Prices of Black Rifles

[remixer 1,645]

Just now, capt14k said:

Because people won't be scrambling to change mags which will lead to less traffic and interest.


$1,200 would be mid range no? Higher end would be $2k+ like LMT no?

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Depends... I always figured the low end was Sub 600. Mid was the 800 Range higher end was 1700+

We are talking pricing not quality or features... LMT would no doubt be higher end... Just became a dealer of LMT and the prices are 2K plus.

[capt14k 2,052]

Depends... I always figured the low end was Sub 600. Mid was the 800 Range higher end was 1700+
We are talking pricing not quality or features... LMT would no doubt be higher end... Just became a dealer of LMT and the prices are 2K plus.

Sub $600 new I thought was made in China junk.

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[remixer 1,645]

9 minutes ago, capt14k said:

Sub $600 new I thought was made in China junk.

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Naa... Mp Sports..... Ruger ar556. and others.... when i say 600 i mean in the 600 range.
there are plenty of shitty guns for less

[capt14k 2,052]

Naa... Mp Sports..... Ruger ar556. and others.... when i say 600 i mean in the 600 range.

there are plenty of shitty guns for less [emoji4]

 

Edit Wow Ruger AR-556 I see for $499 new with free shipping a Copes. So I guess it is the sub $400 that are the Made in China Junk, $400-800 low end, $800-$1,200 mid range, $1,200-1,800 high end, and over $1,800 is the "you don't need that unless you are a professional competition shooter, but you will buy it anyways just to tell everyone how much you paid end".

 

 

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[GRIZ 3,369]

21 hours ago, capt14k said:

 

Friend of mine who was in Falljujah said 5.56 was worthless against guys hopped on some sort of local speed and wrapped in leather. They requested M14 and said that did the job.

Serbia is switching to 6.5 Grendel. Our own Army and Marines are looking at 6.5 as well, because 5.56 is not effective.

https://www.military.com/kitup/2018/04/11/marines-working-army-556mm-rifle-round-replacement.html

.308 is moving up because of action size. .308 or 6.5 Creedmoor don't chamber in AR-15 platform do they?


.30-06 surplus is still plentiful. Juse bought (4).30 Cans of 192 rounds on en blocs in bandoliers of Ethiopian non Corrosive for $99 a can. A year ago I bought (4) cans of HXP from CMP for $115 a can shipped. In between I bought (6) cans from individuals for $90 each. I don't know of any 7.62NATO that is cheaper. Usually the cheapest I can find 7.62NATO surplus is.60/round. Whereas 30-06 is way under.50/round when you factor in the value of the en blocs and bandoliers.



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Hmm...not buying that.  5.56 has some inability to do damage to someone hopped up on something while they'really wrapped in leather?

First I wonder who our side is?  Any fight I've ever been in I fought with what I brought.  The only "requests" were for artillery or air support.

I don't know of any unit that keeps a rack of M14s available for support nearby.  The Army hasn't become so namby pamby that a M14 is considered a support weapon.

Most of these cartridge effectiveness complaints are really the result of poor marksmanship.  Want some proof?

Can't remember the battle but an entire unit of USMC was under investigatigation for war crimes.  Why? ALL insurgents had been head shot.  How?  The Marines were using ACOGs. All fair combat shots.  They were all using...ready for this....5.56.

5.56 failure stories generally seem to keep appear in situations that can't be verified.  7.62x39 and AK?  Good gun for the enemy to use AFAIC.

Yes the Serbs are looking at the 6.5.  They have an army about half the size of NYPD.  They also have to look for who they'll be able to get ammo from with no major power using 6.5.  If they change their mind about joining NATO there go their ideas about adopting 6.5.

Dozens of calibers are already testing for use by the US military.  Few of them get anywhere.  I don't see a bright horizon for the 6.5.  Is it better yes, that much better, no.

30-06 ammo? You're talking CMP or garage sale prices.  Don't know about Ethiopian ammo.  The Ethiopian Army fought gallantly in Korea but I know nothing of their ammo industry.

Plenty of new and surplus 7.62 NATO available for around 50 cents a round or less if that's your criteria.  I'm still running on stuff I bought for 10 cents a round.

 

 

[CAL. .30 M1 2,101]

On 8/5/2018 at 9:33 PM, capt14k said:

 

I would like a FAL.
 

 

Doesn't every freedom loving person?

 

 

I would use the word superior in every sense of the word to describe it, but that word is thrown around so much lately...it loses its meaning.

