Aimpoint/Trijicon, are they overpriced?

[High Exposure 5,661]

44 minutes ago, Lord_Fudd said:

You listen to Joe too muchl, only reason I know is because I've seen his instagram posts shooting with you, plus every time I talk to him he tries to go for the hard sell on Holosun, just stop 

Yup. I know Joe. I shoot with Joe. So what?

Go back and look at my posts here. Aimpoint all the way. Quality gear with value being the deciding factor, not price. “You get what you pay for” “Measure best value against lowest price” and “Buy once, cry once” are the order of the day when buying firearms and related gear.

That being said, I understand not everyone can afford an $800 Aimpoint T2 in a Geissele Mount for each of their carbines or $3000 Nightforce scopes with appropriate rings for each long gun.

There are other acceptable options if you understand the shortcomings ahead of time and where the cost savings are coming from. If you are OK with that, then that is an informed decision and makes you an educated consumer.

I still would not recommend Primary Arms, Nikon, or low end Vortex RDS for a gun that will see moderate to serious use. Definitely out for a gun you are planning to use for social purposes.

I wouldn’t recomend an NC Star, UTG, or Leapers for any gun you plan on shooting even once.

And, I wouldn’t put a Holosun on a gun I am planning to bet my life on - yet. But yeah, I am getting there. Through personal experience and the use of an optic that I bought with my own money and have been putting through its paces.

[High Exposure 5,661]

7 minutes ago, Lord_Fudd said:

if It's something you're using for matches, why wouldn't you throw an Aimpoint/EOTech/Trijicon/Leupold on it? for a beater .22, sure throw a cheap optic on it. I just got the HK 416 22LR, I threw my Leupold Mark AR 1.5-4 on that because it didn't have a home. My AR-10 has a Trijicon Accupower 1-8, my LWRC has a NX8, one of my Noveske's has a Leupold LCO, the other has MRO on it. I'm pretty sure you can scour ebay and Amazon and get a MRO for the same price as a Holosun.

2 reasons - 

1) All my higher end optics already Have jobs on other rifles.

2) I want to see what the Holosun is capable of. Besides, it’s only a match. The fate of the free world doesn’t depend on if my optic goes down. 

I have an MRO and an SRS. I like the SRS but I am not a giant fan of the MRO. It is not a true 1x optic.

My SW AR15-22 has an EOTurd on it. I currently trust the Holosun over the EO.

[Rufio.Weaponworks 57]

13 minutes ago, High Exposure said:

Yup. I know Joe. I shoot with Joe. So what?

Go back and look at my posts here. Aimpoint all the way. Quality gear with value being the deciding factor, not price. “You get what you pay for” “Measure best value against lowest price” and “Buy once, cry once” are the order of the day when buying firearms and related gear.

That being said, I understand not everyone can afford an $800 Aimpoint T2 in a Geissele Mount for each of their carbines or $3000 Nightforce scopes with appropriate rings for each long gun.

There are other acceptable options if you understand the shortcomings ahead of time and where the cost savings are coming from. If you are OK with that, then that is an informed decision and makes you an educated consumer.

I still would not recommend Primary Arms, Nikon, or low end Vortex RDS for a gun that will see moderate to serious use. Definitely out for a gun you are planning to use for social purposes.

I wouldn’t recomend an NC Star, UTG, or Leapers for any gun you plan on shooting even once.

And, I wouldn’t put a Holosun on a gun I am planning to bet my life on - yet. But yeah, I am getting there. Through personal experience and the use of an optic that I bought with my own money and have been putting through its paces.

I don’t, i will swap optics around as needed until I can get another dedicated one. I don’t have a massive gun collection so currently all of my guns have optics dedicated, but for future guns, I’ll probably swap optics around until I could afford another optic. Usually if i’m buying a nee gun i’ll also budget money for an optic as well, but if not I’ll swap optics around like i said...chances are the old gun with a fancy optic on it won’t be shot for a while if I have a new gun. 

[myhatinthering 462]

12 minutes ago, Lord_Fudd said:

I think with KAC those proprietary parts solve much of the issues in the AR platform. 

I had a Colt 6920 as my first AR, it was great and is probably the best starter AR for anyone, but the stock trigger is awful. Could use an upgrade amongst many other things, but that's why I sold my 6920, all the upgrades I wanted to make to it, would have turned a $900 rifle in to a $1800 rifle and for $1800 I rather have the Noveske or LWRC. Noveske's reliability standard is still up there, a lot of companies report round counts in the 20k+ range now too, but Noveske was one of the first.

????

I agree that KAC's has improved on the platform but was it needed?  ARs have performed incredibly well in all environments and at a fraction of the cost.  KAC in the AR community is the loser kid that is fat and dumpy and got a litle coin and a little success in life and bought a porsche but is still the overweight balding loser that needed the porsche for self esteem issues...lol.  Noting on the KAC warrants the price and the prop bolt sinks it in my eyes. 

