Remington V3 Tac-13

[PK90 3,570]

These are now showing up on GunBroker.

[Maksim 1,504]

Seriously.... why?!

Yes it is small.... but would anyone seriously use this as a defensive weapon over one with an actual stock?

[Screwball 483]

1 hour ago, Maksim said:

Seriously.... why?!

Yes it is small.... but would anyone seriously use this as a defensive weapon over one with an actual stock?

Wait for someone to make a brace for it...

Even funner if it is a folding brace. Got to love a firearm like that which isn’t applicable to NJ assault weapon regulation.

If I can make time, I want to try and get my TAC-14 out to Salomon’s. Just a gun you don’t want to shoot within a booth. Still makes you smile.

[Maksim 1,504]

Just now, Screwball said:

Wait for someone to make a brace for it...

Even funner if it is a folding brace. Got to love a firearm like that which isn’t applicable to NJ assault weapon regulation.

If I can make time, I want to try and get my TAC-14 out to Salomon’s. Just a gun you don’t want to shoot within a booth. Still makes you smile.

and wait and see how quickly you are going to be asked not to come again. =) 

 

[Screwball 483]

Gene would be happy to take my money. No issue when I used my 20” Ithaca, while my trap gun was at Mossberg for repair.

[Ray Ray 3,566]

11 hours ago, Maksim said:

but would anyone seriously use this as a defensive weapon over one with an actual stock?

Yes

Waiting on Mossberg to do a 930 version. 

[fishnut 2,358]

1 hour ago, Ray Ray said:

Yes

Waiting on Mossberg to do a 930 version. 

Same here. 

[Spawne32 37]

On 10/10/2018 at 7:43 PM, maintenanceguy said:

 

 

I am old enough and confident enough in my manhood to shoot a .410.

 

I still fail to see why people think .410 won't kill an intruder in a home defense situation. I'd rather have more precise control and less recoil jumping up out of my sleep at 2am then be blowing holes in walls and shooting my neighbors because im too groggy to hold a hand cannon. lol I think it's a neat round, just wish it had more options.

[myhatinthering 462]

On 12/19/2018 at 9:15 PM, Ray Ray said:

Yes

Waiting on Mossberg to do a 930 version. 

agree,

[Screwball 483]

12 minutes ago, Spawne32 said:

I think it's a neat round, just wish it had more options.

That’s why most don’t utilize it...

That being said, 12 Gauge isn’t an hand cannon. Unless you start into 3” Magnum or bigger (3.5”), it isn’t that hard to shoot. I’d recommend 20 Gauge, but just the same boat as .410; not a lot of choices. I know people that shoot .44 Magnum just fine, and others who are afraid to even try. Very similar concept, as there are those who are recoil sensitive.

.410, to me, is a game gun. It is along the lines of a .22... where it isn’t necessarily something I’m likely going to put my life on. If all I had was a .410 or .22, would I use it? Of course... but very far from my first choice.

Talking .410 in regards to defense leaves me with a bad taste, as I still have people who argue the Judge is the ultimate defensive weapon.

[Spawne32 37]

4 minutes ago, Screwball said:

That’s why most don’t utilize it...

That being said, 12 Gauge isn’t an hand cannon. Unless you start into 3” Magnum or bigger (3.5”), it isn’t that hard to shoot. I’d recommend 20 Gauge, but just the same boat as .410; not a lot of choices. I know people that shoot .44 Magnum just fine, and others who are afraid to even try. Very similar concept, as there are those who are recoil sensitive.

.410, to me, is a game gun. It is along the lines of a .22... where it isn’t necessarily something I’m likely going to put my life on. If all I had was a .410 or .22, would I use it? Of course... but very far from my first choice.

Talking .410 in regards to defense leaves me with a bad taste, as I still have people who argue the Judge is the ultimate defensive weapon.

