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flatfish

Gun Ownership question

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A year ago I inherited my father's house along with all its contents.
To make a long story short, some of the contents are about 40 rifles and shotguns. Among these are also a few shotguns which belonged to my uncle, who lived in Iowa but has been gone now for about 5 years. He hunted here in NJ back in the 60's and 70's so he kept his shotguns here. The majority of the shotguns are single shot break action guns, there is only a couple old semiautomatics, one being an old M1 Garand, the other a vintage Remington Woodsmaster rifle. Most are in like new condition, a few are pretty rough but those are really old.

My question is do I need to do anything to keep these? I keep getting told that its illegal in NJ to posses a firearm without a firearms ID card and proof of ownership. I have no proof of ownership, in fact, I didn't even know they were here till I started going through old chests in the attic last week. I have no idea where they were bought. I suppose that most were my uncles, but he hadn't hunted here since the early 80's. A few I believe were my grandfather's, who passed away in the 60's.  I likely won't ever hunt with any of them but I certainly wouldn't want to lose them. All are wood stocked hunting type guns. I am thinking that my father packed them away to hide them from my mother who hated guns. All are long guns, no handguns.

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14 minutes ago, flatfish said:

A year ago I inherited my father's house along with all its contents.

 

14 minutes ago, flatfish said:

My question is do I need to do anything to keep these? I keep getting told that its illegal in NJ to posses a firearm without a firearms ID card and proof of ownership.

A FID card is used to Purchase, not Own. Regarding ownership, did you actually legally inherit all his belongings as noted in an official, executed Will, or just via "next of kin"? That would be an important point to verify "ownership".

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You do not need a PFID to own the guns, transport the guns to range/shop, shoot the guns or to buy long gun ammo. PFID is needed to buy handgun ammo. Dicks and some FFLs require it for all ammo. With an PFID, you can carry an unloaded long gun in your car 24/7, as long as you don't go to federally restricted places...schools, gov't buildings etc.

There is no need to register the guns. You can, but why would you. No proof of ownership is needed if you inherited the guns.

I say go thru the hoops to get it. I have a great deal of respect for law enforcement officers, but some of them might not know all of NJ's gun laws. I could see someone getting jammed up by a cop who does not know that a PFID is not needed to transport, shoot and own guns. Even though the charges would be dropped, it could still mean an afternoon in a holding cell whilst the cops figure it all out. Perhaps I am paranoid.

Just make sure your guns are NJ legal and any with a detachable magazine needs to be 10 rounds or less.

 

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Nothing has a mag larger than 10 rounds, the Garand holds only 8 in the clip plus maybe one in the chamber.

Although I don't have anything that's has more than a 10 round mag, the way I read it the 10 round limit is only on semi-auto guns? 

One of the people who said I needed the FPID card was a just recently retired p/o officer. He referred to it as a 'license' not a purchase permit. He didn't seem to have a clue. When I asked who I would get such an ID from he said maybe try the DMV or the state police.

When did NJ start the FPID thing? I don't ever recall my father or uncles ever having one, they all had hunting licenses though, as did myself as a kid. I remember going to some sort of shotgun training course or test years ago as a kid but haven't had a hunting license here in 30 years or more. When my uncle got too old to hunt, he stayed home, and those here didn't bother going after that. He was the motivator so to speak. He didn't have any kids of his own. When he died, it all became my dad's, when my dad died, everything became mine by default. There wasn't ever any will or anything. My dad was the youngest of his siblings by more than 10 years, so he lived the longest, I'm an only child and a junior name wise. I basically just assumed everything he owned, the house, trucks, car, and everything else.
He didn't have much, and I don't suppose these things are worth very much but like those before me, they were handed down. I do know the one .22 rifle was given to my uncle by my grandfather in 1939, and it belonged to his grandfather before that. I have a picture of my grandfather at about 20 years old holding it in one hand and a pair of dead rabbits in the other. He was born around 1886. It still has his initials carved into the butt plate. I have no clue where he got it, it likely was bought used even then. There's a 30-40 Krag too, its had its wood shortened and refinished but they used it for hunting up in Maine years ago.

