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Ray Ray

Aimpoint/Trijicon, are they overpriced?

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Well myhatinthering, I think I know my way around a 1911 fairly well.  Dave Sample was my teacher on building 1911's. I know what it takes to build one right. And after working on a few customer RIA's and having hands on a number of Wilsons, Ed Browns, etc etc the difference is much more than looks. Dont make the mistake that thinking just because its more expensive it cant be better.

But I digress, the POINT was that Holosuns and RIA's may be a good value and meets the needs of many. But when you cross the line into criticality, the value proposition means a lot less.

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9 hours ago, Ray Ray said:

It is a very good example, but like @myhatinthering said, the RIA are built to be used and abused.  The Wilson Combat is, in all seriousness, built to look at in your safe, show your boys at the range, shoot tiny groups, clean her religiously and put her back in the safe.

This is 100% wrong Ray.

Just because that is how you would treat these two guns does not mean that is what they were built to do.

The truth of the matter is the RIA is built for the recreational shooter that may put 500 rounds a year through their gun and kept in the safe the rest of the time.

The Wilson is built to be more robust and more reliable over a longer lifespan. To be “used and abused” as you say, by people that fire thousands of rounds (if not tens of thousands of rounds) a year.

Lets take Shane’s scenario a step further - you have the two 1911s on the table that you can use to save your life. One Wilson and one RIA. They are both beat to hell. Dinged up, scratched, covered in sand and mud. I mean, really, really beat to hell. Looking at the two guns, you’d be surprised if either of them work at all - but it’s all you have: Which one do you grab?

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9 hours ago, Shane45 said:

Well myhatinthering, I think I know my way around a 1911 fairly well.  Dave Sample was my teacher on building 1911's. I know what it takes to build one right. And after working on a few customer RIA's and having hands on a number of Wilsons, Ed Browns, etc etc the difference is much more than looks. Dont make the mistake that thinking just because its more expensive it cant be better.

But I digress, the POINT was that Holosuns and RIA's may be a good value and meets the needs of many. But when you cross the line into criticality, the value proposition means a lot less.

I hear you and would never make that mistake but the hubris of thinking of quality is tied to expense is prevalent.  I'm sure Wilson is a fine handgun, I like many of their products but it's not like wilson hasn't had returns, just go to their forums.  I know I can shoot the shit out my pt1911 and my loaded springfield and they will run.  I wouldn't shoot the shit out of a kimber given the reviews and I've yet to meet anyone with an RIA that doesn't love it's reliability.  Their reviews are outstanding!  so when asked which would I choose, I'll choose the one I know was made to shoot vs the one with tolerances that were done with craftsmanship in mind.  I'd be more than happy to run some killer drills with both is supplied with the firearms, I'll supply the ammo.

I don't think optics are the same imho.  I know I can kill my comp or pro and they are gonna work, I know if i kill my holosun it's gonna die. 

Now I'm not like other firearms owners, these are tools and not trophies to look at in the safe (well most are not but the collectables are a different story).  I am not easy on them and each year I pick one to abuse like an unwanted stepchild.  Having had a DI for a father, I know the importance of cleaning, inspection etc however, my last three bitches were home built dissy, lwrc and colt socom.  I will shoot thousands (4-6) mostly wolf  through them with no cleaning, I'll freeze them out side before the range, I'll drop, kick, leave in rain etc etc.  I think it's fun and guess what, the cheap optics like a holosun died, the pro, and acog held up.  I'd like to do this with the variable scopes next and do some builds I can play with.

more than happy to kill some handguns if anyone wants but you'll need to pony up the wilson:)

 

 

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21 minutes ago, High Exposure said:

This is 100% wrong Ray.

Just because that is how you would treat these two guns does not mean that is what they were built to do.

The truth of the matter is the RIA is built for the recreational shooter that may put 500 rounds a year through their gun and kept in the safe the rest of the time.

The Wilson is built to be more robust and more reliable over a longer lifespan. To be “used and abused” as you say, by people that fire thousands of rounds (if not tens of thousands of rounds) a year.