[W2MC 1,699]

21 hours ago, remixer said:

Naa... Mp Sports..... Ruger ar556. and others.... when i say 600 i mean in the 600 range.
there are plenty of shitty guns for less

Actually that's a tribute to Gene Stoner's underlying design.  Even the low-end ARs are damn-good shooters.

 

[remixer 1,645]

Actually that's a tribute to Gene Stoner's underlying design.  Even the low-end ARs are damn-good shooters.
 

No doubt. They will out live us

[capt14k 2,052]

Hmm...not buying that.  5.56 has some inability to do damage to someone hopped up on something while they'really wrapped in leather?
First I wonder who our side is?  Any fight I've ever been in I fought with what I brought.  The only "requests" were for artillery or air support.
I don't know of any unit that keeps a rack of M14s available for support nearby.  The Army hasn't become so namby pamby that a M14 is considered a support weapon.
Most of these cartridge effectiveness complaints are really the result of poor marksmanship.  Want some proof?
Can't remember the battle but an entire unit of USMC was under investigatigation for war crimes.  Why? ALL insurgents had been head shot.  How?  The Marines were using ACOGs. All fair combat shots.  They were all using...ready for this....5.56.
5.56 failure stories generally seem to keep appear in situations that can't be verified.  7.62x39 and AK?  Good gun for the enemy to use AFAIC.
Yes the Serbs are looking at the 6.5.  They have an army about half the size of NYPD.  They also have to look for who they'll be able to get ammo from with no major power using 6.5.  If they change their mind about joining NATO there go their ideas about adopting 6.5.
Dozens of calibers are already testing for use by the US military.  Few of them get anywhere.  I don't see a bright horizon for the 6.5.  Is it better yes, that much better, no.
30-06 ammo? You're talking CMP or garage sale prices.  Don't know about Ethiopian ammo.  The Ethiopian Army fought gallantly in Korea but I know nothing of their ammo industry.
Plenty of new and surplus 7.62 NATO available for around 50 cents a round or less if that's your criteria.  I'm still running on stuff I bought for 10 cents a round.
 
 

USMC and they had to request M14 and 1911s. They weren't on a nearby rack.


.30-06 surplus comes up for sale a lot more often than 7.62NATO trust me on that. I am always looking. Plus 7.62NATO in Match is more money and AP is a lot more money than.30-06. Lastly I like.30-06 more. I have more Rifles that run.30-06. I think I only have one maybe 2 that are 7.62NATO.




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Actually that's a tribute to Gene Stoner's underlying design.  Even the low-end ARs are damn-good shooters.
 

This is true. I have a lowly Stag at least that is what AR Fan Boys consider it. Never had an issue with it.


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[GRIZ 3,369]

1 hour ago, capt14k said:

 

USMC and they had to request M14 and 1911s.

 

Request M14 and 1911?  What has this world come to?

[capt14k 2,052]

Request M14 and 1911?  What has this world come to?

That's the way the story was told to me from a guy I went to high school with who is an Ocean County Sheriff. He was already a Sheriff for years when he volunteered to go to Iraq.

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[GRIZ 3,369]

4 minutes ago, capt14k said:

That's the way the story was told to me from a guy I went to high school with who is an Ocean County Sheriff. He was already a Sheriff for years when he volunteered to go to Iraq.

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Never saw such crap in the Army.

[GRIZ 3,369]

 I still don't see a 7.62 NATO or 45 ACP as some magic wand vs a 5.56 or a 9mm parabellum.

[remixer 1,645]

Yes its FOD now.

 

[mossburger 406]

I always wonder why individual civilians with 10 or 15) round magazines compare their rifles to fully automatic versions with double and triple the capacity being used by an entire squad of shooters.

If I've got 1/3 the shots, only 1 rifle in use, and no fun switch, the scales clearly and easily begin to tip towards 7.62x39/51/54

[W2MC 1,699]

On 8/6/2018 at 7:23 AM, capt14k said:

 

Friend of mine who was in Falljujah said 5.56 was worthless against guys hopped on some sort of local speed and wrapped in leather. They requested M14 and said that did the job.

n Army and Marines are looking at 6.5 as well, because 5.56 is not effective.

https://www.military.com/kitup/2018/04/11/marines-working-army-556mm-rifle-round-replacement.html

 

 

Everything old is new again...  US forces in Mindanao had the same problem against juromemtados during the Philippines Occupation at the start of the last century. Hopped-up Moros wouldn't drop fast enough after taking multiple .38 (non-Special) hits.  They went back to the .45 Colt; the eventual outcome was the 1911 in .45 ACP. 

