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I DON'T NEED LIGHTS FOR MY FIREARMS: CHANGE MY MIND

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1 hour ago, High Exposure said:

1) Acquire a target - Is there someone standing in my kitchen or is that a something my wife left on the counter?

2) Identify if the target is Friend or Foe - Is that my son who snuck downstairs for a snack? Or is that an intruder?

3) Discriminate the target for the appropriateness of deadly force - OK. That’s not my son, and I don’t recognize him. Is he holding a can of soda, or a gun? 

Now these are good points, and situations like this will vary from house to house. Who else lives there? Who might be coming in late? How aware or groggy is someone in the middle of the night if woken suddenly?

I think these type of scenarios will have to be decided on a case by case basis, and plans designed accordingly. Plus, has the person actually done a nighttime drill to understand and know their surroundings in the dark. Then plan accordingly with situational awareness.

In my case, there's two of us in the house and the dog. If I wake up in the middle of the night and hear something, if she's in bed next to me, then it's an intruder. I know the sound the dog makes. I have enough ambient light and night lights that I can see if it's a person, I don't need to illuminate them in 300 watts of light.

 

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Now these are good points, and situations like this will vary from house to house. Who else lives there? Who might be coming in late? How aware or groggy is someone in the middle of the night if woken suddenly?
I think these type of scenarios will have to be decided on a case by case basis, and plans designed accordingly. Plus, has the person actually done a nighttime drill to understand and know their surroundings in the dark. Then plan accordingly with situational awareness.
In my case, there's two of us in the house and the dog. If I wake up in the middle of the night and hear something, if she's in bed next to me, then it's an intruder. I know the sound the dog makes. I have enough ambient light and night lights that I can see if it's a person, I don't need to illuminate them in 300 watts of light.
 


Another reason I don't need a $100-250 light. I can walk throughout my house without turning a light on due to the ambient light.


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10 minutes ago, Sniper22 said:

Now these are good points, and situations like this will vary from house to house. Who else lives there? Who might be coming in late? How aware or groggy is someone in the middle of the night if woken suddenly?

I think these type of scenarios will have to be decided on a case by case basis, and plans designed accordingly. Plus, has the person actually done a nighttime drill to understand and know their surroundings in the dark. Then plan accordingly with situational awareness.

In my case, there's two of us in the house and the dog. If I wake up in the middle of the night and hear something, if she's in bed next to me, then it's an intruder. I know the sound the dog makes. I have enough ambient light and night lights that I can see if it's a person, I don't need to illuminate them in 300 watts of light.

 

I spend a lot of my time in the dark. I spend an unusually large amount of time pointing guns at people in the dark. Believe we when I tell you -or not, it’s your life: If you are going to use a gun for HD/SD it needs a light on it.

We are visual creatures.

We can make correct decisions faster if we can see.

Stress affects us less when we can see.

Our bodies are actually stronger when we can see.

Hell, I have been in situations in daylight conditions where I needed a weaponlight to see past glare and actually see what someone was holding - Bright light makes dark shadows - the suspects body was casting its own shadow from daylight streaming through a window behind him and his hands were in his waistband, in conpleted darkness. I needed my weaponlight to see what he was holding. 

Ambient light is great for making nice sillouhettes. Not so much for identifying objects held in hands or tucked in their pants.

But hey, what do I know. You do you. Just know, you could do better.

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I apologize if my earlier post seemed a bit arrogant. It was not meant that way. 100 bucks is a 100 bucks. I pay a mortgage and have 2 kids and 4 dogs. I have to budget as much as anyone but if i have to take that $25 I had for a light and put away another $25 for the next couple months then its worth buying something quality.

 

Theres a difference between inexpensive and cheap.

 

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I apologize if my earlier post seemed a bit arrogant. It was not meant that way. 100 bucks is a 100 bucks. I pay a mortgage and have 2 kids and 4 dogs. I havr to budget as much as anyombe but if i have to take that $25 I had for a light and put away another $25 for the next couple mounts then its worth buying something quality.

 

Theres a difference between inexpensive and cheap.

 

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Like I said I have fired my AR with the light on and it works fine. Many on AR-15.com recommend similar setup and many recommend spending $400 on a light. For the amount I use it I am fine with the cheap light. For a handgun flashlight in hand. It worked for years for those who used them a lot more than I ever plan on having to.