Noveske was never known for reliability, that's pretty much accepted in the AR community.  As for qc, they had issues but they did turn great barrels but now more are.  I do like the beefier upper receiver on the front end but again, Hendersons isn't seeing uppers crack until 250k rounds.  Again, a feature to make them different but not needed.

No mods you are doing to the 6920 is bringing you to 1800-2000 so let's at least be honest here and everyone's stock trigger is awful save Aero Precisions. 

We can debate it all day but colts has done very very well for a very long time and in all theaters.  What is needed is a new caliber imho, not marginal improvements.  We're taking steps when what is needed is leaps

[Rufio.Weaponworks 57]

$1800 not possible? Hold my beer.

rifle- $900

Geissele trigger-$200

Midwest Industries free float conversion: $250 for rail, $100 for new muzzle brake, $200 for labor to unpin the old one, re thread barrel, pin new one.

adjustable gas block: $100

Magoul SL stock: $40

my math is $890 in modifications to a $900 rifle. Making it an $1790 rifle. 

[myhatinthering 462]

27 minutes ago, Lord_Fudd said:

$1800 not possible? Hold my beer.

rifle- $900

Geissele trigger-$200

Midwest Industries free float conversion: $250 for rail, $100 for new muzzle brake, $200 for labor to unpin the old one, re thread barrel, pin new one.

adjustable gas block: $100

Magoul SL stock: $40

my math is $890 in modifications to a $900 rifle. Making it an $1790 rifle. 

look, if you are adding all of that, you are doing that to almost every rifle you buy.

Geiselle..no, go MBT at 87

250 for a ff, lol, c'mon they are far cheaper than that now.  What do you want, I'll find it cheaper

adj gas block, 50, wilson combat

dude, you are not even close so stop.  Been there done that, trust me. 

[Rufio.Weaponworks 57]

48 minutes ago, myhatinthering said:

look, if you are adding all of that, you are doing that to almost every rifle you buy.

Geiselle..no, go MBT at 87

250 for a ff, lol, c'mon they are far cheaper than that now.  What do you want, I'll find it cheaper

adj gas block, 50, wilson combat

dude, you are not even close so stop.  Been there done that, trust me. 

Look up the prices on a MI rail. Then the cost of labor of removing the old muzzle brake, barrel threading, new brake + pinning. 

Would i do this to every rifle i own? No, I actually don’t. My LWRC the only components I upgraded was the trigger (geissele SSA-E) and Magpul SL stock. Plus I added the LWRC Handstop, so $270 in upgrades to a $2k rifle. Everything about the LWRC I liked from the factory, and there isn’t much to upgrade.

my 2 Noveskes? Both I assembled from stripped lowers and all noveske OEM parts + a timney trigger in each, no milspec or ACT trigger. Both rifles retail for $2500, my total cost came to $1600 and $1800 respectively.

my 308 is a Windham Weaponry I paid $1600 for, only upgrades I put in to the rifle were a Timney Trigger, Magpul Bipod and a UBR stock (which I didn’t pay for either magpul part) but for the sake of adding up prices, that’s $550 in upgrades to a $1600 rifle. This came with a midwest industries rail from the factory.

[Zeke 5,504]

Gear snob?

not a good label 

[Rufio.Weaponworks 57]

Better than being labeled a poor.

guns are my vice, I don’t have any other extravagant spending habits, I’m not married (key words here), so why not get it while I can. I also work in the gun industry and have my FFL/SOT, so what I pay for most of this stuff is significantly less than the average joe does. 

Back when I had the colt, I didn’t have my FFL, so I still had to have neutered rifles. 

 

 

 

[Zeke 5,504]

That was easy 

[Rufio.Weaponworks 57]

Even if I didn’t have inside connections, i still wouldn’t cheap out. I bought the LWRC, Windham & 1 of my Noveskes before I got in. Buying a Nightforce at full price was on the agenda, but had other priorities before that, like paying for my FFL/SOT. That shit wasn’t cheap. Home security system, a decent safe + the licensing fees could have bought me a Barrett 82A1, at least that would have came with a nightforce.....all of which is still significantly cheaper than legal representation and the debt to New Jersey if I were to ever be caught with any of the stuff on my FFL inventory without the license. 

[myhatinthering 462]

2 hours ago, Lord_Fudd said:

Look up the prices on a MI rail. Then the cost of labor of removing the old muzzle brake, barrel threading, new brake + pinning. 

