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sroc112

Trying to fully understand the law that entitles others to have your firearms taken away

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What I am referring to is the ability for a family member or friend to have a voice in saying that someone should not be allowed to legally own firearms. From what I gather on the doctor aspect of this is if even a general physician feels you are a risk to yourself or others (for whatever reason they deem appropriate), they have the right to call that in and poof, have your guns taken away. But what I am trying to better understand is the ability of an anti-gun family member who just doesnt like the fact that you have guns in your house, being able to ruin your hobby or your ability to protect yourself. Also, let's say you and the spouse are on the verge of separation and just out spite knowing how much you enjoy shooting and collecting as a hobby, decides to say to a lawyer that they are nervous about you owning guns, is that also an instant confiscation? What I'm trying to get at is there any actual investigating or understanding put into these decisions or all it takes is just about anyone saying you are a threat and no matter what, there goes your freedom of being able to protect your family and home. Is it that easy?

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These are fantastic questions! I think the law is purposefully vague, but yes, I do suspect it will be just "that easy" for all manner of people to cause gun owners some serious issues. Why? One, because I think there's an awful lot of very left-leaning judges in this state who will just be rubber-stamping these things. Two, even if they're not left-wing, they don't want to experience the career fallout if they reject a case and the person then does something awful.

And I think this law will have ALL kinds of unintended consequences --- gun owners, like anyway else, can experience depression or any other manageable mental disorder. But, will they discuss it with their doctor knowing the potential  loss of freedom if their doctor "snitches" on them? I sort of doubt it. So, I do think this will keep people from seeking treatment... how is that a good thing? Personally? My doctor will NEVER know that I'm a gun owner.

And yes, I also think it makes gun owners very vulnerable to a spiteful soon-to-be-ex partner - particularly since the law (foolishly) has no penalty for false accusations. So... what are the answers there, other than choose your partner wisely in the first place? And perhaps, if you see that things are getting ugly and spiteful in a relationship, put the guns in storage?

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It is that easy.  Guns will be taken, investigation will happen later at the leisure of a government that is on record stating that firearms are a danger in the hands of law-abiding citizens and a track record of continuously inventing new ways to violate the 2nd amendment rights of citizens while making exception after exception for the "elite class" of politicians and law enforcement.  Just this year,  children have been suspended from schools for participating in shooting sports at legal, sanctioned, supervised shooting ranges on the weekend with their parents.  Cops have come to the homes of a student to confiscate the parents guns because someone overheard that student and a friend criticizing the ineffectiveness of the school lock down drills.  The eavesdropping student told his mom, who told a teacher, who called the cops, who went on complete hearsay to seize weapons.  We are at war.  Our 2nd amendment rights are under direct attack.

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5 minutes ago, Regular Guy said:

We are at war.  Our 2nd amendment rights are under direct attack.

I'd love to say you were just being paranoid, but unfortunately, the cases we've seen in recent months completely support your dire assessment.  

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24 minutes ago, sroc112 said:

So that's it? No hope or potential for anyone or anyway to see that this is broken and intervene?

These laws are popping up in several states. I expect abuses in all of those states; it's inevitable, human nature being what it is. So, yes, eventually: lawsuits. But in the immediate future? Like I said, at the very least, choose your partners wisely... take strategic action to safeguard your property if you have a relationship getting "testy"...  and don't talk firearms with your healthcare professionals (HCPs). Sadly, seeing the deep anti-gun bias so many HCPs hold, I believe you must now view them as potential snitches - who can cause you all kinds of trouble and expense for something as simple as welling up or getting angry during a dr's appointment due to a difficult period of life (grief, job loss, or whatever). Sorry, but that's how I see it.  I'm sure others will chime in with their opinions, too... and may have less depressing or wiser suggestions than what I just laid out.

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Just now, Zeke said:

Remember to yourself “ due process, and the right to face your accuser”

 

Yeah, that's what the lawsuits will be filed on. But, in the early days? The test cases will be ugly... due process will fly out the window!

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9 minutes ago, Mrs. Peel said:

Yeah, that's what the lawsuits will be filed on. But, in the early days? The test cases will be ugly... due process will fly out the window!