Well I spoke about this topic with the guy's at the local gun shop when trying to choose which particular shockwave would be the best choice for a home defense weapon absent a handgun, that would work well for an older woman who was by herself. The thing I felt was nice about it was that Winchester makes what seems to be some decent rounds for it. They have 3" .410 shells in Super X that are 5 #000 at 1130fps and PDX Defender at 750fps, which I still think is plenty lethal to most intruders. I'm curious how they actually pattern at 5-10 yards through the shockwave.

[Screwball 483]

1 minute ago, Spawne32 said:

Well I spoke about this topic with the guy's at the local gun shop when trying to choose which particular shockwave would be the best choice for a home defense weapon absent a handgun, that would work well for an older woman who was by herself. The thing I felt was nice about it was that Winchester makes what seems to be some decent rounds for it. They have 3" .410 shells in Super X that are 5 #000 at 1130fps and PDX Defender at 750fps, which I still think is plenty lethal to most intruders. I'm curious how they actually pattern at 5-10 yards through the shockwave.

If you are going to train with it, I’d say maybe. Not a traditional shooting firearm, to be short with it.

But to be honest, going with a stocked shotgun... even going 20 Gauge, might be a worthwhile alternative. I don’t understand why something with a stock isn’t up on the list... even some of the pistol caliber carbines that are out (granted, you are now down to 10 rounds).

PDX1 is actually my home defense load... but in 12 Gauge, with slug and 00. It is very consistent, and a load I trust. No idea on the .410 stuff, as I don’t have a need for it. Would have to pattern it to find out.

[Spawne32 37]

1 minute ago, Screwball said:

If you are going to train with it, I’d say maybe. Not a traditional shooting firearm, to be short with it.

But to be honest, going with a stocked shotgun... even going 20 Gauge, might be a worthwhile alternative. I don’t understand why something with a stock isn’t up on the list... even some of the pistol caliber carbines that are out (granted, you are now down to 10 rounds).

PDX1 is actually my home defense load... but in 12 Gauge, with slug and 00. It is very consistent, and a load I trust. No idea on the .410 stuff, as I don’t have a need for it. Would have to pattern it to find out.

Yah, ill post up some pictures of the patterns next time im at the range with the PDX and SuperX rounds, I am curious. I have seen it fired with the judge as well, but because the judge has such a short barrel, it didn't seem to be very effective. The longer barrel of the shockwave I have heard makes .410 a much more viable round for home defense, so I am told by the experts.

[Screwball 483]

10 minutes ago, Spawne32 said:

I have seen it fired with the judge as well, but because the judge has such a short barrel, it didn't seem to be very effective. The longer barrel of the shockwave I have heard makes .410 a much more viable round for home defense, so I am told by the experts.

I doubt there are “experts” in regards to .410 defensive performance. Don’t mean any disrespect by it, but just making the barrel longer doesn’t automatically mean better performance. Quick example off the top of my head, .45 ACP... you don’t want to go further than 16” barrels, as velocities start dropping by then. I believe most common pistol calibers are in that same boat.

Those PDX1 rounds were actually designed to be fired from the Judge. Depending on powder (fast burning for short barrel), you might not see a great increase in performance out of a 14” barrel.

Main issue with the Judge is that it is a compromise gun. Rifling, which is needed for it not to be an AOW, distorts the pattern. Bullet jump of .45 Colt with the long cylinder lowers accuracy for those rounds. Most guns that do multiple things like that usually are mediocre among all the things it does. I’d think a smoothbore Judge would pattern a lot better than the revolver produced... but a traditional .45 Colt would shoot more accurately, just the same.

[Spawne32 37]

15 minutes ago, Screwball said:

I doubt there are “experts” in regards to .410 defensive performance. Don’t mean any disrespect by it, but just making the barrel longer doesn’t automatically mean better performance. Quick example off the top of my head, .45 ACP... you don’t want to go further than 16” barrels, as velocities start dropping by then. I believe most common pistol calibers are in that same boat.

Those PDX1 rounds were actually designed to be fired from the Judge. Depending on powder (fast burning for short barrel), you might not see a great increase in performance out of a 14” barrel.

