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Ray Ray

Aimpoint/Trijicon, are they overpriced?

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With the surge of AR type rifles, starting in 2004 when the AWB was laid to rest, the optics market has evolved.  We went from strictly depending on the big names (Aimpoint/EOtech/Trijicon) to now in 2018 where those very optics are now, dare I say it, overpriced and obsolete? 

Take, for example, the Primary Arms Cyclops.  It has everything you could ask for in an optic designed for "work".  Dependable, durable, half the price of the big names and it doesn't even need batteries!  

So, do you need to spend boku bucks for a name?  Not anymore.  

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Dependable, durable, half the price of the big names and it doesn't even need batteries!

 

So, do you need to spend boku bucks for a name?  Not anymore.

 

In regards to not needing batteries... it is similar to saying you have an illuminated scope, and running it without the illuminated reticule. Yes, you can run it without batteries, but why? Batteries, even if you consider this red dot (CR2032), are usually the cheapest part of the equation. I have been keeping track of mine among all of my optics, lasers, and lights, and try to change them regularly.

 

In regards to spending money on a name, that one you are talking about is $240 on Amazon. That is in the realm of a used Aimpoint CompM3... for maybe $30 more. While you might have an argument about spending $500+ on a name, $30 is not a big deal on something that A LOT of people trust over something that really has only been in people’s hands for a little over a month.

 

https://clydearmory.com/agency-trade-in-aimpoint-compm3-2moa-with-gg-g-mount.html

 

And that is from a regular source. AR15.com’s EE can net you one maybe a little less, if the person is going with something different. All depends on how long someone is willing to wait for a good deal.

 

I will agree, some optic choices are crazy. My Leupold Mk4 scope was $899, on a Black Friday sale. A lot, but I’ve seen similar optics go A LOT higher. I went Leupold due to the early 1990s one that was on my Remington when I bought it... and how clear it was (Mk4 is just as clear). ACOGs definitely are priced up there, but also need to consider the material used to construct it.

 

For price, a lot goes into glass, QC, and even specific design elements for the product. Comes down to is if the buyer is willing to pay for it. Some are ACOG guys, others are Aimpoint Micros. Some are PROs. Some are SIG/Holosun. And some are Primary Arms. The only real problem is when you start going into the no-name airsoft stuff or Chinese copies being passed off as Aimpoint or something else. That being said, Chinese isn’t automatically bad (the Primary Arms one is made in China)... just depends on the QC being implemented.

 

I personally liked it when Holosun, and then SIG, started putting out decent, less costly options. I feel the same with this Primary Arms one (hesitation aside, will mention my opinion at the end). The better the lower end gets, either Aimpoint/Trijicon/Leupold needs to lower their price to compete, or make it better. Long run, better for the consumer. No way would I ever be upset for that.

 

I’ve had my Aimpoints for a few years... one I bought new, one was lightly used, and one unused, but in an open box. I’m not getting rid of any of them for a Primary Arms red dot that just came out (I rather see some track record before I invest over $200 in something). If that red dot works out, still no real reason for me to swap my Aimpoints.

 

Overpriced, well that depends on the buyer. If I grab a PRO for $375, I do not feel that is overpriced. It is a quality optic that will last. Obsolete? How so? Because as a sighting system, an Aimpoint isn’t any less obsolete than any other red dot. Nothing that Primary Arms red dot is doing hasn’t been done before, or is a far enough jump that you’ll find Aimpoints being sold off for $100 because of how useless they are. I’m all for hearing about new stuff, even if from companies that I regularly don’t buy, but let’s not get too ahead of ourselves and act like SOCOM is buying these instead of X.

 

Maybe this red dot turns into something along the lines of sliced bread, and it works out about when I decide to toss a red dot on my SUB-2000 (whenever MCARBO releases their mount), it could be an option. Or SIG (like the warranty, but I am also looking into one of their rangefinders... and my father likes the Romeo that I bought him for Christmas a year or two back). Or even a used Aimpoint Micro. Well, maybe scratch that last one... and likely the Primary Arms.

 

And neither has to do with a price or name reason. I hate Micro sized red dots. For me, looking through such a small tube is a hinderance. That is why my Aimpoints are all off the larger tube line. I’ve shot an AR with a T2, and wasn’t a fan. From the numbers I’m seeing, the Primary Arms FOV is even smaller than a Micro. If I’m going that small, I’ll do something along the lines of an RMR... not strictly for quality, but the actual design difference (non-tube over tube).

