Zeke 5,504 Posted September 1, 2018 19 minutes ago, Ziggy said: Thank you to everyone who replied. It seems however that a few of you are becoming angry for not knowing every last detail about the original seizure- which was not the point of my seeking opinions. I was asking only abut the return of the magazines so that I could alter them myself. Comments from members (i.e. Sniper 22) questioning my motives are inappropriate and distracting. FYI - While I didn't agree with the original seizure over a family dispute I am not fighting the actions (inappropriate as they may have been) taken by law enforcement. There's no grand conspiracy or elaborate back story. We're a family of professionals - no criminals or drug dealing or violent histories - just a family dispute over estate issues. I'm sure more than one of you have had family problems! . I'm getting the weapons returned and don't need to take up a pissing match with the local idiot cops and be in court forever. LIFE IS TOO SHORT!! Again- thank you for the opinions and possible explanations behind the ambiguity of the subject. To those of you who question my motives- get over yourselves! Not everything is a conspiracy against you!!!! Welcome to the forum.. hit the introduction section and introduce yourself! 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mrs. Peel 7,148 Posted September 1, 2018 3 hours ago, Ziggy said: To those of you who question my motives- get over yourselves! Not everything is a conspiracy against you!!!! Please don't take it personally! These forums are public and therefore, it's reasonable to expect they are regularly "visited" by members of gun control groups who wish we didn't exist (LOL).So, when a first-time poster launches right into asking legal questions, it sometimes raises an eyebrow or two. It's a conundrum really... because it could be someone hoping to get bad advice and then leverage that against the 2A community... but it's also easy to understand why a legal issue would legitimately prompt someone to join our forums! So, again, it's nothing personal. (Just giving you some insight to explain the raging paranoia! LOL). As someone else suggested, please introduce yourself in the intro section and you might want to flesh out your profile so we know what range you frequent, etc. (That alone has been known to prompt invitations!). I'm confident you'll find this community overall to be warm, welcoming... and happy to provide advice and assistance. Welcome.. nice to have another lady shooter aboard! Oh, keep an eye on our Events section too - we occasionally have meet-ups where you can meet forum members face-to-face. We have an event at RTSP (Randolph, NJ) coming up Oct 21. Is that anywhere near you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
capt14k 2,051 Posted September 1, 2018 It works like this: 1. Only FFLs can ship handguns USPS. 2. You can ship any of your guns to YOURSELF in the US. You can't ship handguns USPS. 3. You can ship a gun to a FFL, manufacturer, or licensed gunsmith in any state. The problem with #2 is although the law allows you to ship handguns to yourself UPS and FEDEX won't let you as far as i know. Some say just declare it as machine parts. Problem with that is there is a law requiring you to declare a firearm to a common carrier. You can ship handguns UPS and FedEx if they ship overnight. That is their rule not ATF rule.Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlueLineFish 615 Posted September 1, 2018 My understanding is that one cant take possession of mags over 10 rounds since the law was signed. If they are in your possession when the law was signed then you are subject to the grace period. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
4theboys 8 Posted September 2, 2018 6 hours ago, Ziggy said: FYI - While I didn't agree with the original seizure over a family dispute I am not fighting the actions (inappropriate as they may have been) taken by law enforcement. There's no grand conspiracy or elaborate back story. We're a family of professionals - no criminals or drug dealing or violent histories - just a family dispute over estate issues. I'm sure more than one of you have had family problems! . So to clarify your situation you had a family dispute in which LEO’s had to respond to the incident. You owned or have had firearms in which the LEO’s during their investigation became aware of those firearms. It appears you may have been served with a TRO in which collection of said firearms needed to be turned over to the LEO’s serving you. Once your matter which appears to be resolved via the courts now allows you to take possession of the surrendered firearms. Also welcome to the forums. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GRIZ 3,365 Posted September 2, 2018 2 hours ago, capt14k said: You can ship handguns UPS and FedEx if they ship overnight. That is their rule not ATF rule. Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk Never said that was a ATF rule. I recently shipped 's gun to a manufacturer for service. UPS offered me 2 day delivery. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
capt14k 2,051 Posted September 2, 2018 Never said that was a ATF rule. I recently shipped 's gun to a manufacturer for service. UPS offered me 2 day delivery.Never said you did. Read through official UPS rules and it says next day shipping. If something happened regardless of what store told you good chance you would be SOL with insurance claim. Also stores are franchise run so what they tell you is meaningless. If you went to hub then maybe they would honor insurance claim. This topic has been discussed over an over on gunboards. Plenty of links and posts of official wording there and on their sites.Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GRIZ 3,365 Posted September 2, 2018 4 minutes ago, capt14k said: Never said you did. Read through official UPS rules and it says next day shipping. If something happened regardless of what store told you good chance you would be SOL with insurance claim. Also stores are franchise run so what they tell you is meaningless. If you went to hub then maybe they would honor insurance claim. This topic has been discussed over an over on gunboards. Plenty of links and posts of official wording there and on their sites. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Not a store but a hub. Next day was a few dollars less than overnight. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GRIZ 3,365 Posted September 2, 2018 No way would an insurance claim shipped from a hub be denied. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GRIZ 3,365 Posted September 2, 2018 Hub contracted when they took my declared value. End of story if they lost it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