Would i do this to every rifle i own? No, I actually don’t. My LWRC the only components I upgraded was the trigger (geissele SSA-E) and Magpul SL stock. Plus I added the LWRC Handstop, so $270 in upgrades to a $2k rifle. Everything about the LWRC I liked from the factory, and there isn’t much to upgrade.

my 2 Noveskes? Both I assembled from stripped lowers and all noveske OEM parts + a timney trigger in each, no milspec or ACT trigger. Both rifles retail for $2500, my total cost came to $1600 and $1800 respectively.

my 308 is a Windham Weaponry I paid $1600 for, only upgrades I put in to the rifle were a Timney Trigger, Magpul Bipod and a UBR stock (which I didn’t pay for either magpul part) but for the sake of adding up prices, that’s $550 in upgrades to a $1600 rifle. This came with a midwest industries rail from the factory.

stop....nothing you are saying is even remotely real. 

Noveske doesn't cost 2500 and only a fool would pay 1600 for a wyndham

now you just look silly

[Zeke 5,504]

Full stop

[Ray Ray 3,566]

4 hours ago, Lord_Fudd said:

$1800 not possible? Hold my beer.

rifle- $900

Geissele trigger-$200

Midwest Industries free float conversion: $250 for rail, $100 for new muzzle brake, $200 for labor to unpin the old one, re thread barrel, pin new one.

adjustable gas block: $100

Magoul SL stock: $40

my math is $890 in modifications to a $900 rifle. Making it an $1790 rifle. 

A 700 dollar AR will do the same thing.

[Zeke 5,504]

@Shane45 you need to appreciate the debate... or the forced debate.

Um is that like rape debate?

[Zeke 5,504]

11 minutes ago, Ray Ray said:

A 700 dollar AR will do the same thing.

Bilge!

the psa sales will do the same at tree fiddy

[Ray Ray 3,566]

44 minutes ago, Zeke said:

Bilge!

the psa sales will do the same at tree fiddy

I stand, corrected.

[Shane45 807]

SIgh... you guys wear me out. I wish I could put "will do the same thing" or "just as good" on the ignore function. I have explained many times the difference between cost and value. Value is a personal affair! One cannot decide another's value for something. I will NEVER understand the cost of a Birkin Bag, but I can appreciate there are those that do see the value and are willing to pay for it. I personally place a high value on AR's that have considerable reliability and endurance. In my opinion other AR's do not match those aspects of a KAC. Last I looked, there were NO broken proprietary bolts. People like Travis Haley and Chris Costa had ridiculous round counts on theirs, as in closing in on 100k rounds level round counts on the original bolt. Others may not place such a value on these attributes and therefore the value proposition is different for them. Much the same that a Holosun is good enough for their activities and needs. But I really cant stand someone saying its just as good as, because it meets their "value and needs" but have not considered they may be different than mine. But from a mechanical aspect the bolt designs of the SR15/16 or the SCAR16 for that matter have an advantage over other AR15's. How much value you place on that is up to the INDIVIDUAL. Specifically the SR15 is considered a very good value.  You get a lot for your money there. Dont believe me, look at the resale. It is practically immune to what the AR market is doing, much like the SCAR is. But let me say this, for me, Id rather have 1 SR15 with an Aimpoint than 3 6920's with Holosuns! But thats MY value proposition.

[Rufio.Weaponworks 57]

13 hours ago, myhatinthering said:

stop....nothing you are saying is even remotely real. 

Noveske doesn't cost 2500 and only a fool would pay 1600 for a wyndham

now you just look silly

Uh, look at the cost of a Gen 3 N4 on Noveske’s website, occasionally you’ll find a deal, but dealer pricing on Noveske is 25% less than list price on their website. I built both of my Noveskes during their 25% off sales in the past.

also not sure where this lack of reliability you speak of in their rifles are. I have 10k rounds through one of mine, 9k through the other with no problems (this one I ran suppressed for 3k of those rounds). One runs their phosphate BCG the other uses their marked RCA BCG. Only thing I had to do was replace gas rings on the phosphate one, other wise no issues. Both are Gen 3, which are Mega receiver sets, haven’t seen any of these issues you speak of.

the windham? Again look on their site and look at the cost of the 308

https://www.windhamweaponry.com/firearms/rifles/308-caliber-rifle/r16sfst-308-2/

 

that’s a list price, which again i bought this gun pre FFL/SOT days, bought it already NJ compliant for $1600 with tax and transfer fees included and that was with a veterans discount from the shop I bought from (Lou’s in Raritan). 

Occasionally you can get that particular model from WW for less, but I shopped around, Lou’s had the best price. For decent AR-10, 1600 is cheap. 

[Rufio.Weaponworks 57]

And just so we’re clear, I’m not flexing on any of you, as I said I work in the industry, I can get a lot of this stuff at reduced cost and sometimes at manufacturing cost so if you want stuff from these places, let me know.