 

[capt14k 2,052]

Everything old is new again...  US forces in Mindanao had the same problem against juromemtados during the Philippines Occupation at the start of the last century. Hopped-up Moros wouldn't drop fast enough after taking multiple .38 (non-Special) hits.  They went back to the .45 Colt; the eventual outcome was the 1911 in .45 ACP. 
 

That is exactly what happened. Not sure why it is so hard for some people to believe that 9mm or 5.56mm just aren't as effective.


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[silverado427 10,717]

Just hold on to your Black rifles. When the democrats take back over the the White House prices will return to the norm.

[GRIZ 3,369]

14 minutes ago, capt14k said:

 

That is exactly what happened. Not sure why it is so hard for some people to believe that 9mm or 5.56mm just aren't as effective.


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Well there's maybe millions of bodies from WW2, Korea, Vietnam, a bunch of little wars and nearly 30 years in the middle east that give testimony to the 9mm and 5.56.  Let's throw in the 30 carbine too as that's another round people keep saying is ineffective.

Hard to say the 5.56 and 9mm are ineffective when I've seen them work and there are many more stories of them working than failing.

One thing I wonder with all these stories about "requesting M14s and1911s".  Do they shoot the bad guys with 5.56 and 9mm and get zero effect?  Then send for 7.62 NATO and 45s?  Did these bad guys just continue to play cards or whatever for the 30 minutes, 60 minutes or whatever and then fall over after they were shot with a 7.62 or a 45?  Weren't they bleeding?

It sounds like poor marksmanship to me.

I'm not saying 7.62 NATO or 45 ACP are not more effective rounds.  Just usually unnecessary.  If a bad guy is dead with a 5.56 would a 7.62 NATO make them deader?  Want effective? Shoot them with a 50 cal.

[W2MC 1,699]

For more info on Juramentados (note; sounds awfully similar to today):

http://philippineslifestyle.com/juramentados-islamic-suicide-squad/

[capt14k 2,052]

Well there's maybe millions of bodies from WW2, Korea, Vietnam, a bunch of little wars and nearly 30 years in the middle east that give testimony to the 9mm and 5.56.  Let's throw in the 30 carbine too as that's another round people keep saying is ineffective. Hard to say the 5.56 and 9mm are ineffective when I've seen them work and there are many more stories of them working than failing.

One thing I wonder with all these stories about "requesting M14s and1911s".  Do they shoot the bad guys with 5.56 and 9mm and get zero effect?  Then send for 7.62 NATO and 45s?  Did these bad guys just continue to play cards or whatever for the 30 minutes, 60 minutes or whatever and then fall over after they were shot with a 7.62 or a 45?  Weren't they bleeding?

It sounds like poor marksmanship to me.

I'm not saying 7.62 NATO or 45 ACP are not more effective rounds.  Just usually unnecessary.  If a bad guy is dead with a 5.56 would a 7.62 NATO make them deader?  Want effective? Shoot them with a 50 cal.

 

 

I said not as effective, not ineffective. One of the stories is insurgent (used a more colourful word) took 7 rounds, threw his homemade grenade, was able to run back inside grab another homemade grenade, before he finally went down. They were shooting from behind a wall on a roof down to the street. I would venture to guess accuracy drops when you are trying to not get shot or blown up yourself. They were shooting center mass not head shots. M14 and 1911 he said put them down immediately and they stayed down.

 

 

As I am sure you know 5.56 wasn't used by American forces til Vietnam. I've read many complaints about the M16 in Vietnam. M1 Carbine I've also read many complaints about in the Pacific Theater. Bullets were often ineffective due to dense jungle. That is why they started to develop the M1 Garand "Tanker". They were field modified M1 Garands. Supposedly 10 were made. 2 were sent to Springfield Armory to engineer and put in production. Never went into production because we dropped the bombs. The other 8 are unknown but rumor is some were left there and some were brought home. I believe Springfield Armory still has one of the original left (wasn't on display when I visited).

 

 

The M1 Carbine in Korea was issued to NCO, assistant gunners, and rear echelon troops. It was not a front line battle rifle and it failed miserably at the Battle of Chosin Reservoir in both putting down waves of Chinese and operating. Here is some direct info from someone who was there.