Lets take Shane’s scenario a step further - you have the two 1911s on the table that you can use to save your life. One Wilson and one RIA. They are both beat to hell. Dinged up, scratched, covered in sand and mud. I mean, really, really beat to hell. Looking at the two guns, you’d be surprised if either of them work at all - but it’s all you have: Which one do you grab?

couldn't disagree more, just go their forums.  Tell you guys what, I'll post some links with some 'return reviews'.  once again, we are not talking about rocket science here.  We are talking about a 100yr old design that was even copied by the japs during the waning stages of ww2 for combat and guess what, they worked!

Wilson is pretty, it's made with great attention to detail but let's not kid ourselves, they have owners with issues just like anyone else.

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by the way, I know tone doesn't come through in text or messages so just wanted to say, I'm saying everything with purely friendly and non aggressive intent.  we're all on the same side here:)

 

I do think the market is lacking better reviews and testing of the variable scopes.  I happen to love the burris mtac and it's a fking tank.  Not sure of any real abuse testing on these type of scopes though

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Agreed, good respectful discussion and debate. Im personally not a fan of forum reviews for pistols. The math is to much for me to parse. I think you can get a good sense of a common issues from them but thats about it. What I mean is what is the calculation to figure out the psychology of the dude that paid 4k for a 1911 and how nitpicky he may be vs the dude that paid 600 and doesn't really have an expectation? Whats the calculation to figure out the ratio of bad reviews for a manufacturer that puts out 100,000 pistols vs one that puts out a tenth of that and tie that back to expectations. I am more talking about the attention to detail on the internals and the materials used that will aid in its reliability and durability. We could talk all day about anecdotal and meaningful samples. Which is why Im not talking about customer RIA"s I have worked on, the sample is too small. But I am really getting in the weeds here. My original point was that I will and many others will pay a high premium for the additional work done by hand to insure long time reliability and build quality for critical use. Same thing for optics, but more of a refinement in manufacturing perspective. If Holosun made an optice that was found to be bomb proof and matched all abilities of an aimpoint and thus got adopted and field proven equivalent to what Aimpoint has accomplished then by all means I would use it in a critical scenario and enjoy the savings! But I haven't seen any other optic maker achieve that.... yet.

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4 hours ago, High Exposure said:

This is 100% wrong Ray.

Lets take Shane’s scenario a step further - you have the two 1911s on the table that you can use to save your life. One Wilson and one RIA. They are both beat to hell. Dinged up, scratched, covered in sand and mud. I mean, really, really beat to hell. Looking at the two guns, you’d be surprised if either of them work at all - but it’s all you have: Which one do you grab?

In all honesty, I would not trust a 1911 with my life.  Now, if in some weird world where I fell into a ditch and those two guns where sitting there and I needed one to save my life?  I'd grab boff.  Chamber check each one, put one in my wasteband and make motha effa's red until the gun be empty.  Then NY reload and spray kats some more.

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On 9/6/2018 at 10:05 PM, Ray Ray said:

It is a very good example, but like @myhatinthering said, the RIA are built to be used and abused.  The Wilson Combat is, in all seriousness, built to look at in your safe, show your boys at the range, shoot tiny groups, clean her religiously and put her back in the safe.

Which is also why the PA and holosun optics sell so well, cause they get used and abused.  Nobody is throwing their AR around if it has a 600 dollar red dot on top with a 100 dollar mount.  But, drop the price by half and shit gets banged up, scratched, dropped and worn.

I know I know, @Shane45 is gonna say he abuses his high end stuff.  But he got $$$$.

There is a small difference tho,Aimpoint and trijicon have already beat the shit out of their optics for you in testing. 

Since these guys get le and military contracts, a lot of the price is in designs that eliminate failure points.

While many will never abuse their optics,  or even their firearms, it's important for them that if they have to, they can. 

It's not to say others won't be as reliable, but you have so much real world experience to trust in. 

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I have a Trijicon Rm01 on my VP9 and a Vortex venom on my FNX45 tactical. Honestly the Trijicon looks better but I don’t know if it’s worth the extra few hundred bucks.The Vortex gets the job done, and I still manage to get some pretty good groups. 

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I personally don't like EOTech, but they're good. If you believe a Vortex Sparc AR or PA Red Dot is as good as Aimpoint, MRO, LCO...I got a bridge to sell you.