capt14k 2,051 Posted September 2, 2018 Not a store but a hub. Next day was a few dollars less than overnight. There are usually 2 one day shipping options either is fine according to their rules. One is AM the other is next day. Two day would not be within their rules. Though most people ship 2 day amyways. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GRIZ 3,365 Posted September 2, 2018 54 minutes ago, capt14k said: There are usually 2 one day shipping options either is fine according to their rules. One is AM the other is next day. Two day would not be within their rules. Though most people ship 2 day amyways. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Well that's what I was offered Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Greenday 323 Posted September 4, 2018 I'd imagine that the OP has zero shot getting those magazines back. It just doesn't seem likely. They are illegal to own and use so I can't see the police handing them over to a civilian. The ONLY way I can see them being returned is having been altered to only hold 10 rounds prior to being returned. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Golf battery 1,223 Posted September 4, 2018 Question. Handing them over to a civilian. I take it that police are civilians. The only ones that arent are active military? So. Its a civilian holding civilians belongings ? 2 hours ago, Greenday said: I'd imagine that the OP has zero shot getting those magazines back. It just doesn't seem likely. They are illegal to own and use so I can't see the police handing them over to a civilian. The ONLY way I can see them being returned is having been altered to only hold 10 rounds prior to being returned. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GRIZ 3,365 Posted September 4, 2018 2 minutes ago, Golf battery said: Question. Handing them over to a civilian. I take it that police are civilians. The only ones that arent are active military? So. Its a civilian holding civilians belongings ? @Golf battery I have to agree with Greenday on his usage of the word civilian. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/civilian The dictionary also includes firefighters as not being "civilians". I also agree that the OP will not get these magazines back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kman 56 Posted September 4, 2018 This is an interesting circumstance you have because it presents a great opportunity to litigate the magazine ban in court. The police have the magazines. They will not return them, your property, to you, on the basis of the law. You therefore have standing to sue the police to get the magazines back, on the basis that the law is unconstitutional. Many constitutional cases are thrown out due to lack of "standing" because you did not actually (for instance) get arrested for violating the law, and thus the court says there is no controversy before it to decide. in this instance you have clear standing to sue, without having to break any law and get arrested, and without having to get over the "standing" hurdle that blocks so many civil rights cases. The state has your magazines, required functional parts of your constitutionally protected firearms that are required for your firearms to work, and the state is refusing to return them. No dispute they are yours, no dispute that the basis for them taking them from you originally has been eliminated. That is infringement of a constitutional right, for sure. Seems to me that one of the gun rights organizations such as the NRA, ANJRPC, or, more likely, the SAF (Second Amendment Foundation) might be interested in hiring attorneys to take your case. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Golf battery 1,223 Posted September 4, 2018 I hate to agree. But in my eyes. Anything other than active military is civilian. I understand though. Anyone that took the oath to perform their job is considered not civilian. I think thats a bit construed. Is what it is. I dont know if the founding fathers would agree though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
capt14k 2,051 Posted September 4, 2018 I hate to agree. But in my eyes. Anything other than active military is civilian. I understand though. Anyone that took the oath to perform their job is considered not civilian. I think thats a bit construed. Is what it is. I dont know if the founding fathers would agree though. LEOS should never refer to American citizens are as civilians. Only active military earn the right to refer to citizens as civilians. Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GRIZ 3,365 Posted September 4, 2018 2 minutes ago, capt14k said: LEOS should never refer to American citizens are as civilians. Only active military earn the right to refer to citizens as civilians. Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk The dictionary, which includes common word useage, says otherwise. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
capt14k 2,051 Posted September 4, 2018 The dictionary, which includes common word useage, says otherwise.Depends on which version you read. Civilian Original meaning was one specialized in knowing the law aka a Judge. I would bet Police who refer to themselves as something other than a citizen or civilian would stop real fast if war were to break out. International Independent Friendship Federation of High Police Officers have requested Civilian Protections under the Geneva Conventions. Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GRIZ 3,365 Posted September 4, 2018 4 hours ago, capt14k said: Depends on which version you read. Civilian Original meaning was one specialized in knowing the law aka a Judge. I would bet Police who refer to themselves as something other than a citizen or civilian would stop real fast if war were to break out. International Independent Friendship Federation of High Police Officers have requested Civilian Protections under the Geneva Conventions. Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk How the police are treated under the Rules of War depends on their actions. Link below if you care to research it. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/Military_Law/pdf/law_warfare-1956.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjBnIORzqHdAhVxn-AKHfSjDz4QFjAAegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw1TDQdZapKaAdXRSRfI4gut Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