 

http://www.koreanwaronline.com/arms/m1carbin.htm

 

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[myhatinthering 462]

I just want to add that this has turned funny

[capt14k 2,052]

This is an interesting article titled "The Big Lie of Vietnam Kills U.S. Soldiers in Iraq"


https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2004/08/the_last_big_lie_of_vietnam_ki.html


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I just want to add that this has turned funny

Funny how


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[TokenEntry 293]

Why not put more holes into the same target with the same round so they bleed out faster?

Regards,

TokenEntry

[myhatinthering 462]

5 minutes ago, capt14k said:

This is an interesting article titled "The Big Lie of Vietnam Kills U.S. Soldiers in Iraq"


https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2004/08/the_last_big_lie_of_vietnam_ki.html


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Funny how


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Jesus where do I begin?  I mean that respectfully as I can't put it anymore eloquently.  I suggest you do A LOT more research, refrain from outliers when trying to bring the topic to a 'mean' and for the love of God, take down the article you just posted because if one my junior analysts used that to support their argument, I'D FIRE THEM.
 

The only thing you said that I agree with is your love for 06 as that is my favorite caliber as well

in 20yrs, all of this will not matter with the new body molding armor stuff being developed anyway.

 

[capt14k 2,052]

Jesus where do I begin?  I mean that respectfully as I can't put it anymore eloquently.  I suggest you do A LOT more research, refrain from outliers when trying to bring the topic to a 'mean' and for the love of God, take down the article you just posted because if one my junior analysts used that to support their argument, I'D FIRE THEM.   The only thing you said that I agree with is your love for 06 as that is my favorite caliber as well

in 20yrs, all of this will not matter with the new body molding armor stuff being developed anyway.

 

 

 

 Which article is that? The one with all the citations? I respectfully think you don't know how to read an article and look towards the citations. Also said I found it interesting not looking to prove a point with it. The point proving was with the previous link regarding the M1 Carbine. If I wanted to provide a detailed report on why 7.62NATO is a better round I could do so. However the fact that both the Army and USMC are looking for a more effective round is enough proof for me.

 

 

Here is another article for you. Now this has 2 links to statements made right in the article that will further the point if you click them. You won't have to go through the bibliography and manually find the article that further enhances the writers point.

 

 

 http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/10147/the-army-is-once-again-looking-to-replace-the-5-56mm-cartridge

 

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[GRIZ 3,369]

1 hour ago, capt14k said:

 

I said not as effective, not ineffective. One of the stories is insurgent (used a more colourful word) took 7 rounds, threw his homemade grenade, was able to run back inside grab another homemade grenade, before he finally went down. They were shooting from behind a wall on a roof down to the street. I would venture to guess accuracy drops when you are trying to not get shot or blown up yourself. They were shooting center mass not head shots. M14 and 1911 he said put them down immediately and they stayed down.

 

 

As I am sure you know 5.56 wasn't used by American forces til Vietnam. I've read many complaints about the M16 in Vietnam. M1 Carbine I've also read many complaints about in the Pacific Theater. Bullets were often ineffective due to dense jungle. That is why they started to develop the M1 Garand "Tanker". They were field modified M1 Garands. Supposedly 10 were made. 2 were sent to Springfield Armory to engineer and put in production. Never went into production because we dropped the bombs. The other 8 are unknown but rumor is some were left there and some were brought home. I believe Springfield Armory still has one of the original left (wasn't on display when I visited).

 

 

The M1 Carbine in Korea was issued to NCO, assistant gunners, and rear echelon troops. It was not a front line battle rifle and it failed miserably at the Battle of Chosin Reservoir in both putting down waves of Chinese and operating. Here is some direct info from someone who was there.

 

http://www.koreanwaronline.com/arms/m1carbin.htm

 

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7 hits? Or maybe only one.  Can't be sure.  Your accuracy goes down when your target is bobbing and weaving.

I'm well aware of the 5.56 in Vietnam.  I was using one there 50 years ago.  Not a special operator, Ranger or any of that but I fired a few shots.  Had a M14 at first but when I got a M16 I didnt look back.

As far as the failures of the M16 all I can say is we did what we were told to do and they'd work.  I find it amusing when people talk about running a wet bolt in an AR.  We were doing that 50 years ago.

My opinions are not based on shooting goats or guys high on something wrapped in black leather.  They are based on personal observations.

I did hear a story of Bubba being disappointed with the performance of his M16 and his daddy sent him a Winchester 1895 in 405 WCF.  He supposedly used that as an infantryman for the rest of his tour.  I've heard all kinds of bs stories.