If you're gonna tell me a vortex or PA scope is "just as good" as a Nightforce or Accupoint/Accupower, then I know you're talkin out of your ass :rofl:

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3 minutes ago, Lord_Fudd said:

I personally don't like EOTech, but they're good. If you believe a Vortex Sparc AR or PA Red Dot is as good as Aimpoint, MRO, LCO...I got a bridge to sell you.

If you're gonna tell me a vortex or PA scope is "just as good" as a Nightforce or Accupoint/Accupower, then I know you're talkin out of your ass :rofl:

I didn't say "just as good".  They are an excellent budget option.  Nobody here is kicking in doors in Syria.  

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Fudd is right, while ok for the range, for a few bucks more you are nuts not to buy better. 

I also disagree with Ray on the 2008 vs 2018 as too much of 2018 is chinese crap.  Quality is worse today, that's not really disputable either.  Like Fudd said,stick with the good brands and don't look back

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I also have been expirmenting more with 1-8’s. On my 308 I run a Trijicon Accupower 1-8 which is perfect for that gun, my Noveske currently runs a MRO, my LWRC runs a NX8 but I was running a LCO for some time. I’m gonna build another Noveske in the near future and put the LCO on that. I have my SOT so that will be an SBR.

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I tend to be pretty hard on a rifle/optic, especially while out on the ranch. They get banged around, tossed in pickup trucks, and generally used and abused out there. 

I need an optic that can take a licking and keep on ticking. I prefer Trijicon ACOGs(think I have 6 now)...for one, they are pretty well bulletproof, and two, my 52 year old eyes aren’t what they used to be, and I need the magnification. I have one TA-31F in particular that has been beat to shit, but has never lost zero, or failed me in ANY way. Hell, I lost my footing out there once while on top of the hill, and slid about 40’ down on my back, with most of my weight on my rifle. the optic and the rifle had some scratches, but never lost zero. I did have to pick a lot of cactus thorns out of my ass, though. 

Yep, they ain’t cheap, (and they aren’t ideal for everyone’s needs), but they work for me, and have been absolutely reliable. I’ll pay good money for an optic (or for that matter, ANY gear) I don’t have to worry about babying, and that meets my needs. I don’t call that ‘overpriced’, I call that good value. 

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Great topic and lots of good points. 

Not 100% caught up on the newest optics but will say... price does not always equal quality... just look at all the eotech issues in the past.

For scopes, this is why I am a fan of Nikon.  Great quality glass, but does not have the reputation in the gun world to command premium prices.  Reputation or perhaps marketing dollars?

As to the Wilson vs RIA... whichever gun I had experience with in the past or know what was done with it.... or "a Glock."

I have shot plenty of cheap 1911's such as RIAs and Taurus and can easily say they are good quality guns with a high degree of reliability.  Yes, their tolerances are hand fitted and they are not as smooth as glass... but that is also what makes them pretty reliable.

Again, the locked room question... Wilson vs RIA....

Are the guns cleaned and lubed?  Are we indoors or outside with sand blowing everywhere?

I am not familiar with Wilsons and their methodology BUT... replace wilson with almost any gun made for gun games, such as my SVI... and the answer is simple... RIA!  

The SVI is an amazing 2011, super tight, super accurate and 100% reliable (when cleaned/lubed)... BUT I know that any time the magazine hits the ground or a piece of fine gravel or any sand blows on the gun... it is time to strip it and clean it.

A great place to see this in action is towards the middle and end of the day at Shot Show media day when the prototype and hand built guns are out of commission meanwhile the basic Glocks at the booth are running with no signs of slowing down.

So in essence, if your life depended on it, would you rather have a Russian AK or a fancy AR made to stay under 1MOA out to 1,000 yards... give me the AK all day long if we are talking about peace of mind it will go bang at some bag guys at under 50 yards.

It really boils down to the purpose.... and that is why a Glock is a glock.  You don't buy one for accuracy or status to show off to your friends.

If Wilson was built for combat/reliability... yes would have that.  If it was built for accuracy and as a showpiece... give me the "built for idiots" RIA or Taurus.... and in both cases, as much as I LOVE my 1911s, I would prefer any glock if we are talking about the probability the gun will go "bang."

 

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Well, since September, MCARBO has only put out a statement that their next prototype mount will be debuted this week... so guessing tomorrow. Still not holding my breathe, but should be getting closer (hoping first quarter). I did get it squared away with the internals... and with everything they put out, it actually feels like shooting a real gun, opposed to an airsoft/BB gun.

