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I DON'T NEED LIGHTS FOR MY FIREARMS: CHANGE MY MIND

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1 hour ago, capt14k said:

So yes historic events are much more interesting than hypothetical scenarios that 99% will never experience.

After reading this thread, I think some need to stop watching Bruce Willis movies and focus on reality.

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@capt14k

I think he was “conceding” to my point.

“Police and military did it for years.”

Did being the operative word.

Technology and innovation exist to make our lives easier. The ability to add a light directly to your weapon gives you the ability to stop training a skill that drained resources such as ammo and training time (of they gave you any at all) that can be dedicated to better use.

Would you rather have 1 hour and 100 rounds to train two skills, each to mediocrity? Or would you prefer to train 1 skill to competence? It’s all a compromise. 

Also, I like Milsurp too. I think they are excellent example of living history. Anyway, I was just making a joke that we can all really get into the weeds regarding esoteric minutia when we are discussing something we are passionate about. I am not as knowledgeable as you are in the field by a long shot, and if I had a question, you are one of the first people I would ask. 

I, and @blksheep, and @GRIZ, and few others here whose screen names escape me right now, are knowledgeable about what it takes to train gunfighters. That is what we know and are passionate about. We are not making this shit up. We do it for real, we study it, we learn from some of the best in the world on the topic and utilize the TTPs we preach in the real world. It doesn’t matter if you are military, police, armed citizen, or a scared mother/father wanting to protect their family and castle - When you are in a situation where you need to have a gun in your hand, even once, you had better be a gunfighter.

This seems like a ridiculous back and forth. The advantages of a weaponlight are self evident and overwhelming. They are affordable and there are many options. Arguing to not have one (on a gun that will easily accept one) is silly at best for closed minded reasons. 

You say 99% of us will never experience such a  scenario.

Hell, 99% of the people in this thread will never need a gun to protect or defend themselves. But they have them - as they should.

If you look at most self defense gun uses and then look at attacks that would warrant the use of a gun in self defense, the majority happen in diminished light conditions where a white light, most especially a weapon light, would be indicated.

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HE I am not questioning your need for them or that they are better. However for most on here they don't need a weapon light on every firearm. Like I said my ridiculous look AR-15 that was done more as a joke than anything else has a cheap flashlight on it. For the record I don't own any handguns that would accept a light. My newest handguns are a Beretta 96 that is at least 20 years old and a Ruger Service Six. After that they are all WWII or earlier.

 

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1 minute ago, capt14k said:

HE I am not questioning your need for them or that they are better. However for most on here they don't need a weapon light on every firearm. 

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
 

I agree. And as I said earlier, if you don’t intend on using a gun for social purposes, than you don’t need one. /thread.

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So we can agree my 300 Lumen Cheap LED Flashlight attached to an AR is enough light for indoors. Can we not also agree with practice shooting with a flashlight in one hand works for a pistol? Police and military did it for years so it must.


My opinion is that 300 lumens is sufficient for inside normal sized houses. The amount you spend and the resultant quality and reliability is entirely up to you. The OP wanted to discuss having a light vs not having a light.

Yes, with practice shooting a pistol while holding a flashlight can be learned and can be done well.

Can we also agree that holding your panicking kid behind you with one hand while using your handgun and flashlight with only the other hand is impossible?

Adopting more modern inventions and techniques that have been developed from real world experience makes sense. Just because something used to be done differently and worked, doesn't mean newer methods don't work better.

Sheriff's used to use Colt Peacemakers. They worked. Why use anything else?

In the unlikely event that I'm in a fight for my life I want to have as many advantages as possible to improve my chances. A WML makes it easier to see, manipulate things around me and possibly shoot all at the same time than a separate gun and flashlight.

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So, during a Home Invasion scenario, you want the perp(s) to know EXACTLY where you are because you have a nice bright light shining while walking around your house?

I have plenty of ambient lighting throughout my house because of where I live. During Sandy, that was another story, NO ambient lighting for two weeks. That is the only time I would have been worried about not being able to see an intruder and what they may be carrying.

I have two dogs, if a perp(s) gets past them, they won't like what hits them next. They are my first line of defense. My neighbors can hear them barking inside my house when they don't recognize something, whether by sight or by sound.

My house is so small that I do not need a light so see my way around. No one knows your house better than you do. Having no kids at home, I am not worried about shooting someone be accident on my second floor where the bedrooms are located.

So you all can continue to argue whether you need a light mounted to your guns. Every situation is different. This is NJ where we have to retreat by law, correct? I can't go outside with my loaded weapon to chase a perp since the threat is over, so again, why do I need a WPL?