Unfortunately... this is how it works.

And it’s not a dem or rep thing.. it’s a swamp thing 

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I have said this on other threads... democrats and republicans have voted for this.  Reps Demaio and Petersen, both of whom claim to be pro second amendment, conveniently abstained from voting on this bill.   At least senator Doherty had the guts to be one of five senators to vote no.

Objectively speaking (as hard as that is.....) there are many laws that get taken out of context and manipulated, even in pro guns states.  However, this new jersey law makes it easier than most.  I hate to say this, but gun owners have to be extra careful in many ways to stay in the clear on this one.  On a side note, this law applies equally for law enforcement, and one of a law enforcement officer's greatest fears is losing his or her weapon.  If we are looking for change, it may start here.

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1 hour ago, Mrs. Peel said:

...take strategic action to safeguard your property if you have a relationship getting "testy"...  and don't talk firearms with your healthcare professionals (HCPs). 

I've talked to my kids about not talking at school about going to the range with me or even talking at school about shooting on video games because I don't want DFYS, the PD, or any other alphabet soup agencies at the house trying to take my property. 

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When you say a strategic action to safeguard your property, or refer to storing your firearms I  a way to help against things like this, what do we mean exactly? If the guns are not physically at your home at the time anyone came knocking, there is nothing they can do? They can only take what they can find in the home, and not issue anything else that would cause it to then be illegal to own firearms moving foward, or something to prevent you from purchasing more?

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Remind me, with the new laws is it just HCPs that could potentially take your rights away or can it even be someone as benign as a neighbor or co-worker that can cause your 2A rights to be stripped?  

Lately I have been keeping my mouth shut/even removing firearms from my social media accounts, all over this headache BS murphy signed into place.  

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Unfortunately I think this may be just the tip of the iceberg. Many of our rights are being eviscerated. The bill of rights mean very little to the left.

The left would like to completely eliminate that dusty old constitution and replace it with their socialist Soros agendas.

Free speech, one of the hallmarks of our constitution, is being eroded by "hate speech" laws. If the government doesn't like what you are saying then it can become hate speech.

Freedom of the press is also being eroded by "fake news".

The RKBA is being eroded to "keep us all safe".

Our rights of privacy and due process are going out the window with these new laws.

I have "stayed in the closet" about my second amendment thoughts with most people. You can't be open to doctors or anyone anymore.

These are sad times ahead. I am optimistic that things can get better. It just takes so long for the pendulum to swing back to normalcy. NJ is done until SCOTUS saves us.

These sound like the rants of a paranoid crazy. I guess I am just deplorable.

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9 hours ago, peacewalker said:

Remind me, with the new laws is it just HCPs that could potentially take your rights away or can it even be someone as benign as a neighbor or co-worker that can cause your 2A rights to be stripped?  

Lately I have been keeping my mouth shut/even removing firearms from my social media accounts, all over this headache BS murphy signed into place.  

It appears that there is little or no consequence for those who make false or out of context accusations.   Eastern Arms, a nice store in the Poconos (and Quakertown now) has had their facebook account either warned or temporarily frozen by mysterious accusers multiple times.  I fear that this behavior will worsen.

I Pennsylvania, one can have their firearms transferred to a friend, so when a protection from abuse order is inappropriately filed, the falsely accused is not a firearms owner at that time.  Even in PA, it is VERY difficult to get firearms back after a false PFA is filed.  It happens in other states, but this new law makes it easier here.

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I've said this several times to the very, very few people that know I have guns:

if there's ever an event in my life that would cause me to benefit seeing a shrink temporally or even  taking some happy pills, I won't. I'll deal with it on my own. I will not have that stigma of mental illness attached to me when my civil rights are at stake. And I know I'm not alone.

When all mental illness gets treated the same, none gets treated.

 

 

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11 hours ago, peacewalker said:

Remind me, with the new laws is it just HCPs that could potentially take your rights away or can it even be someone as benign as a neighbor or co-worker that can cause your 2A rights to be stripped? 