They hunted deer here and in PA, and would travel to Maine to hunt bear and moose, and go to Texas once in a while as well. My grandfather and older uncles were the big hunters, my dad not so much. I suppose the Garand came home with one of my uncles as two of them were in WWII.

I would like to take a few of my grandfather's guns and at least fire them a few times just because they belonged to my grandfather, who passed away long before I was born. As did several of my uncles. (Granddad had four families, four wives. All but my dad and two uncles were gone before I came into this world. All but four guns are older than I am.

 

 

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5 hours ago, flatfish said:

Nothing has a mag larger than 10 rounds, the Garand holds only 8 in the clip plus maybe one in the chamber.

Although I don't have anything that's has more than a 10 round mag, the way I read it the 10 round limit is only on semi-auto guns? 

One of the people who said I needed the FPID card was a just recently retired p/o officer. He referred to it as a 'license' not a purchase permit. He didn't seem to have a clue. When I asked who I would get such an ID from he said maybe try the DMV or the state police.

When did NJ start the FPID thing? I don't ever recall my father or uncles ever having one, they all had hunting licenses though, as did myself as a kid. I remember going to some sort of shotgun training course or test years ago as a kid but haven't had a hunting license here in 30 years or more. When my uncle got too old to hunt, he stayed home, and those here didn't bother going after that. He was the motivator so to speak. He didn't have any kids of his own. When he died, it all became my dad's, when my dad died, everything became mine by default. There wasn't ever any will or anything. My dad was the youngest of his siblings by more than 10 years, so he lived the longest, I'm an only child and a junior name wise. I basically just assumed everything he owned, the house, trucks, car, and everything else.
He didn't have much, and I don't suppose these things are worth very much but like those before me, they were handed down. I do know the one .22 rifle was given to my uncle by my grandfather in 1939, and it belonged to his grandfather before that. I have a picture of my grandfather at about 20 years old holding it in one hand and a pair of dead rabbits in the other. He was born around 1886. It still has his initials carved into the butt plate. I have no clue where he got it, it likely was bought used even then. There's a 30-40 Krag too, its had its wood shortened and refinished but they used it for hunting up in Maine years ago.

They hunted deer here and in PA, and would travel to Maine to hunt bear and moose, and go to Texas once in a while as well. My grandfather and older uncles were the big hunters, my dad not so much. I suppose the Garand came home with one of my uncles as two of them were in WWII.

I would like to take a few of my grandfather's guns and at least fire them a few times just because they belonged to my grandfather, who passed away long before I was born. As did several of my uncles. (Granddad had four families, four wives. All but my dad and two uncles were gone before I came into this world. All but four guns are older than I am.

 

 

Not worth much at all....hey I'll buy that garand from you if you dont want it as well as the accoutrements etc from ww2....lemme know...

 

I'm kidding that garand, if correct and original from ww1 can be north of 1k very easily....

 

Your retired cop friend is wrong....  the above answers you got are correct 

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8 hours ago, flatfish said:

I basically just assumed everything he owned, the house, trucks, car, and everything else.

 

8 hours ago, flatfish said:

I would like to take a few of my grandfather's guns and at least fire them a few times just because they belonged to my grandfather, who passed away long before I was born.

I'm not sure I would put a few rifles in my car and go shooting if you "just assumed" them without any formal Will or inheritance documentation. In this state, if you get stopped, and can't prove how you legally obtained the firearms, you're going to get a nice vacation. In this case, I would apply for and get a FID card.

 

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43 minutes ago, Sniper22 said:

I'm not sure I would put a few rifles in my car and go shooting if you "just assumed" them without any formal Will or inheritance documentation. In this state, if you get stopped, and can't prove how you legally obtained the firearms, you're going to get a nice vacation. In this case, I would apply for and get a FID card.

Guns won't be confiscated because you can't prove they are legally yours. Come on. Even in NJ. Unless they come up as stolen on an NCIC check, or absent of a third party complaint, you go on your merry way, WITH your firearms.

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1 hour ago, PK90 said:

WITH your firearms.

How does he PROVE they are HIS? Show the invoice where he purchased them?

1 hour ago, PK90 said:

Guns won't be confiscated because you can't prove they are legally yours.

So, I can go load up my truck with rifles that I haven't bought and have no legal paperwork showing how I obtained them, no FID card, and go cruising through the 'hood in NJ, and have zero concerns?

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11 minutes ago, Sniper22 said:

How does he PROVE they are HIS? Show the invoice where he purchased them?

So, I can go load up my truck with rifles that I haven't bought and have no legal paperwork showing how I obtained them, no FID card, and go cruising through the 'hood in NJ, and have zero concerns?

As @PK90said. Unless they come up stolen...

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So, I can go load up my truck with rifles that I haven't bought and have no legal paperwork showing how I obtained them, no FID card, and go cruising through the 'hood in NJ, and have zero concerns?


To and from range, gun shop or home unless you have FPID for long guns. But you knew that.0c27a1307bc84359e5133b58cf013976.jpg

Sent from an undisclosed location via Tapatalk

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25 minutes ago, Sniper22 said:

How does he PROVE they are HIS? Show the invoice where he purchased them?

So, I can go load up my truck with rifles that I haven't bought and have no legal paperwork showing how I obtained them, no FID card, and go cruising through the 'hood in NJ, and have zero concerns?

The problem with your example is the transportation.  You can only transport long guns if you are going specific places (range, gun shop, etc.)  An FID card lets you transport long guns when you aren't going to these specific places (unloaded and cased).  But an FID card isn't required to own guns.  A receipt isn't required to own guns.

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28 minutes ago, Sniper22 said:

How does he PROVE they are HIS? Show the invoice where he purchased them?

So, I can go load up my truck with rifles that I haven't bought and have no legal paperwork showing how I obtained them, no FID card, and go cruising through the 'hood in NJ, and have zero concerns?

Many people have guns they legally purchased from private parties when they lived in other states.  No invoices, registration, will, or any other way of proving they are yours.

If you are in possession of something in a legal manner police must prove something is not yours.  Even in NJ.

Like others have said, get a FID and load your trunk up with long guns and drive any where except prohibited places and you're not breaking any laws.

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1 hour ago, maintenanceguy said:

An FID card lets you transport long guns when you aren't going to these specific places (unloaded and cased).  But an FID card isn't required to own guns.  A receipt isn't required to own guns.

Yes, according to the "law", but as recent events have shown here, certain LEO's don't give a crap about "law".

1 hour ago, GRIZ said:

If you are in possession of something in a legal manner police must prove something is not yours.  Even in NJ.

Yes, in a perfect world, but once again, this is NJ not Texas, where you're presumed Guilty until proven Innocent regarding firearms. Trying to prove your case to the PD can really get long and expensive with legal help, if you can't show some sort of ownership. Wouldn't be something I'd like to test out.

What if they run the serial numbers and see they come back to someone different but not posted as stolen, how do you explain how they got in your possession without documentation of some sort?

Exactly why I said to get a FID, at least he can show that he's not prohibited from ownership. That's a safe step. I still wouldn't want to be on the receivership of questioning, even on my way to the range, if I was carrying a firearm that I couldn't show I obtained legally in some way...  Who knows where it would lead...

But that's just me...

 

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9 minutes ago, Zeke said:

It’s actually called an FPID

” Firearms Purchaser Identification”

Gee... thanks Dr. Weatherbee....

My point was, if he gets a card, at least he'll be able to show he passed a background check, and is not a felon, and can legally posses firearms. That would be one positive step to help his defense.

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1 minute ago, Sniper22 said:

Gee... thanks Dr. Weatherbee....

My point was, if he gets a card, at least he'll be able to show he passed a background check, and is not a felon, and can legally posses firearms. That would be one positive step to help his defense.

I’m a helper :B:):

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40 minutes ago, Sniper22 said:

Yes, according to the "law", but as recent events have shown here, certain LEO's don't give a crap about "law".

Yes, in a perfect world, but once again, this is NJ not Texas, where you're presumed Guilty until proven Innocent regarding firearms. Trying to prove your case to the PD can really get long and expensive with legal help, if you can't show some sort of ownership. Wouldn't be something I'd like to test out.

What if they run the serial numbers and see they come back to someone different but not posted as stolen, how do you explain how they got in your possession without documentation of some sort?