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The thing about sights is that if you buy right, you cant lose. So yeah, an acog might be 700-800$ but imo they are clearer than any other optic ive had and i know that if i cared to i could put them on eBay and get my money back. Thats the beauty of this hobby... other than ammo which is obviously a disposable, if you buy right its hard to lose.

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6 hours ago, Screwball said:

In regards to spending money on a name, that one you are talking about is $240 on Amazon. That is in the realm of a used Aimpoint CompM3... for maybe $30 more.

Overpriced, well that depends on the buyer. If I grab a PRO for $375, I do not feel that is overpriced. 

I would rather a brand new optic than a used one which you have no idea what it's been through.  

The Aimpoint PRO is about as close in price as your gonna get to these "Asian Aimpoints", but still over a C-Note more.

I think the cat is out of the bag, which is why Primary Arms/Holosun are doing so well.  The market has shifted, and the same can be said about firearms.   

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I would rather a brand new optic than a used one which you have no idea what it's been through.  
The Aimpoint PRO is about as close in price as your gonna get to these "Asian Aimpoints", but still over a C-Note more.
I think the cat is out of the bag, which is why Primary Arms/Holosun are doing so well.  The market has shifted, and the same can be said about firearms.


I can say almost the same about an optic that has only been out for a month... because in truth, that Primary Arms one only started getting in people’s hands at the end of July. Aimpoints have been going strong for years (even in my inventory for that length of time; think my first PRO was picked up over five years ago). That is worth a “C-Note” to me... if not more.

I’ll also add, and if you want to confirm it with the Primary Arms thread in their Industry section on AR15.com, the lower cost also is due to lesser grade aluminum being used (page six, if the posts per page line up with mine). One person asked, was told 6061... and Primary Arms said for $250, you aren’t getting 7075. He also said they sell optics made with 7075... and linked a picture of an ACOG (saying for $900). Kind of shoots down your claim when that comes straight from the people selling them.

https://www.ar15.com/forums/Industry/1x-Prism-scope-/325-285110/

Don’t think the cat is out of the bag now, as Holosun has been on scene for over two years. Hey, if you want to invest $240 in an optic... that is all good. Nice part about living in a capitalist country. But same token, you aren’t going to see people using Primary Arms because it is better than Aimpoint at this point in time (again, capitalism). It is being purchased strictly due to price. I predict you likely are going to have another two years or so before QC gets them squared away to a point where that original claim can be considered.

Money can be saved in a multitude of ways. Can physically save money for a purchase, as setting it aside until you accumulate enough. You can also do that at a lesser rate, and buy a mid-grade product. And lastly, you can go extremely cheap. As you move down in price, chances for problems increase... not a terrible thing, but something that needs to be accepted. Primary Arms is in that middle grade, and flea market junk is in that lower one. What needs to be figured out is what part of that section it fits in, and further more, does the buyer feel comfortable putting their money towards it. If you are just going to the range, your needs are very different than someone mounting it on a duty rifle. You also don’t normally see the competition world using them, as they go with equipment that lasts. That isn’t a knock at Primary Arms, but it is keeping it in perspective.
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All valid points, and I own an Aimpoint T-1 that sits on my primary AR.  BUT, like glock of 2004, the industry has caught up.  

I am not saying that these budget optics will replace the big names, as they won't.   But what they do offer is a product that is reliable, durable, cost effective, laden with options, easy to mount and use.  

The bottom line is would I use a Holosun or Primary Arms optic on a firearm designated for defensive use?  Yes.  I have made that step with a 1x8 PA scope.  4 years ago, I would have said no.  Get an Aimpoint PRO if money is an issue.  

Times, have changed.

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I have a Primary Arms scope on my 308 AR, and a Trijicon on my 14in 5.56 AR.. the Primary Arms scope IS really nice.. or I would replace it.. but I personally do not think the quality is equal.. now as to if it is worth the substantial price difference? I don't know thats really a personal preference.. 

I think there are a lot of really good cost conscious optics.. but I don't think they completely replace top tier optics 

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The stack of optics that were supposed to be "just as good as" is about the height of Mt. Fuji. They are always touted as "just as good as" until they inevitably show that they aren't. Im told that the failed return rate on PA and Holosun is a bit high. But the warranties are good. So are they "just as good as" in the context of range fun? Id say that is probably true because its just an inconvenience. But if the criticality was more significant such as a match that had a lot of time and money invested in it or the next level up from there, duty/HD, then Im sure we all agree its time to step up to a unit that is proven in theater worldwide. Can an aimpoint fail? Yes. Is it less likely? Yes. 