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10 hours ago, Mr.Stu said:

If you are going to use deadly force it doesn't matter what job you have. You have to show that there was reason to shoot the shape you saw. Not being supposed to be there is not the same as being an imminent threat to you or anybody else.

If someone is wandering around inside my house at 2 or 3 AM, I can guarantee they aren't there for a Birthday Party. First, they had to break in to gain access, so that is the first point of being an imminent threat.

What would you suggest I do? Go ask the tweaker to sit down, put on a pot of coffee and have him tell me all his inspirations why he broke into my house and explain all his motivations why he came in uninvited?

Then ask him if he has any weapons on him and what he's carrying in his pockets to see if he planned on causing any harm to us?

Sure, that sounds like a great plan, right up to the point he beats us up and robs us.

10 hours ago, checko said:

No. But if you just start squeezing off rounds in the dark at 2am you have no idea who or what youre shooting at.

First off, I already said, between ambient lighting and strategically placed night lights, I can see fine at night and can readily determine what I would be shooting at. I've run through different scenarios at night, so I have a pretty good idea what I'll encounter in different areas of the house. I've practiced and moved around and tried different cover positions. To insinuate that I'd be stumbling around and shooting haphazardly at boogiemen isn't accurate. I subscribe to the Boy Scout motto, "Be Prepared".

With that said, I hope I NEVER have to encounter a situation like that in my lifetime, and that was a BIG decision I had to make when purchasing weapons for HD. Could I pull the trigger in self-defense?

 

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10 minutes ago, M4BGRINGO said:

So, during a Home Invasion scenario, you want the perp(s) to know EXACTLY where you are because you have a nice bright light shining while walking around your house?

Great point!! I prefer the element of surprise.

11 minutes ago, M4BGRINGO said:

I have plenty of ambient lighting throughout my house because of where I live.

Being able to see in low light is an advantage, and the probability is, you'll be getting up from sleeping, where your eyes were closed, so the ambient lighting is almost like being in daylight.

12 minutes ago, M4BGRINGO said:

I have two dogs, if a perp(s) gets past them, they won't like what hits them next. They are my first line of defense.

Another great point, if an intruder tries to get past dogs, you know he has evil intent. There is no delay or discussion needed at that point.

14 minutes ago, M4BGRINGO said:

My house is so small that I do not need a light so see my way around. No one knows your house better than you do.

Another good one. People should be able to move around your house with your eyes closed and know exactly where everything is. Why would someone give up that tactical advantage by heading down the hallway with a spotlight blinding the way?

16 minutes ago, M4BGRINGO said:

So you all can continue to argue whether you need a light mounted to your guns. Every situation is different.

That's the last good point. Every situation is different, and people need to decide what works best in THEIR situation. It's NOT "a one size fits all" solution.

 

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If someone is wandering around inside my house at 2 or 3 AM, I can guarantee they aren't there for a Birthday Party. First, they had to break in to gain access, so that is the first point of being an imminent threat.


I have a coworker that lives in Point Pleasant (right on the corner of the north side of Route 35)... was a year or two back, but came downstairs to find a random guy sleeping on her couch. Woke him up, and made him get out.

A few hours later, she had a knock at the door. The guy came back to apologize. Was drinking the night before, and actually thought he was home, sleeping on his couch. She didn’t lock her door, which is more how she acted prior to this situation occurring (now she locks it every night... at least what she says). He lived just a block or two up.

Let’s say you take your thought process and apply it to that situation. You have a long day, and forget to lock the door... or are sick, and a family member is supposed to do it, and doesn’t. Whatever the reason, the stars aligned and the guy staggers into your house.

While a drunk walking into your house is not something most people expect, is that an imminent threat? Sorry, but you aren’t going to win that argument, even if you had Johnnie Cochran representing you. Your life (criminal charges), as well as your property (civil liability), are on the line there. Just because there is a shadowy figure in your home, doesn’t mean you are free to mow them down.
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1 hour ago, M4BGRINGO said:

So, during a Home Invasion scenario, you want the perp(s) to know EXACTLY where you are because you have a nice bright light shining while walking around your house?

This is the lamest excuse for not having a WML and the one I hear the most often.

Let me ask you this, if you have to point a gun at someone in daylight conditions, can they not can see exactly where you are? Just like turning on a light on your gun in low light? Or do you wear a cloak of invisibility when the sun is up and/or the lights are on?

You still need to use the same tactics you would under normal daylight conditions.

Use cover and concealment to your advantage at night with a WML just like you would during the day. Fight from a position of advantage whenever possible.

If the light will be a disadvantage, don’t use it until you have changed your position and made it an advantage.