I’m not a retail FFL, I’m a manufacturer, so I don’t make money selling goods directly to consumers. I can help you out as much as possible, if there’s a gun/optic/ammo/ gear you want just DM me and I’ll see what I can do!

[Zeke 5,504]

Got the wife a holosun for her PCC build. Mimics the the t-2 well enough . I guess we shall see how it holds up

[myhatinthering 462]

On 12/29/2018 at 4:22 PM, Zeke said:

Got the wife a holosun for her PCC build. Mimics the the t-2 well enough . I guess we shall see how it holds up

Will be great for that

[JackDaWack 2,895]

On 12/21/2018 at 10:44 PM, Shane45 said:

SIgh... you guys wear me out. I wish I could put "will do the same thing" or "just as good" on the ignore function. I have explained many times the difference between cost and value. Value is a personal affair! One cannot decide another's value for something. I will NEVER understand the cost of a Birkin Bag, but I can appreciate there are those that do see the value and are willing to pay for it. I personally place a high value on AR's that have considerable reliability and endurance. In my opinion other AR's do not match those aspects of a KAC. Last I looked, there were NO broken proprietary bolts. People like Travis Haley and Chris Costa had ridiculous round counts on theirs, as in closing in on 100k rounds level round counts on the original bolt. Others may not place such a value on these attributes and therefore the value proposition is different for them. Much the same that a Holosun is good enough for their activities and needs. But I really cant stand someone saying its just as good as, because it meets their "value and needs" but have not considered they may be different than mine. But from a mechanical aspect the bolt designs of the SR15/16 or the SCAR16 for that matter have an advantage over other AR15's. How much value you place on that is up to the INDIVIDUAL. Specifically the SR15 is considered a very good value.  You get a lot for your money there. Dont believe me, look at the resale. It is practically immune to what the AR market is doing, much like the SCAR is. But let me say this, for me, Id rather have 1 SR15 with an Aimpoint than 3 6920's with Holosuns! But thats MY value proposition.

I fully understand the point of quality gear that, like the KAC, produces a proprietary system that increased durability and reliability. JP makes a similar enhanced bolt that has some of those features you can add to any system. 

Some of the draw back is the proprietary system itself and the obvious cost. IF something does break, you can find yourself with out any weapon, or a very expensive fix. 

 

Now what I DO NOT understand is this notion that a Noveske has anything to offer that most quality AR parts don't offer already. It's also a little asinine to start making cost comparisons if your getting gear at list price.  

 

When it comes to optics, there is no substitute for proven success and long time track records. Producing good glass will never be cheap, and creating solid beefy electronics requires a high degree of engineering. But keep it mind, deciding to pay an extra 150-200 bucks for an optic is much different than a few extra grand. 

[High Exposure 5,661]

Way back in time when I started my journey down this rabbit hole, a really smart short Irish guy who whistled when he spoke pulled me aside and told me “The mission drives the gear train”.

This advice has served me well with every purchase I have ever made.

[Shane45 807]

Spares to whatever your system is is always prudent.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

I fully agree with the both of you.. Spares for spares, and buy what you need and that which will serve you well.

 

I just cant get over this "don't be poor" comment, then the guy doesn't even buy a KAC that HAS the increased reliability/durability over the others... Piecing together a Noveske is no different that piecing together most quality AR components today. Personally i think you could get better results for the money going a different route, using parts like a JP matched enhanced bolt and barrel.

 

[Shane45 807]

I wouldn't have chosen the word poor, but I am a fan of illuminating the concepts of false economics. But as I am sure you know some people become emotionally vested in their selections. Im not pointing at anyone specifically in this thread, I am just speaking generally.

[Rufio.Weaponworks 57]

4 hours ago, JackDaWack said:

I fully agree with the both of you.. Spares for spares, and buy what you need and that which will serve you well.

 

I just cant get over this "don't be poor" comment, then the guy doesn't even buy a KAC that HAS the increased reliability/durability over the others... Piecing together a Noveske is no different that piecing together most quality AR components today. Personally i think you could get better results for the money going a different route, using parts like a JP matched enhanced bolt and barrel.

 

piecing together a Noveske: $1600

Buying a Complete Noveske: $2500

[JackDaWack 2,895]

9 minutes ago, Lord_Fudd said:

piecing together a Noveske: $1600

Buying a Complete Noveske: $2500

If your going tit for tat on parts.... that kinda says a lot...

But this has nothing to do with what I was saying...

If you want to build Noveske rifles, go for it... wont hear me say nuthin bad about them...nor will i tell you how to spend your money.

[Rufio.Weaponworks 57]

Why pay the markup because of a complete weapons tax when you can assemble the lower and buy the complete upper assembly for almost a grand less? Same exact rifle and money left over to buy a good optic. 

I do also buy complete rifles, not every gun has the same luxury.