Main issue with the Judge is that it is a compromise gun. Rifling, which is needed for it not to be an AOW, distorts the pattern. Bullet jump of .45 Colt with the long cylinder lowers accuracy for those rounds. Most guns that do multiple things like that usually are mediocre among all the things it does. I’d think a smoothbore Judge would pattern a lot better than the revolver produced... but a traditional .45 Colt would shoot more accurately, just the same.

On the SuperX that winchester sells, it still shows a 1300-1130fps, depending on the round size, 2 1/2 and 3" muzzle velocity, is it just the kinetic power that is lessened by using the .410 bore? Least that's the way I would think it would work. The 3" SuperX rounds are 5 #000 loaded into that shell, where a comparable #12 gauge, with 8 or 10 pellets, also does similar fps. I would think the stopping power would be largely similar, would it not?

[samtechlan 23]

On 12/19/2018 at 10:35 AM, Screwball said:

Wait for someone to make a brace for it...

Even funner if it is a folding brace. Got to love a firearm like that which isn’t applicable to NJ assault weapon regulation.

If I can make time, I want to try and get my TAC-14 out to Salomon’s. Just a gun you don’t want to shoot within a booth. Still makes you smile.

There is already a brace for it.  I'm sure there will be several versions from different manufacturers in no time.  In many ways this makes even more sense than on the pump shockwave type guns as the benelli-like versamax gas system significantly reduces the felt recoil as compared to a pump.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDNUJr8OJis

[Screwball 483]

5 hours ago, Spawne32 said:

On the SuperX that winchester sells, it still shows a 1300-1130fps, depending on the round size, 2 1/2 and 3" muzzle velocity, is it just the kinetic power that is lessened by using the .410 bore? Least that's the way I would think it would work. The 3" SuperX rounds are 5 #000 loaded into that shell, where a comparable #12 gauge, with 8 or 10 pellets, also does similar fps. I would think the stopping power would be largely similar, would it not?

Just checked Winchester... 2.5” shells are 1,300 FPS with 3 000 pellets. 3” is 1,100 FPS with 5 pellets.

000 is about the size of .38/9mm... but mass is a bit different. I think a single 000 pellet is around 62 grains, whereas a similar 9mm at about that speed (stick to standard pressure; but I’m also figuring that velocity will be in the area coming out of a 14” barrel; 9mm would be a 16” barrel) is 124 grain. Lead ball verses different bullet designs, some expanding. I wouldn’t want to be hit with either, but terminal performance is likely going to favor 9mm. Shotguns make up for that with more pellets, which is why more is usually “better.”

It seems you want the numbers to work out, but I’ve seen people miss targets with a stocked shotgun... when they have a pattern of 8 to 10 pellets. Cutting them down to either 3 or 5, you are also reducing your likelihood of hit. Pattern is going to be a bigger importance with that setup.

I’d also suggest to get good with a single bead sight. Some think it is just an easy way of sighting... put bead on target, pull trigger. Receiver covers any of the bead, going to hit low. See the barrel in your sight picture... going to hit high. Favoring a side of the receiver... left or right.

That being said, not wanting a pistol... how come a stocked shotgun/carbine isn’t an option? For someone who is a beginner, I view a Shockwave as an odd choice. There are plenty of regular shooters on here that don’t like the firearm setup. I definitely like it, but I do admit... it is not for everyone.

6 hours ago, samtechlan said:

There is already a brace for it.  I'm sure there will be several versions from different manufacturers in no time.  In many ways this makes even more sense than on the pump shockwave type guns as the benelli-like versamax gas system significantly reduces the felt recoil as compared to a pump.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDNUJr8OJis

Funny what a month’s time does...

[Spawne32 37]

5 hours ago, Screwball said:

Just checked Winchester... 2.5” shells are 1,300 FPS with 3 000 pellets. 3” is 1,100 FPS with 5 pellets.

000 is about the size of .38/9mm... but mass is a bit different. I think a single 000 pellet is around 62 grains, whereas a similar 9mm at about that speed (stick to standard pressure; but I’m also figuring that velocity will be in the area coming out of a 14” barrel; 9mm would be a 16” barrel) is 124 grain. Lead ball verses different bullet designs, some expanding. I wouldn’t want to be hit with either, but terminal performance is likely going to favor 9mm. Shotguns make up for that with more pellets, which is why more is usually “better.”

It seems you want the numbers to work out, but I’ve seen people miss targets with a stocked shotgun... when they have a pattern of 8 to 10 pellets. Cutting them down to either 3 or 5, you are also reducing your likelihood of hit. Pattern is going to be a bigger importance with that setup.

I’d also suggest to get good with a single bead sight. Some think it is just an easy way of sighting... put bead on target, pull trigger. Receiver covers any of the bead, going to hit low. See the barrel in your sight picture... going to hit high. Favoring a side of the receiver... left or right.

That being said, not wanting a pistol... how come a stocked shotgun/carbine isn’t an option? For someone who is a beginner, I view a Shockwave as an odd choice. There are plenty of regular shooters on here that don’t like the firearm setup. I definitely like it, but I do admit... it is not for everyone.

Funny what a month’s time does...

Not trying to make the numbers work out at all, I can handle a 12 gauge or a handgun myself, but my 60 something year old mother cannot. The shockwave worked out nicely for her because it was easy for her to handle and easy for her to understand. My real question was whether or not its going to be effective as a defense round should someone break into the house. The way people treat this round is as if its going to bounce off the intended target like a bb gun should they be anything but bare naked when your taking the shot. But I found my answers to my question here. 

 

[Screwball 483]

11 minutes ago, Spawne32 said:

Not trying to make the numbers work out at all, I can handle a 12 gauge or a handgun myself, but my 60 something year old mother cannot. The shockwave worked out nicely for her because it was easy for her to handle and easy for her to understand. My real question was whether or not its going to be effective as a defense round should someone break into the house. The way people treat this round is as if its going to bounce off the intended target like a bb gun should they be anything but bare naked when your taking the shot. But I found my answers to my question here.

Sorry, but not going to watch a 15 minute video while at work... Sparks Notes version?

The real question I have, whether you settle on .410 or not (I’ll touch that later), is how does a Shockwave work out better than an 18” 500 in this situation? I’m not seeing why the Shockwave is so much better... but I’m also not one of these “experts” you mentioned earlier. And remember, I’m definitely one that supports the use of these... but I also have a conscious when someone asks me a question like that. I could easily say, “yea... she will be good with it.” But I am also not trying to sell you on something.

Is your 60ish year old mother going to practice with the Shockwave? If not, putting a stocked shotgun likely would be a little better of an idea, as shouldered weapons do tend to lend themselves as a better choice. Same exact function between the two. Is a regular 500 going to be larger (get a youth stock, if it didn’t already come with one)? Yes... but I’ve yet to hear a reason why not. That was my main question.

To be clear, DO NOT add a stock to the Shockwave. Would be breaking Federal and State laws, regarding Short Barrel Shotguns.

In regards to the round “bouncing off,” where exactly did I state that? Think I said it wouldn’t be my first choice (but if it was all I had, I’d use it) and that I personally wouldn’t want to be shot with it. You asked a question about .410... and I gave you my view. Just because a projectile hits a target doesn’t mean it will be effective. How many instances are there of people taking multiple handgun hits, even ones proving to be fatal, and still inflicting damage? You can look that stuff up yourself very easily, if it interests you. Prior to bullet technology catching up, the idea was to go bigger/faster. Then you hit a wall where some shooters couldn’t connect (10mm), and it was moved back (10mm Lite/.40). Not that this directly speaks here, but seeing the move back to 9mm was mainly due to better bullets that expand more reliably (among other factors that really would bring this far off topic).