M4BGRINGO 139 Posted September 4, 2018 Walk into the police station with a box large enough for all your mags with a UPS label attached with an address for another state where they are legal and you have a friend/relative there that can legally take possession of them. Seal it up in front of them, ask them if they would like to escort you to the nearest UPS pickup site, then tell them thanks........... 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
capt14k 2,051 Posted September 4, 2018 How the police are treated under the Rules of War depends on their actions. Link below if you care to research it. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/Military_Law/pdf/law_warfare-1956.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjBnIORzqHdAhVxn-AKHfSjDz4QFjAAegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw1TDQdZapKaAdXRSRfI4gut You should realize by now I already did the research. If they want to take up arms they can be treated as combatants however the International organization seems to want to be treated as civilians. They can't have it both ways. Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GRIZ 3,365 Posted September 4, 2018 4 minutes ago, capt14k said: You should realize by now I already did the research. If they want to take up arms they can be treated as combatants however the International organization seems to want to be treated as civilians. They can't have it both ways. Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk You didn't say anything about police taking up arms against the enemy in your original post. My response was specific to what you stated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
capt14k 2,051 Posted September 4, 2018 You didn't say anything about police taking up arms against the enemy in your original post. My response was specific to what you stated. No I said they would start to refer to themselves as civilians. Which means they wouldn't take up arms. Now if they did they wouldn't be Civilians. At least that is the position of the international Police org under rules of Geneva convention. So why call citizens civilians currently? We are all Citizens and equal. Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GRIZ 3,365 Posted September 4, 2018 45 minutes ago, capt14k said: No I said they would start to refer to themselves as civilians. Which means they wouldn't take up arms. Now if they did they wouldn't be Civilians. At least that is the position of the international Police org under rules of Geneva convention. So why call citizens civilians currently? We are all Citizens and equal. Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk If police or a variety of other classes of people take up arms against the enemy they will be treated as combatants. If not they aren't combatants. This has been covered by the Rules of War for some time. The position of any police organization has nothing to do with the Rules of War. All of this has nothing to do with the OP's questions. If you want to discuss the Rules of War start another thread. I'm prepared to discuss that there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickySantoro 211 Posted September 4, 2018 On 8/31/2018 at 2:41 PM, Ziggy said: Hello. I'm new to the forum. I'm scheduled to have guns and magazines returned to me. My attorney said police are keeping the magazines because of the new law. A friend suggested they have no legal right to keep the magazines because the law is not yet in effect and it is up to me to alter them. Is this correct? It's also been suggested they'll try to intimidate me because I'm a smaller woman going alone. I'm pissed and want everything returned to me that inappropriately took three months ago. Appreciate any help and specifics about the laws. Thanks. You're not going to get these arrogant a**wipes to obey the law. They think they ARE the law. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
raz-0 1,256 Posted September 4, 2018 On 8/31/2018 at 4:31 PM, DirtyDigz said: Attorney Evan Nappen’s opinion is that the “grace period” is for modification/transferring/surrenderig only, and that otherwise the magazines are illegal outside your home right now. http://www.evannappen.com/book-update---large-capacity-magazines.html Good, the police who stole her shit from her home can return it. They are exempt. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
capt14k 2,051 Posted September 4, 2018 If police or a variety of other classes of people take up arms against the enemy they will be treated as combatants. If not they aren't combatants. This has been covered by the Rules of War for some time. The position of any police organization has nothing to do with the Rules of War. All of this has nothing to do with the OP's questions. If you want to discuss the Rules of War start another thread. I'm prepared to discuss that there.That is correct. They are civilians until they take up arms. Then they are combatants. Just like the rest of us are civilians unless we organize into militias or take up arms in anyway against the enemy, at which point we become combatants. We are all civilians, all citizens, and potentially all combatants. Being a LEO is no different than a doctor, lawyer, plumber, or electrician. Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GRIZ 3,365 Posted September 4, 2018 1 minute ago, capt14k said: That is correct. They are civilians until they take up arms. Then they are combatants. Just like the rest of us are civilians unless we organize into militias or take up arms in anyway against the enemy, at which point we become combatants. We are all civilians, all citizens, and potentially all combatants. Being a LEO is no different than a doctor, lawyer, plumber, or electrician. Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk Start a thread on how the police are no different than doctors, lawyers, plumbers, or electricians and we will discuss that there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites