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I DON'T NEED LIGHTS FOR MY FIREARMS: CHANGE MY MIND

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30 minutes ago, blksheep said:

This is at no one specific...

Please take a class with a reputable instructor.  

Pistol, Rifle, Low-Light...sumtin.

What? That’s insanity!!!!

:rofl::rofl::rofl: 

People would have to slay some of their sacred cows and perform in front of others! Don’t be silly. Everyone knows that when we are born we are granted all the skills necessary to be a gunfighter. 

Much much easier and cheaper to just say “I know what to do, my untested methods will work, and in a real situation I would just....”.

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2 minutes ago, High Exposure said:

What? That’s insanity!!!!

:rofl::rofl::rofl: 

People would have to slay some of their sacred cows and perform in front of others! Don’t be silly. Everyone knows that when we are born we are granted all the skills necessary to be a gunfighter. 

Miya much easier and cheaper to just say “I know what to do, my untested methods will work, and in a real situation I would just....”.

How about the ole sayin...

 

All I need is 1 round...

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5 minutes ago, Sniper22 said:

You make good points, but it's not based on mine or other people's home situations that we're discussing. You deal with events in the 'hood on your job, and in those situations, you're absolutley right. I wouldn't want to deal with those type of situations patrolling the 'hood every day like you do.

I'm referencing an unknown and uninvited intruder in my house. I'm going to err on the side of self preservation and protection, and not give the benefit of the doubt when protecting my family. Everyone is free to decide how they want to handle that situation.

Like it's been said, it's better to be judged by 12, then be carried by 6.

The bottom line, if an intruder comes in here at night, he's already broken a couple of laws, breaking and entering and attempted robbery, and that's for starters. Plus, to physically break in, knowing someone is home, either shows total stupidity or major intent to do harm.

Either way. I'm not planning on having a nice, casual sit down conversation with the dude at that point. He's there for a reason, I'm not waiting to see what it is. My response in that situation is to send him away in a big, black Hefty bag.

 

And be judged by a jury of his peers.. 

 

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11 minutes ago, Zeke said:

And be judged by a jury of his peers.. 

I hate the mentality of “Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6”.

Being judged by 12 implies I have done something wrong.

Why not just do it right? Why not stack the deck in your favor? Why not be prepared?

You have already taken the step of “I will have a gun and be able to use in in defense of what I love.” Why not take it a step further and say “I will set myself up for success in all conditions come-what-may.” 

That way you survive and you never have to be judged at all.

I dunno, it seems pretty simple to me.

It is like the shooter that spends $4k on a pistol but thinks $15 on a holster to carry it in is too much.

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1 hour ago, Zeke said:

 you’ll buy a generator, solar panels and batteries... in case the power goes out. But you won’t put a light on your HD gun. Btw, you can turn them on and off. Flawed logic. Better to have and not need, then need and not have

So, I'll quote the your complete post, to make you happy.

Think about that first part, I have a generator, solar and batteries and two other ways to produce electric. Does that sound like I decided on a single detail (generator only) or considered the big picture and more comprehensive plan and planned ahead?

It's the same thing I decided with a WL versus none. First, I hardened my house to make it difficult to break in. Second, I planned my night time lighting so I can see what's going on without any additional lighting, with HD as the reason. I need to have situational awareness and tactical advantage in low light. Since I know the layout of my house, either this intruder will be carrying his own light, will turn on a room light, or be stumbling around trying to figure out where to go.

Third, I've tried a WL and have walked through as many different "what if" scenarios I might encounter in my house, and tried to envision my responses. Have I actually had "real world" experience shooting an intruder? Not yet, and I hope to never have.

As H.E. has been going on and on above, In my situation, it's not about wondering what's in a guy's hand. That's a moot issue. At 2 or 3 AM in my house, a uninvited intruder who just broke in doesn't belong there. There no other discussion needed.

It's easy to determine if there's a person there or not the way my lighting is configured. I'm not taking the time to see if he's carrying a TV remote, a ham sandwich or a weapon. I don't need to light up his face to see if he's smiling or frowning. Any intruder that just broke into my house will be treated the same. To delay can mean the difference between serious physical injury to me or my wife.

 

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Sorry Highexposure, you don't know my house and it's layout, my wife and I do. I do not need a light on my weapon. I don't even need to use the sights to take care of business. It is a very small house, and if someone is on the 2nd floor of it AFTER my dogs went nuts barking, and I would assume the perp(s) either killed them, or gave them steaks to keep them busy, I am NOT worried about not seeing them in 100% daylight. They WILL BE DEAD! My brothers house, that's another story. I would want a light there, far too big to defend without WPL's.

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26 minutes ago, High Exposure said:

I hate the mentality of “Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6”.

Being judged by 12 implies I have done something wrong.

Why not just do it right? Why not stack the deck in your favor? Why not be prepared?

You have already taken the step of “I will have a gun and be able to use in in defense of what I love.” Why not take it a step further and say “I will set myself up for success in all conditions come-what-may.” 

That way you survive and you never have to be judged at all.

I dunno, it seems pretty simple to me.

It is like the shooter that spends $4k on a pistol but thinks $15 on a holster to carry it in is too much.

Me like 

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I have a coworker that lives in Point Pleasant (right on the corner of the north side of Route 35)... was a year or two back, but came downstairs to find a random guy sleeping on her couch. Woke him up, and made him get out.

A few hours later, she had a knock at the door. The guy came back to apologize. Was drinking the night before, and actually thought he was home, sleeping on his couch. She didn’t lock her door, which is more how she acted prior to this situation occurring (now she locks it every night... at least what she says). He lived just a block or two up.

Let’s say you take your thought process and apply it to that situation. You have a long day, and forget to lock the door... or are sick, and a family member is supposed to do it, and doesn’t. Whatever the reason, the stars aligned and the guy staggers into your house.

While a drunk walking into your house is not something most people expect, is that an imminent threat? Sorry, but you aren’t going to win that argument, even if you had Johnnie Cochran representing you. Your life (criminal charges), as well as your property (civil liability), are on the line there. Just because there is a shadowy figure in your home, doesn’t mean you are free to mow them down.


In Free States it does not matter. A man's home is his castle. Break in risk ending up dead.


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My opinion is that 300 lumens is sufficient for inside normal sized houses. The amount you spend and the resultant quality and reliability is entirely up to you. The OP wanted to discuss having a light vs not having a light.

 

Yes, with practice shooting a pistol while holding a flashlight can be learned and can be done well.

 

Can we also agree that holding your panicking kid behind you with one hand while using your handgun and flashlight with only the other hand is impossible?

 

Adopting more modern inventions and techniques that have been developed from real world experience makes sense. Just because something used to be done differently and worked, doesn't mean newer methods don't work better.

 

Sheriff's used to use Colt Peacemakers. They worked. Why use anything else?

 

In the unlikely event that I'm in a fight for my life I want to have as many advantages as possible to improve my chances. A WML makes it easier to see, manipulate things around me and possibly shoot all at the same time than a separate gun and flashlight.

 

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You may have missed part of my post. I do not own a handgun that a light could be mounted to. My only choice for light, other than ambient or turn turn the lights on, is to hold a flashlignt in my other hand. I've found the crosshanded or Harries Techinque to be the most comfortable. Both pistol and flashlight are secure and it gives extra stability vs shooting one handed.

 

 

As far as the light identifying you that is a real world concern. If it wasn't the FBI wouldn't have developed the FBI technique of holding the flashlight over your head. So that if someone shoots towards the light they are less likely to hit you.

 

 

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1 hour ago, High Exposure said:

I hate the mentality of “Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6”.

Being judged by 12 implies I have done something wrong.

Why not just do it right? Why not stack the deck in your favor? Why not be prepared?

I have zero concerns about being judged wrong. Zero. I have more concerns about being alive and not seriously beaten to defend myself. If you read the post I made right after yours, I have stacked the deck and am prepared.

1 hour ago, High Exposure said:

You have already taken the step of “I will have a gun and be able to use in in defense of what I love.” Why not take it a step further and say “I will set myself up for success in all conditions come-what-may.” 

Just because YOU consider my plan won't be a success, does a 300 Lumen WL change the conditions on the ground in a HD situation that I described? The answer is NO.

There's more to being planned and ready then just having a WL. Overall planning is a bigger part.

1 hour ago, High Exposure said:

That way you survive and you never have to be judged at all.

I plan on surviving and not being physically harmed. But, I don't need to "light up" and know the hair color or if a intruder is smiling or frowning, to determine if I'm going to protect us. The mere fact is that he made it that far into my house is justification.

 

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16 minutes ago, capt14k said:

 

 

You may have missed part of my post. I do not own a handgun that a light could be mounted to. My only choice for light, other than ambient or turn turn the lights on, is to hold a flashlignt in my other hand. I've found the crosshanded or Harries Techinque to be the most comfortable. Both pistol and flashlight are secure and it gives extra stability vs shooting one handed.

 

 

As far as the light identifying you that is a real world concern. If it wasn't the FBI wouldn't have developed the FBI technique of holding the flashlight over your head. So that if someone shoots towards the light they are less likely to hit you.

 

 

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I get it. I’m glad you recognize the need for a light and have developed a technique to use that you are comfortable with.

As for the FBI technique where you hold the light away from your body - that is a technique for searching, it is not a technique for gunfighting. It is used to get light behind objects and probe shadows while using cover or concealment. Yes, in a pinch you can shoot from it, but it is not developed as a fighting stance.

In addition to knowing how, you need to know why and when to use certain techniques.

That’s the difference between knowledge and wisdom.

Yes, being shot it as always a concern. Regardless of the lighting conditions. As is hitting what you are aiming at.

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I get it. I’m glad you recognize the need for a light and have developed a technique to use that you are comfortable with.
As for the FBI technique where you hold the light away from your body - that is a technique for searching, it is not a technique for gunfighting. It is used to get light behind objects and probe shadows while using cover or concealment. Yes, in a pinch you can shoot from it, but it is not developed as a fighting stance.
In addition to knowing how, you need to know why and when to use certain techniques.
That’s the difference between knowledge and wisdom.
Yes, being shot it as always a concern. Regardless of the lighting conditions. As is hitting what you are aiming at.
Being completely honest my realization for my need for light is also because my night vision has gone to shit when driving so I am guessing it wouldn't be great even with ambient light.


As for the FBI technique, which wouldn't work great for me anyways due to tears in my shoulder, yes it is for searching but isn't that what you are doing when you hear someone break into your house? Is it not for searching and firing while hopefully not getting shot. If we know exactly where the intruder is it would make things a lot easier, but that could also make a case for the element of surprise and no light being best.

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Anyone with experience on the Streamlight TLR 7?  The model 1 sticks way out past the muzzle. 
I dont but it looks pretty good. 500 lumens isnt bad and the price is right. I dont have an issue with my 1hl extending past the muzzle. As some one earlier said you can chapstick the lens and clean the light quick and easy. You still benefit from the extra lumens

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40 minutes ago, capt14k said:

In Free States it does not matter. A man's home is his castle. Break in risk ending up dead.

I'm going to outline and describe what I see are the steps that happen in a HD situation in my case, not for the "experts" here, but for any lurker reading at home. This might help some people understand.

1) If an potential intruder approaches my house, the first thing he'll see are our cars in the driveway, as we don't park in the garage, so he should know someone could be home.

2) I have motion activated lights surround my house, so one of them will turn on when he approaches. That's the first deterrent.

3) If he has any awareness, he should notice the multiple video security cameras that surround my house when the lights come on. Deterrent number 2.

4) If he still decides to approach, he's going to encounter dead bolted doors and locked windows, so to accomplish entry, he's going to have to destroy something and force his way in. Deterrent number 3 (First law broken).

5) If he gains entry through a window or door, the audible alarm will go off. Deterrent number 4.

6) When he actually enters, he'll be met by my barking dog, so either he might leave or force his way pass the dog. If he decides to harm the dog, that's the (second law broken).

6) At that point, I'll be waken up by the noise, and will be heading towards the point of entry/noise with my HD gun. Maybe at that point the intruder decides to change his plan. Deterrent number 5.

7) If the intruder is still intent, after all the above, in either robbery or a physical attack (third or fourth law broken), he will be met with deadly force. I don't need a WL at that point to have a daylight face to face with him. I only need to see where he is, and respond accordingly.

I seriously doubt a jury would consider me guilty of manslaughter in that situation.

25 minutes ago, High Exposure said:

Yes, being shot it as always a concern. Regardless of the lighting conditions. As is hitting what you are aiming at.

and that's why I went with a laser instead of a WL. I want to make sure I hit what I'm aiming at.

Hope that clears things up in my situation for all of you.

 

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How does a laser tell you what you are hitting under low light/no light conditions?

The only way to know what you are hitting is to see what you are hitting by tracking your sights.

In the dark, a laser tells you where your muzzle is pointed before you press the trigger. Nothing more. Nothing less. 

It does not aid in selecting a target location, it does not reveal your targets reaction to being shot and hit, or shot and missed. 

A laser also points both ways and reveals your position, the same as a white light does. However, unlike a bright focused white light, it does not create a glare that your intended target has to squint to see past or cause discomfort or natural reaction to turn your head, close your eyes, or block the light with your hand.

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I have 4 lights spread about the house and 1 in each vehicle. I alao have a light on my HD Glock .50GI.

BTW, throw away those stupid lasers. They'll get you killed.

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Lots of nonsense in here but just want to throw out some personal evidence to support wml.

At a recent mandatory force on force training I was armed with a sim rifle that was identical to my issued gun in every way save for wml placement. I was rapidly approached by an unknown person in a well lit warehouse full of overhead fluorescent lights. Despite that fact, the unknown was mostly backlit and I was unable to determine what, if anything, was in his hands. In fact, I truly believed he was holding a handgun and delivered a few well-placed rounds, at which time he fell to the ground and I saw that he was unarmed. 

On another note, I have spent probably hours with my gun drawn inside stranger's homes with only a few years of experience as a LEO. This is a common occurrence and I'd hope that you guys who decry the use of a wml are not comfortable ending a young cop's life over your stubborn misconception that you don't need a wml. 

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Lots of nonsense in here but just want to throw out some personal evidence to support wml.
At a recent mandatory force on force training I was armed with a sim rifle that was identical to my issued gun in every way save for wml placement. I was rapidly approached by an unknown person in a well lit warehouse full of overhead fluorescent lights. Despite that fact, the unknown was mostly backlit and I was unable to determine what, if anything, was in his hands. In fact, I truly believed he was holding a handgun and delivered a few well-placed rounds, at which time he fell to the ground and I saw that he was unarmed. 
On another note, I have spent probably hours with my gun drawn inside stranger's homes with only a few years of experience as a LEO. This is a common occurrence and I'd hope that you guys who decry the use of a wml are not comfortable ending a young cop's life over your stubborn misconception that you don't need a wml. 
One question why are you inside someone's home unannounced unless executing a no knock warrant?

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2 minutes ago, capt14k said:

One question why are you inside someone's home unannounced unless executing a no knock warrant?

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Every open or unsecured door is treated as a potential burglary. Other factors in the exact incident determine how loud or quiet we are. 

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Every open or unsecured door is treated as a potential burglary. Other factors in the exact incident determine how loud or quiet we are. 
Open door without a screen door I hope? I would be pretty pissed if cops entered my house if I had my interior front door open to allow cross ventilation. I also assume this was not in an upper middle class town?

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