In theory, it seems like its supposed to be health care providers, family members, or people close enough to you to have an intimate knowledge of your mental health status and behavior patterns.  Those people would be assumed to have "credibility"  should they decide to voice a concern to law enforcement in the event they see a pattern of behavior changes or hear you outright express threats, thoughts or desires to harm them, yourself or others members of the Peoples Republic of NJ.

In practice so far, the hear-say can easily be whispered into the ear of half a dozen people before making it to the police and they will still come to your house at 1:00am, several days after the original words were spoken, and demand you immediately forfeit your firearms with no probable cause and due process. 

Based on this practice, it is clear that anyone could report you for any completely unfounded reason, and should the cops be willing to do so, would have the backing of the law and the left wing judges and prosecutors who uphold them, and come seize your property.  Anyone could see a NRA bumper sticker on a vehicle, call the cops and say "that car cut me off and waived a gun at me, here is the plate number" and totally cause that person an unthinkable amount of long lasting problems.  The scenario sounds extreme, but look at what's already been happening and you'll see its not that far-fetched to think this scenario could happen. 

BOTTOM LINE:  As a firearms owner we are now second class citizens with less rights and less protection granted to us.  As a firearms owner, the 2nd amendment right to bear arms is being more severely infringed and the 4th amendment right no longer protects you from search and seizure the same way it protects everyone else.  Your 1st amendment right to free speech is also being stifled as you now run the risk of swift and severe retribution by simply sharing photos of legal firearms activities via social media.  As a firearms owner, someone else automatically has more credibility than you so what they say must be true and you automatically lose and get punished.  

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1 hour ago, 45Doll said:

Just wait until the CDC or Rutgers issues a determination that just wanting to own firearms is a form of mental illness. Then the floodgates open.

Rest assured... it's coming.

Yep.  Beware of Rutgers.  I have to do ongoing behavioral health trainings there for licensure and recertifications.  The last two trainings that I went to, the presenters went out of their way from their presented topic to mention their anti-gun position. 

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1 hour ago, WP22 said:

I've said this several times to the very, very few people that know I have guns:

if there's ever an event in my life that would cause me to benefit seeing a shrink temporally or even  taking some happy pills, I won't. I'll deal with it on my own. I will not have that stigma of mental illness attached to me when my civil rights are at stake. And I know I'm not alone.

When all mental illness gets treated the same, none gets treated.

 

 

I mentioned this on another thread, but this new duty to warn law affects law enforcement as well, and the consequences for them are just as serious.  

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I keep the bare minimum in my house AR, 10/22, Pistol, Revolver, Shotgun. Everything else is stored at other locations. If anything is ever taken it is all easily replaceable for a total cost of under $2k. I also have Eastern Firearms Insurance, which covers police causing damage to your firearms if unlawfully taken. In other words if you get them back and they are damaged the insurance will cover their replacement or repair costs.


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I keep the bare minimum in my house AR, 10/22, Pistol, Revolver, Shotgun. Everything else is stored at other locations. If anything is ever taken it is all easily replaceable for a total cost of under $2k. I also have Eastern Firearms Insurance, which covers police causing damage to your firearms if unlawfully taken. In other words if you get them back and they are damaged the insurance will cover their replacement or repair costs.


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Are you in NJ? The only thing that concerns me is the confiscation of ARs. I’ll have mine out of my residence in a heartbeat.


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FYI, when someone signs a DV Complaint against you, they can list anywhere else that you have access to firearms. The complaint is also a search warrant for those locations. It not only is for your guns, the police can take the resident's own firearms where yours are stored. Even a friend's firearms are not safe if you have had access prior.

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5 hours ago, PK90 said:

FYI, when someone signs a DV Complaint against you, they can list anywhere else that you have access to firearms. The complaint is also a search warrant for those locations. It not only is for your guns, the police can take the resident's own firearms where yours are stored. Even a friend's firearms are not safe if you have had access prior.

Sent from an undisclosed location via Tapatalk
 

@PK90 - OK, I'm confused on a few things... could you clarify, if you know? Or others can weigh in, too. Note: I'm merely curious about how all this might be implemented... I'm not asking because I'm planning on starting a secret cache and "running from the popo"!! (I'm delighted to report my life isn't nearly that exciting. LOL). 

