the deck stacked against you. How deep are your pockets? Can you afford to defend yourself in court? This is the world we live in now.

yes I was being bit sarcastic when I said you cannot defend yourself in NJ, but can you really? 

 

 

 

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https://www.johnzarych.com/does-new-jersey-have-stand-your-ground-laws/

 

This is from an attorney's web site in Atlantic City.  Near the bottom it talks specifically about home defense and what elements have to be present to legally use of force or retreating from the residence.

 

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51 minutes ago, Malice4you said:

Please do some research on the subject and verify for yourself. NJ laws are rediculous, but EVEN NJ is not dumb enough to say you must be cowering in a closet before you can defend yourself or others. Spreading these fake "laws" is dangerous and may prevent someone from legally defending themself in their own home.

Yes. I’ve seen that. Many times. As chicken liver or hooky as it sounds I’m really not in the position to elaborate but BELIEVE ME be able to prove solidly you were in imminent danger and had no where else to turn. “They” will pull out all the plugs and reach to the moon to prove otherwise. 

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6 hours ago, BillC. said:

 

4" folder is from the Federal law per ATF guide line for in pocket folders

I have heard that 4 finger crap all my life and have always quoted the federal law as its about the only definitive ruling I have found in regard to max length of a folder

What Federal knife law.  The only federal knife law I know of is commonly know as the Switchblade Act (1958?).  It was amended in the 90s to cover  "ballistic" or "Spetsnaz" knives.  It covers interstate transportation.

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I carry a knife every single day, and have since I was like 8 (I’m 52 now). I’ve never been hassled by any LEO in any state for it, even though I wear it clipped to my pocket and visible to God and everyone. I even recently got through security and boarded an aircraft at PHL, without TSA catching it (scary!). No worries, I had no ill intentions...I just forgot it was clipped to my pocket!

The ONLY time any LEO has ever said anything about it was at the Library of Congress a few months back. It was clipped to my pocket when I went through the metal detector to do service to one of my machines there. The cop asked me about it, and I told him it was a ‘tool of the trade’. He let me through no further questions asked. 

I think the law exists for those intending to, or do commit a crime. I doubt seriously any LEO would give a normal Joe on the street any crap about carrying a pocketknife. 

 

 

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