Exactly why I said to get a FPID, at least he can show that he's not prohibited from ownership. That's a safe step. I still wouldn't want to be on the receivership of questioning, even on my way to the range, if I was carrying a firearm that I couldn't show I obtained legally in some way...  Who knows where it would lead...

But that's just me...

 

Please show me cases of where the police seized guns that someone couldn't prove that they owned them.  Show me cases where people have been legally transporting any gun and have been hassled. 

Running serial numbers will only show stolen guns and handguns purchased with a P2P in NJ.  The computerized handgun registry in NJ is only accurate back to about 2000.  If a handgun comes up on it in someone else's name there are a multitude of ways it may have been legally transferred.

It is up to the police to prove you are a prohibited person.  The onus is not on you to prove you're not.

Yes, it's just you.

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28 minutes ago, GRIZ said:

Please show me cases of where the police seized guns that someone couldn't prove that they owned them. 

Lighten up Francis..

I was referring to LEOs who don't follow the laws, example being a recent poster here who had their firearms taken because of a domestic issue, only to NOT have their 15 rounds mags not returned when the firearms came back, because of the new mag law, and the other poster who claimed to be arrested for possessing a Taser, even though they are legal now. Two recent examples of LEO's not following the laws.

31 minutes ago, GRIZ said:

Show me cases where people have been legally transporting any gun and have been hassled. 

I have no idea how many people (besides boys in the 'hood) who drive around with firearms in their vehicles that they can't show any type of ownership or being legally able to possess. Like I said, it's legal, but me personally, wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of questioning in that situation, knowing how gun un-friendly some areas of this state are.

Would that be a battle you'd like to have on the side of the road, after being in a car crash and being questioning by a LEO?

34 minutes ago, GRIZ said:

If a handgun comes up on it in someone else's name there are a multitude of ways it may have been legally transferred.

I know that, wouldn't it be nice to have the documentation easily available to prove that instead of just saying "I assumed them"?

35 minutes ago, GRIZ said:

It is up to the police to prove you are a prohibited person.  The onus is not on you to prove you're not.

Which circles around for the fourth time to why I said getting a FPID (happy now @Zeke) would certainly help, to show he wasn't prohibited and make the situation a bit less stressful.

 

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1 minute ago, Sniper22 said:

Lighten up Francis..

I was referring to LEOs who don't follow the laws, example being a recent poster here who had their firearms taken because of a domestic issue, only to NOT have their 15 rounds mags not returned when the firearms came back, because of the new mag law, and the other poster who claimed to be arrested for possessing a Taser, even though they are legal now. Two recent examples of LEO's not following the laws.

I have no idea how many people (besides boys in the 'hood) who drive around with firearms in their vehicles that they can't show any type of ownership or being legally able to possess. Like I said, it's legal, but me personally, wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of questioning in that situation, knowing how gun un-friendly some areas of this state are.

Would that be a battle you'd like to have on the side of the road, after being in a car crash and being questioning by a LEO?

I know that, wouldn't it be nice to have the documentation easily available to prove that instead of just saying "I assumed them"?

Which circles around for the fourth time to why I said getting a FPID (happy now @Zeke) would certainly help, to show he wasn't prohibited and make the situation a bit less stressful.

 

I be happy when you stop being so damn persnickety 

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24 minutes ago, Sniper22 said:

Lighten up Francis..

I was referring to LEOs who don't follow the laws, example being a recent poster here who had their firearms taken because of a domestic issue, only to NOT have their 15 rounds mags not returned when the firearms came back, because of the new mag law, and the other poster who claimed to be arrested for possessing a Taser, even though they are legal now. Two recent examples of LEO's not following the laws.

I have no idea how many people (besides boys in the 'hood) who drive around with firearms in their vehicles that they can't show any type of ownership or being legally able to possess. Like I said, it's legal, but me personally, wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of questioning in that situation, knowing how gun un-friendly some areas of this state are.

Would that be a battle you'd like to have on the side of the road, after being in a car crash and being questioning by a LEO?

I know that, wouldn't it be nice to have the documentation easily available to prove that instead of just saying "I assumed them"?