 

If I put you in a pit and told you behind the door was a crazed axe murderer and I was opening the door to let him in in 2 minutes. On the table is a custom Wilson 1911 and a RIA 1911. You can pick only 1. Who is picking the RIA based on the premise "its just as good as"?

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4 minutes ago, Shane45 said:

 

If I put you in a pit and told you behind the door was a crazed axe murderer and I was opening the door to let him in in 2 minutes. On the table is a custom Wilson 1911 and a RIA 1911. You can pick only 1. Who is picking the RIA based on the premise "its just as good as"?

Do I have to swipe my credit card before choosing :)

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11 minutes ago, Shane45 said:

The stack of optics that were supposed to be "just as good as" is about the height of Mt. Fuji. They are always touted as "just as good as" until they inevitably show that they aren't. Im told that the failed return rate on PA and Holosun is a bit high. But the warranties are good. So are they "just as good as" in the context of range fun? Id say that is probably true because its just an inconvenience. But if the criticality was more significant such as a match that had a lot of time and money invested in it or the next level up from there, duty/HD, then Im sure we all agree its time to step up to a unit that is proven in theater worldwide. Can an aimpoint fail? Yes. Is it less likely? Yes. 

 

If I put you in a pit and told you behind the door was a crazed axe murderer and I was opening the door to let him in in 2 minutes. On the table is a custom Wilson 1911 and a RIA 1911. You can pick only 1. Who is picking the RIA based on the premise "its just as good as"?

I agree with that.. I think that when people say "just as good" they are taking into account the finance aspect.. which is a false aspect.. 

if an optic is $50 and another is $9,000 and they perform ALMOST as well as one another.. 

it is a fair statement to say "the $50 is a way better value because its almost as good"
but it is incorrect to say "the $50 optic IS just as good" 

I think they mean two very different things.. my Trijicon was not that much more than my PA scope.. the Trijicon is clearly made better.. night and day difference? maybe not.. but definitely better.. 

edit to add.. it WAS definitely more expensive.. but not like in the thousands.. LOL 

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3 hours ago, Shane45 said:

If I put you in a pit and told you behind the door was a crazed axe murderer and I was opening the door to let him in in 2 minutes. On the table is a custom Wilson 1911 and a RIA 1911. You can pick only 1. Who is picking the RIA based on the premise "its just as good as"?

That's easy the RIA 1911.  

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Ive had 4 Primary arms red dots and scopes. Three of the four of them broke. The red dots were only used on ar15s or 22LR. The scope on a scar 17. PA was good about replacing them. I really dont like my odds using a PA optic in a competition or something more serious. Sold the brand new replacements at a loss. 

My aim points have never failed me. Been using them for many years. They are pricey but I really dont care. It’s worth it to me to have peace of mind on a product I have faith in. 

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Yes, Aimpoint and Trijicon are expensive. No, they are not overpriced. As with most things, you get what you pay for - and no, I’m not referring to just the name stamped on the side.

When shopping for anything, best value is the goal, not lowest price. And in my opinion, you get the most for your money with AP and Trijicon. You may pay more initially, but generally your money will go further before it all shakes out.

I just traded an Aimpoint Pro for a Trijicon MRO. I’m excited to try it out. First impressions are positive - clear glass, no noticible magnification or distortion, crisp dot, uncluttered view, nice controls. Retail cost is between $370 and $430. That is pretty competitive with some of the “cheaper” Primary Arms Type optics.

That being said, Holosun is growing on me. I bought a T1 clone (can’t rememebr the exact model number now and I’m not home to run down to the basement and check). I put it on my PCC 2 years ago and other than a slight issue when conducting an initial zeroing (the dot didn’t track - I had to bottom out the adjustment knobs for windage and elevation before the dot tracked with the clicks) I have been unable to break it. I am looking to get 2 more for other project guns. I am not at the duty/HD/SD level of trust yet, but I’m getting there. I will it’s that a few other guys that I know - and whose opinion I hold in high regard - are using them on duty and SD guns with no hesitation. In my line of work, that’s a clue.