I'm well aware of the "Tanker Garand". Read more history and the reason it didn't go into production or even local use was because the muzzle flash was tremendous. That's from Springirls Armory and Aberdeen Proving Ground.

I have a made up "Tanker" in 7.62 NATO.  Based on the muzzle flash that puts out it really must be horrendous with a M2 cartridge.

I have actually fought a couple of close range fights with a M2 carbine.  Worked well.

If you research the problem with the M1 Carbine in Korea you will find it wasn't the rifle but the ammo.  The Army insisted loading with a ball powder and std primer.  The ammo hadn't been exposed to sub zero cold until Korea. The bullet barely made it out of the tube causing the Carbine to jam.  This is also the cause of the myth "the rounds wouldn't penetrate heavy clothing".  A change of powder and primer fixed this.  You can duplicate this by loading a 44 Mag with W296 and a std primer.

 

 

 

[capt14k 2,052]

7 hits? Or maybe only one.  Can't be sure.  Your accuracy goes down when your target is bobbing and weaving. I'm well aware of the 5.56 in Vietnam.  I was using one there 50 years ago.  Not a special operator, Ranger or any of that but I fired a few shots.  Had a M14 at first but when I got a M16 I didnt look back. As far as the failures of the M16 all I can say is we did what we were told to do and they'd work.  I find it amusing when people talk about running a wet bolt in an AR.  We were doing that 50 years ago. My opinions are not based on shooting goats or guys high on something wrapped in black leather.  They are based on personal observations.

I did hear a story of Bubba being disappointed with the performance of his M16 and his daddy sent him a Winchester 1895 in 405 WCF.  He supposedly used that as an infantryman for the rest of his tour.  I've heard all kinds of bs stories.

I'm well aware of the "Tanker Garand". Read more history and the reason it didn't go into production or even local use was because the muzzle flash was tremendous. That's from Springirls Armory and Aberdeen Proving Ground.

I have a made up "Tanker" in 7.62 NATO.  Based on the muzzle flash that puts out it really must be horrendous with a M2 cartridge.

I have actually fought a couple of close range fights with a M2 carbine.  Worked well.

If you research the problem with the M1 Carbine in Korea you will find it wasn't the rifle but the ammo.  The Army insisted loading with a ball powder and std primer.  The ammo hadn't been exposed to sub zero cold until Korea. The bullet barely made it out of the tube causing the Carbine to jam.  This is also the cause of the myth "the rounds wouldn't penetrate heavy clothing".  A change of powder and primer fixed this.  You can duplicate this by loading a 44 Mag with W296 and a std primer.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 It could very well have been the powder. Just read an article that blamed most of the M16 failings on the powder too. I relayed a story about actual use from someone in Falljujah. There are other as stories about ineffectiveness too thus why they are looking to switch. I am sure there are plenty of stories about effective use as well. The after action reports from Westmoreland Command in Vietnam I think need to be taken with a grain of salt. At that time it was all about number killed and many reports were inflated. My info regarding the "tanker" Garand came from the Ranger at Springfield Armory. He said they were working on developing one from the ones made in the field and sent back. If it is wrong info you will have to take that up with him.  

 

 

Is the info incorrect about who was issued M1 Carbines in Korea?

 

 

A collector friend who was in Vietnam and took frequent trips into Laos and Cambodia said they were not very happy with the M16, but they were happy with the foreign made weapons they did carry.

 

 

Can we agree there is a problem with the 5.56? If not, then we would have to agree the United States Military is pissing away tax dollars and funding needs to be cut. Which is it?

 

[Zeke 5,504]

6 hours ago, remixer said:

Yes its FOD now.

 

Told ya

[GRIZ 3,369]

21 minutes ago, capt14k said:

 

 

 

Can we agree there is a problem with the 5.56? If not, then we would have to agree the United States Military is pissing away tax dollars and funding needs to be cut. Which is it?

 

Whoa!!! Ultimatums!!!  Agree with me or you're wrong!

Watching the end of "We Were Soldiers". LTC Moore and the troops of the 1/7th seem to make the 5.56 work well there with no complaints.  Worked well in Khe Sahn and a bunch of other battles.  It's been too successful to dismiss as troublesome.  Different 5.56 weapons are constantly evaluated.

The 5.56 is in service over 50 years.  If it's performance was half as bad as the naysayers it would have gone long ago. Yes being it's 50 years old (never had a service rifle cartridge that long) replacement's are being tested.

What funding should be cut? All 5.56? Leave troops with nothing until some tactical ninja round is adopted?