Which circles around for the fourth time to why I said getting a FPID (happy now @Zeke) would certainly help, to show he wasn't prohibited and make the situation a bit less stressful.

 

You need to lighten up.

Law really doesn't allow possession of greater than 15 Rd magazines outside your home now.  How are the police supposed to legally transfer those magazines back to the person?  You also have to consider the police were acting under directives written by the county prosecutor.

The Taser charges will be or have been dismissed with or without the defendant hiring a lawyer.

That's 2 incidents in a state of like 7,000,000 people.  Neither have to do with firearms.

One can avoid gun problems by:

1.  Don't own any.

2.  Just follow the law as difficult as it seems at times.

What battle do you expect if you get in a car crash if you legally have guns in your car?

Do you walk around with receipts for that expensive camera or wrist watch in case you get stopped by police?

The FPID doesn't prove you aren't a prohibited person.  It only proves there is no records making you a prohibited person when you got it.  How many habitual marijuana users have FPIDs?  Don't know because they lied applying for the FPID.

Police can't legally seize your guns while they investigate whether or not you're a prohibited person .

 

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1 hour ago, GRIZ said:

You need to lighten up.

Law really doesn't allow possession of greater than 15 Rd magazines outside your home now.  How are the police supposed to legally transfer those magazines back to the person?  You also have to consider the police were acting under directives written by the county prosecutor.

The Taser charges will be or have been dismissed with or without the defendant hiring a lawyer.

That's 2 incidents in a state of like 7,000,000 people.  Neither have to do with firearms.

One can avoid gun problems by:

1.  Don't own any.

2.  Just follow the law as difficult as it seems at times.

What battle do you expect if you get in a car crash if you legally have guns in your car?

Do you walk around with receipts for that expensive camera or wrist watch in case you get stopped by police?

The FPID doesn't prove you aren't a prohibited person.  It only proves there is no records making you a prohibited person when you got it.  How many habitual marijuana users have FPIDs?  Don't know because they lied applying for the FPID.

Police can't legally seize your guns while they investigate whether or not you're a prohibited person .

 

How about the police just bring them back to the residence of the owner? Seems simple enough. 

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1 hour ago, siderman said:

How about the police just bring them back to the residence of the owner? Seems simple enough. 

The magazines were never released.  There is nothing to allow police to serve as a delivery service for returned property.

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3 hours ago, GRIZ said:

Law really doesn't allow possession of greater than 15 Rd magazines outside your home now.  How are the police supposed to legally transfer those magazines back to the person? 

Gee, maybe because they took them unlawfully to start with, but you claim they can't bring the unlawfully acquired magazines back to their original owner, since they're lawful to own in her house (where they were originally) until Dec. 13th?

3 hours ago, GRIZ said:

Do you walk around with receipts for that expensive camera or wrist watch in case you get stopped by police?

Really? You're going to compare them to firearm ownership in THIS state? Really?

4 hours ago, GRIZ said:

Law really doesn't allow possession of greater than 15 Rd magazines outside your home now.

She didn't have them OUTSIDE her home, they were taken from a legal place of possession now, IN her home.

4 hours ago, GRIZ said:

You also have to consider the police were acting under directives written by the county prosecutor.

So, county prosecutors can write and change laws however they feel that day? The things we learn here.

4 hours ago, GRIZ said:

The FPID doesn't prove you aren't a prohibited person.  It only proves there is no records making you a prohibited person when you got it.  How many habitual marijuana users have FPIDs?  Don't know because they lied applying for the FPID.

Wow, talk about reaching....

 

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6 hours ago, Sniper22 said:

What if they run the serial numbers and see they come back to someone different but not posted as stolen

What if there was no serial number to run?   There are plenty of perfectly legal guns out there with no serial numbers whatsoever.   Yes, even perfectly legal in NJ.

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28 minutes ago, Sniper22 said:

Gee, maybe because they took them unlawfully to start with, but you claim they can't bring the unlawfully acquired magazines back to their original owner, since they're lawful to own in her house (where they were originally) until Dec. 13th?

Really? You're going to compare them to firearm ownership in THIS state? Really?