 

Edit: Shotgun cheap light would not work. AR-15 doesn't have enough recoil to bother cheap LED.

 

 

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17 minutes ago, High Exposure said:

I spend a lot of my time in the dark. I spend an unusually large amount of time pointing guns at people in the dark. Believe we when I tell you -or not, it’s your life: If you are going to use a gun for HD/SD it needs a light on it.

We are visual creatures.

We can make correct decisions faster if we can see.

I agree with you, but your situation is a little bit different, because it's your job, and out on the streets, it's a whole different scenario. So yes, you need to be 100% sure of your target and what's going on.

At 2:00 AM, if there's a body coming down my hallway in my house, and my wife is still in the bed, I can be pretty sure it's not the pizza delivery man or the UPS guy delivering more ammo.

In that situation, I know what decision I have to make.

Actually, if the guy makes it that far down the hallway and the dog didn't alert me before that point, poochie is going to have a lot of explaining to do..

 

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I agree with you, but your situation is a little bit different, because it's your job, and out on the streets, it's a whole different scenario. So yes, you need to be 100% sure of your target and what's going on.
At 2:00 AM, if there's a body coming down my hallway in my house, and my wife is still in the bed, I can be pretty sure it's not the pizza delivery man or the UPS guy delivering more ammo.
In that situation, I know what decision I have to make.
 
 
Thats not a very bright (ha pun) decision. Just having someone in your house does not necessarily give you the right to end their life. Good luck shooting some unarmed 16 year old and spending many years in prison.

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6 minutes ago, capt14k said:

 


If you had Milsurps how would you attach it? Duct Tape?


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I only have purpose built firearms so that stuff has never really interested me.. but if I did..they have wood handgaurds.. I am sure I could cut a mount out of some metal and mount it.. 

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3 minutes ago, checko said:

 Just having someone in your house does not necessarily give you the right to end their life. Good luck shooting some unarmed 16 year old and spending many years in prison.

 

Do you regularly have unknown 16 year old kids wandering around the inside of your house at 2 AM?

 

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I only have purpose built firearms so that stuff has never really interested me.. but if I did..they have wood handgaurds.. I am sure I could cut a mount out of some metal and mount it.. 
And destroy a piece of history. Best you stay uninterested in them.

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Maybe he doesnt have milsurps. I dont.

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Sorry to hear that.

Part of my point was they didn't have fancy weapons lights years ago and got along just fine.

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Like I said I have fired my AR with the light on and it works fine. Many on AR-15.com recommend similar setup and many recommend spending $400 on a light. For the amount I use it I am fine with the cheap light. For a handgun flashlight in hand. It worked for years for those who used them a lot more than I ever plan on having to.
 
Edit: Shotgun cheap light would not work. AR-15 doesn't have enough recoil to bother cheap LED.
 
 
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I doubt they would suggest something that much. I could buy a 1000 lumen surefire and nount it for under 200. Do what you gotta do bud but its definitely not the best or most effecient way.





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6 minutes ago, Sniper22 said:

I agree with you, but your situation is a little bit different, because it's your job, and out on the streets, it's a whole different scenario. So yes, you need to be 100% sure of your target and what's going on.

At 2:00 AM, if there's a body coming down my hallway in my house, and my wife is still in the bed, I can be pretty sure it's not the pizza delivery man or the UPS guy delivering more ammo.

In that situation, I know what decision I have to make.

Actually, if the guy makes it that far down the hallway and the dog didn't alert me before that point, poochie is going to have a lot of explaining to do..

 

If you are going to use deadly force it doesn't matter what job you have. You have to show that there was reason to shoot the shape you saw. Not being supposed to be there is not the same as being an imminent threat to you or anybody else.

You will be interrogated. If you cannot describe what you saw that would give a reasonable person cause to believe that there was an imminent threat of death or grievous harm to yourself or another, you are going to have a hard time staying out of jail.

 

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2 minutes ago, capt14k said:

And destroy a piece of history. Best you stay uninterested in them.

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Sorry to hear that.

Part of my point was they didn't have fancy weapons lights years ago and got along just fine.

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they also didn't have cars at one point... and put lead in paint.. doesn't necessarily mean its a good idea.. 