If you don’t have a choice and have to fight where you stand, you will get better hits and get them faster (thus ending the fight sooner) with a light to assist your aim and discriminate your hits than you will in total darkness using 3 glowing green dots or a laser.

Hardware can’t fix a software solution. If you have bad TTPs, no new whiz bang equipment can fix it.

Again, ambient light can be great for seeing a sillouette of something. Terrible for discriminating objects in people’s hends or waistbands. The human brain is a tricky thing. You will see what you expect to see, even if it isn’t there, if you can’t see clearly.

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Ambient light, during daytime hours, with daylight outside conditions.

Which picture is he holding the SIRT training pistol, and in which photo is he holding a TV remote.

How fast can you discern which is which? How fast can you then decide what to do next?

ieweU6I.jpg

duvgSoK.jpg

Note: These pictures were edited only for PERSEC and DOGSEC reasons. I did not mess with lighting or colors. Pay no attention to mess on the left side of the photo. I’m in the middle of cleaning out my sons desk in preparation of the new school year.

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[mention=9309]Sniper22[/mention] you’ll buy a generator, solar panels and batteries... in case the power goes out. But you won’t put a light on your HD gun. Btw, you can turn them on and off. Flawed logic. Better to have and not need, then need and not have
Seems like a justification to not spend money. If it was any other gun than a HD gun it is totally optional.

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You don't want to use a light on your weapon?  Fine, don't.  But, the old saying applies here, it's better to have it and not need than to need it and not have it.

You want to use a 15 dollar light to save a few bucks?  Fine, it's your money.  But I don't buy dollar store tools to work as an electrician.  Sure, they may work initially.  But when they break or you get hurt using them, you'll be heading to Lowe's or Home Depot pretty quick. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, High Exposure said:

Which picture is he holding the SIRT training pistol, and in which photo is he holding a TV remote.

I have zero concerns with a 10 year old in the middle of the day carrying a weapon. My reference was to a tweaker forcing himself into my house in the middle of the night. This is a straw man argument.

1 hour ago, Screwball said:

While a drunk walking into your house is not something most people expect, is that an imminent threat?

 

1 hour ago, Screwball said:

She didn’t lock her door,

You can play "what if" until the cows come home. First, my doors are ALWAYS dead bolted at night, I make sure of it and I'm always the last one to bed. So, this situation will never happen in my house. It's MY responsibility to make sure my family is safe. PERIOD.

 

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7 minutes ago, Sniper22 said:

I have zero concerns with a 10 year old in the middle of the day carrying a weapon. My reference was to a tweaker forcing himself into my house in the middle of the night. This is a straw man argument.

That wasn’t a demonstration of what a 10 year old can do. :facepalm: I can’t believe I have to explain that.....

It was a demonstration of ambient lighting conditions that prevent a defender from seeing important detail that helps them make life saving decisions.

It is daylight. In a home with lights on, and I still can’t see what someone is holding on their hands. You would think it is impossible.

All decisions are made using Boyd’s Cycle or the O.O.D.A. Loop,

O.O.D.A. - observe, orient, decide, act.

Observe is the first - and for cause. If you don’t observe, and observe correctly, you can’t advance to the next step - orient. That means the bad guys reaction can now beat your action. If he can get to decide before you, you are now behind the power curve, and playing catch up. Bad place to be in a deadly confrontation.

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Here's how I see it...because I'm a logical person, I will generally acknowledge and defer to another's expertise. I might ask clarifying - or even challenging - questions so that I understand their rationale, but ultimately I will always defer if I feel he/she is both smart and better-informed than me on the subject matter. 

  • When I have questions on precision shooting, I PM my "forum buddy" @10X
  • If I wanted to buy some old military guns, I wouldn't hesitate to direct my questions to @capt14k
  • If I'm ever ready to try IDPA, you can bet I'd PM @Pizza Bob or @Mr.Stu
  • And if I wanted to know what equipment was needed for an actual gunfight situation, I'd ask  @High Exposure, @GRIZ etc. - because their careers provided that expertise - and I know them both and can attest that they're both intelligent people. 

So, when someone who trains gunfighters for a living says "get a flashlight for your HD gun" and provides a compelling argument (with photos no less!)... I'm going to get a flashlight for my HD gun. The rest of you can do as you see fit. It's a free country (for the moment, anyway).

And, and... on another point! Why is this hobby so damn expensive? Now I've just added a flashlight to my continually growing "things to buy" list! Dammit:angry: Guns, ammo, range fees, accessories... why, a girl could go broke! This is a very obsessive hobby I'm finding... it's like an addiction. Just the other day, I landed a small project and my first thoughts were: oh, good... I need to buy another case of 22.  :facepalm: 

And... great thread, Glen!