I did pick up a red-dot for my SUB-2000... SIG Romeo 5. Was originally going to get the one with the AAA batteries, but want to keep it low to the rail, so I have some options with whatever the MCARBO mount gives me (would like cowitness). Got it with Black Friday deals, and it doesn’t feel like garbage. Kind of holding off on mounting until I do it how I intend to run it, but still not a fan of the smaller tubes. It’s doable, but still like my PRO/CompM4s over it.

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On 12/17/2018 at 8:37 PM, myhatinthering said:

Fudd is right, while ok for the range, for a few bucks more you are nuts not to buy better. 

I also disagree with Ray on the 2008 vs 2018 as too much of 2018 is chinese crap.  Quality is worse today, that's not really disputable either.  Like Fudd said,stick with the good brands and don't look back

Of course there is Chinese junk.  But not all things out of China are junk.  The phone in your hand is made in China and you could potentially use that to save a life.  So, if they can figure out how to make these phones better and better don't you think they figured out this optic thing as well?  Also, IIRC one of the big wigs at Trijicon left to Primary Arms and took with him the knowledge and skills to build their brand.  They have become a legit company making excellent optics at an affordable price for the everyday man.  Win 

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8 minutes ago, Ray Ray said:

Of course there is Chinese junk.  But not all things out of China are junk.  The phone in your hand is made in China and you could potentially use that to save a life.  So, if they can figure out how to make these phones better and better don't you think they figured out this optic thing as well?  Also, IIRC one of the big wigs at Trijicon left to Primary Arms and took with him the knowledge and skills to build their brand.  They have become a legit company making excellent optics at an affordable price for the everyday man.  Win 

this is where you get retarded with your idiotic comparisons...lol

tell you what, you buy me a holosun/PA red dot and I'll buy another pro and let me abuse both, I'll even film it and then you tell me what you think.  You guys may not recall but each year I pick a bitch to abuse and the year with the holsun, it died early but my aimpoints are still good.  I'll get a pic of one of them that looks like it was dragged from a truck it's been so beat up

 

as for your phone analogy, of course it's junk as its' made in China and not made to last more than a few years.  Phones are not getting better, sure they are having more features but they are not getting better.  In fact, the writedown analysis for cell phones does not exceed 3yrs any longer for ohhhhh EVERYONE because they are $hit, people are expected to turn them in and if you don't then you are sol.  Ever wonder why as the increase in shit from China the decrease in warranty time?  Only part of that is consumer behavior and phones are a great example of this.  Let you in another little secret, the time to new product/phone upgrades has shortened as a result of not having a quality product and to combat warranty returns.   I had my grad class do a case study on this, it's quite interesting how the market has drastically changed in this regard

15 minutes ago, Ray Ray said:

Of course there is Chinese junk.  But not all things out of China are junk.  The phone in your hand is made in China and you could potentially use that to save a life.  So, if they can figure out how to make these phones better and better don't you think they figured out this optic thing as well?  Also, IIRC one of the big wigs at Trijicon left to Primary Arms and took with him the knowledge and skills to build their brand.  They have become a legit company making excellent optics at an affordable price for the everyday man.  Win 

that's not all how these optics came about.  Marshall went to China, had them deconstruct them and then build them.  There is a thread on arfcom regarding this.  The problem is the contact points, wires, etc etc are not the same nor is the outer shell the same.

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34 minutes ago, Shane45 said:

"IIRC one of the big wigs at Trijicon left to Primary Arms and took with him the knowledge and skills to build their brand."

I think your confusing them with Browe. 

http://www.browe-inc.com/categories/4x32-BROWE-Combat-Optic-(BCO)/

No, I am correct.   Thanks 

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1 hour ago, Ray Ray said:

Of course there is Chinese junk.  But not all things out of China are junk.  The phone in your hand is made in China and you could potentially use that to save a life.  So, if they can figure out how to make these phones better and better don't you think they figured out this optic thing as well?  Also, IIRC one of the big wigs at Trijicon left to Primary Arms and took with him the knowledge and skills to build their brand.  They have become a legit company making excellent optics at an affordable price for the everyday man.  Win 

nice whataboutism. stop being poor.

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