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I agree with the statements by earlier posters in that you usually get what you pay for.
Several years ago, I "test drove" several red dot scopes for my AR rifle and ultimately chose an Aimpoint comp M4s, along with an Aimpoint 3x Magnifier, both using LaRue Tactical QD mounts, (a swivel mount for the magnifier).  They have worked well and proved to be quite accurate for me on the range, up to around 200 yards.  For longer distances I would prefer a stronger riflescope, such as a Leupold 4-12x40mm VX-R, but am not yet willing to part with $690 to buy one.

AVB-AMG

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1 hour ago, AVB-AMG said:

I agree with the statements by earlier posters in that you usually get what you pay for.
Several years ago, I "test drove" several red dot scopes for my AR rifle and ultimately chose an Aimpoint comp M4s, along with an Aimpoint 3x Magnifier, both using LaRue Tactical QD mounts, (a swivel mount for the magnifier).  They have worked well and proved to be quite accurate for me on the range, up to around 200 yards.  For longer distances I would prefer a stronger riflescope, such as a Leupold 4-12x40mm VX-R, but am not yet willing to part with $690 to buy one.

AVB-AMG

I ran an eotech, aim point, etc with a magnifier... and so far I like the trijicon accupower way more..

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cannot imagine why anyone would buy a primary arms red dot optic and not buy the aimpoint, there is ZERO things in common except they go on an AR.  The PRO and Comps are proven, reliable, fantastic battery life and issues with them are quite uncommon plus you get the company backing if you need that. 

 

 

If you are budget minded or have less funds, the holosun is the way to go.  Actually, why buy any scope from primary arms with so many great choices out there from good brands.  The eagle sucks, the FOV is attrocious and if you need the lower end variable scopes, you need your head examined to buy the Burris line imho.  Vortex has some options in the primary arms range for those on a budget

16 hours ago, BullzeyeNJ said:

Ive had 4 Primary arms red dots and scopes. Three of the four of them broke. The red dots were only used on ar15s or 22LR. The scope on a scar 17. PA was good about replacing them. I really dont like my odds using a PA optic in a competition or something more serious. Sold the brand new replacements at a loss. 

My aim points have never failed me. Been using them for many years. They are pricey but I really dont care. It’s worth it to me to have peace of mind on a product I have faith in. 

not surprised at all that your PA scopes crapped the bed

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20 hours ago, Shane45 said:

The stack of optics that were supposed to be "just as good as" is about the height of Mt. Fuji. They are always touted as "just as good as" until they inevitably show that they aren't. Im told that the failed return rate on PA and Holosun is a bit high. But the warranties are good. So are they "just as good as" in the context of range fun? Id say that is probably true because its just an inconvenience. But if the criticality was more significant such as a match that had a lot of time and money invested in it or the next level up from there, duty/HD, then Im sure we all agree its time to step up to a unit that is proven in theater worldwide. Can an aimpoint fail? Yes. Is it less likely? Yes. 

 

If I put you in a pit and told you behind the door was a crazed axe murderer and I was opening the door to let him in in 2 minutes. On the table is a custom Wilson 1911 and a RIA 1911. You can pick only 1. Who is picking the RIA based on the premise "its just as good as"?

RIA, easy choice

to the best of my knowledge, no mim parts, people that have them love them and tout their reliability.  Handguns are not rocket science, the 1911 platform is 100yrs old.  Everything comes down to the tolerances and parts used.

 

Taurus 1911 for instance, it's taurus so immediately one thinks no but their pt1911 gets crazy good reviews.  Only bad part is the extractor from what reports say, just like the kimbers, colts and a slew of other 1911s.  Guess what, but a bd wilson extractor in and bam, now you've got a 1911 that's not just 'good as' but one that will go bang everytime.

 

it's all relative but digging on a RIA is not optimal given usage and reports

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On 9/5/2018 at 5:39 AM, Ray Ray said:

I would rather a brand new optic than a used one which you have no idea what it's been through.  

The Aimpoint PRO is about as close in price as your gonna get to these "Asian Aimpoints", but still over a C-Note more.

I think the cat is out of the bag, which is why Primary Arms/Holosun are doing so well.  The market has shifted, and the same can be said about firearms.   

I don't know, I think people are just more price conscious.  I'd feel comfortable beating the hell out of my comp or pro but not the holosun and i love the 2 i have

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On 9/5/2018 at 5:39 AM, Ray Ray said:

I would rather a brand new optic than a used one which you have no idea what it's been through.  