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1 hour ago, Zeke said:

But you won’t put a light on your HD gun. Btw, you can turn them on and off. Flawed logic. Better to have and not need, then need and not have

I already posted that I put a lasers on my HD weapons, based on choice, I feel that's a better option for my situation. I have no problem seeing at night, based on my lighting situation, but I want to know I'm on target, even if I can't get up over the sights. With a laser, I can fire from any position if I know where the dot is located.

1 hour ago, checko said:

Seems like a justification to not spend money. If it was any other gun than a HD gun it is totally optional.

Money has zero reasons to do with it, I can afford to buy any weapon or tool that I want. Money is no object. I actually have tried a WL on one of my HD, and didn't like it.

 

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6 minutes ago, Mrs. Peel said:

Here's how I see it...because I'm a logical person, I will generally acknowledge and defer to another's expertise. I might ask clarifying - or even challenging - questions so that I understand their rationale, but ultimately I will always defer if I feel he/she is both smart and better-informed than me on the subject matter. 

  • When I have questions on precision shooting, I PM my "forum buddy" @10X
  • If I wanted to buy some old military guns, I wouldn't hesitate to direct my questions to @capt14k
  • If I'm ever ready to try IDPA, you can bet I'd PM @Pizza Bob or @Mr.Stu
  • And if I wanted to know what equipment was needed for an actual gunfight situation, I'd ask  @High Exposure, @GRIZ etc. - because their careers provided that expertise - and I know them both and can attest that they're both intelligent people. 

So, when someone who trains gunfighters for a living says "get a flashlight for your HD gun" and provides a compelling argument (with photos no less!)... I'm going to get a flashlight for my HD gun. The rest of you can do as you see fit. It's a free country (for the moment, anyway).

And, and... on another point! Why is this hobby so damn expensive? Now I've just added a flashlight to my continually growing "things to buy" list! Dammit:angry: Guns, ammo, range fees, accessories... why, a girl could go broke! This is a very obsessive hobby I'm finding... it's like an addiction. Just the other day, I landed a small project and my first thoughts were: oh, good... I need to buy another case of 22.  :facepalm: 

And... great thread, Glen!

You forgot @ Blksheep.. but it’s like pulling megladon teef geeting him to a meet up 

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Just now, Zeke said:

You forgot @ Blksheep.. but it’s like megladon teef geeting him to a meet up 

There's a good number of people with expertise on here - I just happened to toss out a few names that came to mind! 

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FYI - If I had a bed side home defense firearm it would have a light.  

I would rather have the option to use it or not use it than not have that option.

Somethimg.to also consider for the "I don't need it side". If you don't have a light  and God forbid do have shoot someone you will have zero defense upon being questioned about if you were 100% certain about what / who you were shooting.  If you do have it and are in that  scenario only you will know if your light was on or off.  Having the light gives you more options in the before, during and after timeline.  It gives you more control over the totality of all possible scenarios.

Very interesting input from all involved.

 

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7 minutes ago, Sniper22 said:

I already posted that I put a lasers on my HD weapons, based on choice, I feel that's a better option for my situation. I have no problem seeing at night, based on my lighting situation, but I want to know I'm on target, even if I can't get up over the sights. With a laser, I can fire from any position if I know where the dot is located.

Money has zero reasons to do with it, I can afford to buy any weapon or tool that I want. Money is no object. I actually have tried a WL on one of my HD, and didn't like it.

 

@Sniper22 quote me in full context...  you going Harris on us

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3 minutes ago, High Exposure said:

It was a demonstration of ambient lighting conditions that prevent a defender from seeing important detail that helps them make life saving decisions.

It is daylight. In a home with lights on, and I still can’t see what someone is holding on their hands. You would think it is impossible.

You make good points, but it's not based on mine or other people's home situations that we're discussing. You deal with events in the 'hood on your job, and in those situations, you're absolutley right. I wouldn't want to deal with those type of situations patrolling the 'hood every day like you do.

I'm referencing an unknown and uninvited intruder in my house. I'm going to err on the side of self preservation and protection, and not give the benefit of the doubt when protecting my family. Everyone is free to decide how they want to handle that situation.

Like it's been said, it's better to be judged by 12, then be carried by 6.

The bottom line, if an intruder comes in here at night, he's already broken a couple of laws, breaking and entering and attempted robbery, and that's for starters. Plus, to physically break in, knowing someone is home, either shows total stupidity or major intent to do harm.

Either way. I'm not planning on having a nice, casual sit down conversation with the dude at that point. He's there for a reason, I'm not waiting to see what it is. My response in that situation is to send him away in a big, black Hefty bag.

 

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