 

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Do you regularly have unknown 16 year old kids wandering around the inside of your house at 2 AM?
 
No. But if you just start squeezing off rounds in the dark at 2am you have no idea who or what youre shooting at.

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13 minutes ago, Sniper22 said:

I agree with you, but your situation is a little bit different, because it's your job, and out on the streets, it's a whole different scenario. So yes, you need to be 100% sure of your target and what's going on.

At 2:00 AM, if there's a body coming down my hallway in my house, and my wife is still in the bed, I can be pretty sure it's not the pizza delivery man or the UPS guy delivering more ammo.

In that situation, I know what decision I have to make.

 

 

Ok. So say you shoot at a stranger in your house - who may, or may not, deserve to have been shot, but you don’t know because you don’t need a weaponlight.

Now what? How do you check the effectiveness of your work? What if the guy beats feet, what kind of description do you have? 

Say your target quickly disappears from view immediately following your shot.

Did you hit them or miss? Did they trip in surprise, fall down from being shot, or dive for cover? Are they orienting themselves to bring a weapon to bear on you? 

You are making a lot of assumptions on how well you will perform in the worst moment of your life and a lot of assumptions of how impressed your target will be with your gunhandling skills. 

The light is necessary after your engagement as well. You need to track your threat. Decide if you need to shoot again. Get a description to tell authorities.

It is flat irresponsible to use a firearm for self defense without a way to identify shoot from no shoot.  Proper use of white light is the most effective way to do that.

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If you are going to use deadly force it doesn't matter what job you have. You have to show that there was reason to shoot the shape you saw. Not being supposed to be there is not the same as being an imminent threat to you or anybody else.
You will be interrogated. If you cannot describe what you saw that would give a reasonable person cause to believe that there was an imminent threat of death or grievous harm to yourself or another, you are going to have a hard time staying out of jail.
 
In this Communist State yes. In free States no. Counting down the days to freedom.

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Sorry to hear that.

Part of my point was they didn't have fancy weapons lights years ago and got along just fine.

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Just cause somethings old doesnt make it important.

Humans lived for thousands of years without electricity but is sure makes shit easier doesnt it.

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Of course they do. Otherwise they wouldn't sell them. The average person does not need them. Flashlight will do the same job.

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Does the same job just not as well.

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My first weapon light was an Insight M3... years back (2009ish). Converted it to LED when they offered it, and I think I also bought a M3X (LED from factory) prior to any other light (exception possibly being Insight’s compact light... like TLR-3 sized; forget the name). Got into TLR-1s, and also picked up an X-300. Sold the Surefire, as I preferred the toggle setup on my Insights and Streamlights.

Probably in the ballpark of 12 or so lights... which includes other designs over railed pistol lights (Scout setup on my Tavor, LaserMax on my J-frame, TLR-6 on my P938). New favorite is the TLR-7 on my Glock 30S... even though it has a different switch setup.

In regards to need, same can be argued like that red dot thread. I don’t need an Aimpoint, just like I don’t need a TLR-1... but I have both because I don’t plan on either failing anytime soon. $15 lights may very well work... but I really don’t have the need to try them. I have two Surefire handheld lights within 5’ of me right this moment, and I know either will work if I grabbed one right this second. That is what that $100+ bought me. I’ve done the cheap light game years ago, whether one I leave in my trunk for emergencies or one I use at work. $15 to $30 lights don’t hold up for the long term... and I don’t abuse my stuff.

I think the cheapest light on any of my firearms is a Surefire 6PX Pro on my main AR (believe it is that... they did something with the model numbers between the time I bought it an now, so forget which one). Not the current 600 Lumen model, but the older 200ish version (with the low 15 Lumen mode). IWC mount puts it right next to the gas block for the AA piston... so it gets a crap ton of carbon on it. Think that is going on 9 years of use. 100%, with the only issue being batteries on their way out only allow the low mode, so if I don’t get high, it is time to change.

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Just cause somethings old doesnt make it important.

 

Humans lived for thousands of years without electricity but is sure makes shit easier doesnt it.

 

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Well they got along with flashlights in the modern era.

 

 

On an AR-15 what makes a $10 LED vs $100 Weapons Light vs $400 weapon light any different?

 

 

Instead of $10 LED how about a $25 Made in U.S.A. flashlight?

 

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