The Aimpoint PRO is about as close in price as your gonna get to these "Asian Aimpoints", but still over a C-Note more.

I think the cat is out of the bag, which is why Primary Arms/Holosun are doing so well.  The market has shifted, and the same can be said about firearms.   

With quality optics comes a price, but also comes build quality. I trust them more used than many brands new. Because quite a few brands are just total crap. 

That being said, I think red dots from the quality names have been obscenely overpriced, and a chunk of that was enabled by patents that are now expired. Unlike with magnified optics where the glass matters, in red dots the lions share of the overall performance goes to the electronics and precise assembly. Both of these things are things multiple cheap labor markets do well, unlike glass (yes, places like Vietnam are increasingly doing optics well, China is improving, but the demand for quality optics across market segments outstrips the supply of quality manufacturers). Looking at the holosun offerings, the only thing aimpoint is bringing to the table they aren't is better coatings and less loss of contrast. There might be better QA, but I suspect build quality, at least as regards accuracy and durability, won't be that far apart in practical use. 

The 1x prismatic scopes will be the next to go, but that's in large part because the big names don't really want to make them. Which is in part because the user base is minimal. It looked like it would be a thing in the competition world, but that has fizzled. I don't think it will be a huge market suddenly developing. The offerings have been there forever for $200-400. 

Vortex, Trijicon, Bushnell, and others have brought serious price drops to quality magnified scopes, but they aren't likely to be cheap anytime soon, and they are in a different league than the cheap PA stuff. PA tried to compete with them, and came to the same conclusions they did and a similar price point. Heck, technically worse as there's no discounter. The PA 1-8 FFP platinum is $1299. Cheaper on paper than the trijicon 1-8 FFP accupower, but I can find the latter on sale for $1050 regularly. 

 

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"it's all relative but digging on a RIA is not optimal given usage and reports"

No, if you get the point its a very good example. Due to the enormous difference in attention given the specific pistol and a very proven track record, it is more likely to work when needed. This of course drives the price point, but given what's at stake, I can justify the value of the greater price point. The RIA may be good. But would you stake your life on it when the odds are in favor of the Wilson? Im not here to denigrate the RIA, but the point is it did not receive the attention or build quality a Wilson has and therefore has a greater chance of failing. And so the point is simply for some people given their intended use, the risk of a failure is too critical thus the willingness to spend more money to buy every ounce of failure advantage they can. 

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32 minutes ago, Shane45 said:

"it's all relative but digging on a RIA is not optimal given usage and reports"

No, if you get the point its a very good example. Due to the enormous difference in attention given the specific pistol and a very proven track record, it is more likely to work when needed. This of course drives the price point, but given what's at stake, I can justify the value of the greater price point. The RIA may be good. But would you stake your life on it when the odds are in favor of the Wilson? Im not here to denigrate the RIA, but the point is it did not receive the attention or build quality a Wilson has and therefore has a greater chance of failing. And so the point is simply for some people given their intended use, the risk of a failure is too critical thus the willingness to spend more money to buy every ounce of failure advantage they can. 

No, im not missing any point  and your rationale is faulty here. We are not talking about some new invention but a 100 year-old design. Tolerances and parts used are what matters. I would take that riaa over a plethora of other 1911's because I know they use no MIM parts I know the reviews are excellent and more importantly, instead of trying to build a masterpiece work of art that people are just going to Ogle at, they actually built a fire on that you can use and will. work

Never equate price with quality.

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@Ray Ray it boils down to your life, your dollars.. and then good reputation and costumer service..

now for other stuff? Why not? But Id prefer to not vary to much on the “ manual of arms” with what I plink with..

after all, @High Exposure @GRIZ Say practice makes perfect permanence. And isn’t it all practice? Practically 

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9 hours ago, Shane45 said:

No, if you get the point its a very good example. 

It is a very good example, but like @myhatinthering said, the RIA are built to be used and abused.  The Wilson Combat is, in all seriousness, built to look at in your safe, show your boys at the range, shoot tiny groups, clean her religiously and put her back in the safe.

Which is also why the PA and holosun optics sell so well, cause they get used and abused.  Nobody is throwing their AR around if it has a 600 dollar red dot on top with a 100 dollar mount.  But, drop the price by half and shit gets banged up, scratched, dropped and worn.

I know I know, @Shane45 is gonna say he abuses his high end stuff.  But he got $$$$.

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