1) Will, in fact, these new gun-related restraining orders work exactly like DV temporary restraining orders (TROs)? 

2) I guess it matters WHO the order is against, right? Like take that case in NJ where apparently the son complained about school security at his HS...the conversation was overheard, and so the police showed up at his parents' house. I'm presuming then that the reason the father was allowed to remove the guns from the house is because HE was not the subject of the warrant... and if removing them put them beyond the access of the son (who presumably WAS the subject of the warrant) - then that made it an acceptable arrangement, is that correct? Because, I couldn't quite figure out how all that went down... never made sense to me.

3) Do warrants signed by a local NJ judge cross state lines? Or, are they only good within that jurisdiction? In the case where police learn of out-of-state caches, for instance, do the police then have to coordinate with those other jurisdictions to get warrants there as well? And how long does that usually take? [after years of watching all the Law & Order shows... you'd think I'd know this stuff!] 

4) And the obvious question, if the complainant doesn't know where all the guns are... I guess the police can't search locations they're unaware of... so, from a purely logical perspective - if a gun owner knows he/she has a spiteful in-law or neighbor, for instance, and honestly believes that person is capable of filing a false charge, then keeping that spiteful person in the dark on where the guns are stashed would be only sensible, correct? What is the penalty (if any) for refusing to give the location to the police? I guess the "don't talk, call your lawyer" kicks in at that point? And you don't have to say a damn thing?

On a side note, I'm a nice person.. and my first instinct is always to comply with the law. So, if this is the way MY mind is working, this just shows me that these laws will only serve to make legal gun owners more self-protective and devious about how they store their firearms. That's a real shame. 

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30 minutes ago, Mrs. Peel said:

@PK90 - OK, I'm confused on a few things... could you clarify, if you know? Or others can weigh in, too. Note: I'm merely curious about how all this might be implemented... I'm not asking because I'm planning on starting a secret cache and "running from the popo"!! (I'm delighted to report my life isn't nearly that exciting. LOL). 

1) Will, in fact, these new gun-related restraining orders work exactly like DV temporary restraining orders (TROs)?  :dontknow:

2) I guess it matters WHO the order is against, right? :yes: Like take that case in NJ where apparently the son complained about school security at his HS...the conversation was overheard, and so the police showed up at his parents' house. I'm presuming then that the reason the father was allowed to remove the guns from the house is because HE was not the subject of the warrant... and if removing them put them beyond the access of the son (who presumably WAS the subject of the warrant) - then that made it an acceptable arrangement, is that correct? :dontknow: Because, I couldn't quite figure out how all that went down... never made sense to me. :dontknow:

3) Do warrants signed by a local NJ judge cross state lines? :no2: Or, are they only good within that jurisdiction? :no2: In the case where police learn of out-of-state caches, for instance, do the police then have to coordinate with those other jurisdictions to get warrants there as well? :no2: And how long does that usually take? :dontknow: [after years of watching all the Law & Order shows... you'd think I'd know this stuff!] 

4) And the obvious question, if the complainant doesn't know where all the guns are... I guess the police can't search locations they're unaware of... so, from a purely logical perspective - if a gun owner knows he/she has a spiteful in-law or neighbor, for instance, and honestly believes that person is capable of filing a false charge, then keeping that spiteful person in the dark on where the guns are stashed would be only sensible, correct? :yes: What is the penalty (if any) for refusing to give the location to the police? :hang: I guess the "don't talk, call your lawyer" kicks in at that point? :yes: And you don't have to say a damn thing? :yes:

On a side note, I'm a nice person.. :friends: and my first instinct is always to comply with the law. So, if this is the way MY mind is working, this just shows me that these laws will only serve to make legal gun owners more self-protective and devious about how they store their firearms. That's a real shame. 

 

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On 8/11/2018 at 0:39 PM, father-of-three said:

Yep.  Beware of Rutgers.  I have to do ongoing behavioral health trainings there for licensure and recertifications.  The last two trainings that I went to, the presenters went out of their way from their presented topic to mention their anti-gun position. 

did you say anything?

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