She didn't have them OUTSIDE her home, they were taken from a legal place of possession now, IN her home.

So, county prosecutors can write and change laws however they feel that day? The things we learn here.

Wow, talk about reaching....

 

The seizure of the magazines was discussed thoroughly in the thread.  Read my responses there and we can continue that discussion in that thread.

To respond to two points that haven't been discussed to death:

1.  The police are not a delivery service.  You offer no rationale why they should be.

2.  Transfer of the magazines from the seized property room to the original owner is not an exemption under the law.  Not saying I agree with the law.  You need to read it.

3.  Reaching? You're claiming there are no gun owners who habitually use marijuana?  That they could get away lying on the application because they never were caught?  Based on the number of people who are for recreational marijuana just on this forum you need to open your eyes.

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I went through the lot of rifles and shotguns here, only 5 have any sort of number on them. Most have no numbers, but from what I read online, they didn't require serial numbers till 1968. Most all of these are at least that old. It looks like only the Remington .22 rifles, one Remington pump shotgun, the single Remington semiauto rifle, and the Garand have serial numbers. Nothing is stolen and nothing has seen the light of day since at least 1987 or so. Most haven't been out of the attic in 60 years.

If having an FPID card is so important, then why didn't we need one years ago while hunting? I remember going hunting with my uncle in the 70's and all we had were hunting licenses. I do remember going through some sort of shotgun qualification course when I was a kid, but that was with my uncle's Ithaca 12ga, (which I've not found here yet, but maybe that explains why there's one odd newer Remington pump in the lot from the mid 80's?).


I did find another box stuffed back in the eaves of the attic that had another Garand, a Lee Enfield, a Japanese rifle, and what I believe is a German Mauser. two were wrapped up in old flags, and in the same box with my grandfather's old WW2 uniform. The Garand was wrapped up in a long wood coat, and the Enfield was in a makeshift bag made from an old pair of pants. The only ammo in that box was for the Japanese rifle, appears to be a 7.7, and about 300 empty .303 casings. His discharge papers and some papers showing his shipping the Japanese and German Rifles home. Nothing on the Garand and the .303. These rifles are all well used, lots of nicks and scrapes, lots of oily stains on the wood, even dirt packed in the Japanese rifle. Its got numbers but they're not listed on the papers in the box. The Japanese rifle had no bolt, but it explains why I found an odd bolt wrapped up in a pair of old green rags in a duffel bag elsewhere in the attic a few months ago. It fits the Japanese rifle and has matching numbers.

I also found a 36" long double barrel shotgun that's missing its wood, there's no markings on it at all and it appears to be black powder. Its got two hammers with little nipples with holes where the hammers strike. The barrel has a lot of fancy scroll work but its mostly worn off. The stock is badly broken and fragile, and the forend is missing. It was leaning against a wall stud behind the knee wall upstairs, with a bag of shot, a can of powder, and a small tin full of caps. It was half buried in the insulation and half in dust.

The other Garand is like new, likely it never saw combat, but the one I found today likely saw lots of use and lots of weather.  My grandfather never spoke about his time in the war, nor did his brothers. They all brought back souvenirs, but only my grandfather was in both Europe and the Pacific. This was my other grandfather's box, from my mother's side, he died when I was real young but he lived with us here back then. I suppose he brought it here when he moved here in the early 60's. It was stuffed all the way back in a corner, wedged between the downstairs floor joists and rafters behind a wall.

The attic was partially finished off for storage in the late 60's, it originally was just open rafters and planks to walk on. They put up knee walls along both sides and put tongue and groove planks down in between so the area could be used for storage. Over the years, it got pretty much filled up with everything from old furniture, clothes, holiday decorations, old books, steamer trunks, and lots of old military boxes that were used to store all sorts of stuff. I'll be doing more digging around up there as the weather cools down.

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10 hours ago, PK90 said:

Guns won't be confiscated because you can't prove they are legally yours. Come on. Even in NJ. Unless they come up as stolen on an NCIC check, or absent of a third party complaint, you go on your merry way, WITH your firearms.

He will be charged with unlawful possession until they sort it out.  You know the way it works .....Get  the card before you carry them around.  There is an exemption for hunting.

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