What stops someone? Ideally, a round into the central nervous system... mainly the brain or spinal cord. If not that, putting as many holes (large as possible) into the person, to make enough blood loss to stop the fight (a lot slower than the first option). Let’s say you fire a round, hits the floor in front of the guy... will he run away? Likely... which is a win, but that isn’t a guarantee. If it were, you could just go Joe Biden, put in blanks, and call it good.

000 buckshot, while definitely capable of inflicting damage, is still a lead ball. Sorry if that goes against the view .410 will always do the job, but lesser pellets in addition to a non-traditional firearm (Shockwave), I don’t view it as a good option. There always are stipulations that changes view, but from what you wrote... that’s my opinion. Again, sorry if you disagree or think I’m viewing the .410 as anemic.

[CAL. .30 M1 2,101]

...i want to make sure I understand this...as i am not up at all on the shockwaves or this model.

 

This is not considered classified a short barreled shotgun?

No NFA?

It is categorized as a firearm, not pistol, not shotgun, not rifle....???  No nfa etc..

Being it is classified as a firearm, a folding arm brace pistol grip is ....legal in nj?  And elsewhere?

Anyone have links to official paperwork?

Of this is all.legit...as @CageFighter said..take my.money....

Anyone ever see outland with sean connery?

[Screwball 483]

5 hours ago, USRifle30Cal said:

...i want to make sure I understand this...as i am not up at all on the shockwaves or this model.

This is not considered classified a short barreled shotgun?

No NFA?

It is categorized as a firearm, not pistol, not shotgun, not rifle....???  No nfa etc..

Being it is classified as a firearm, a folding arm brace pistol grip is ....legal in nj?  And elsewhere?

Anyone have links to official paperwork?

You can read up the Federal regulations pretty easily. Short version... no stock, no rifled barrel, over 26”/designed to be fired with two hands... can’t be considered a rifle, shotgun, pistol, or AOW. Without being one of those, can’t be any of the NFA stuff (isn’t a DD because of using shotgun shells; can’t make a SBS from something that isn’t a shotgun).

In regards to NJ, the NJSP released a letter to FFLs pertaining to these firearms. It was in a long thread on the Shockwave, titled something like “NJ Legal?” If someone else with a better interface of the forum can’t link it for you, going to have to look for yourself, as the mobile site isn’t working to well for me.

Spark notes version... the TAC-14, Shockwave, and Black Aces DT are not considered shotguns, but firearms. As long as you follow Federal law, and don’t build one off a shotgun, they are legal... and transferred like a long gun (must be 21, which is Federal). Similar firearms are also ok, following same stipulations.

Braced firearms are good to go Federally. In regards to NJ, the Black Aces DT comes with one... so don’t see an issue (named in the NJSP letter). Not a stock, so ok.

[Ray Ray 3,566]

On 1/23/2019 at 7:33 AM, USRifle30Cal said:

...i want to make sure I understand this...as i am not up at all on the shockwaves or this model.

These are not Shockwaves, those are made by Mossberg.  This is a rip off from a higher quality company. 

[Zeke 5,504]

37 minutes ago, Ray Ray said:

These are not Shockwaves, those are made by Mossberg.  This is a rip off from a higher quality company. 

Agree. Remington is a higher quality company.

[Screwball 483]

In all fairness, whichever way you swing... Black Aces did all the legwork on the 12 Gauge “firearm” concept. Credit does need to go where credit is due... Mossberg may have listed their pistol grip guns for years as firearms, but they weren’t the ones to push that envelope into a 14” barrel, nor did they get the original approval letter from the ATF (Black Aces’ letter is from 2014; Mossberg’s Shockwave letter is from 2017).

It is funny that Mossberg called it the Shockwave, and kind of caused all the confusion. Shockwave is actually a grip/brace company, which produces the Raptor grip... used on both the (Mossberg) Shockwave and TAC-14/13.

I’m sure until Mossberg got their lawyers researching into it, they thought it was a Randy Weaver situation with them.

[vladtepes 1,060]

On 1/21/2019 at 12:59 PM, Screwball said:

if you disagree or think I’m viewing the .410 as anemic.

.410 is anemic.. 

is it better than nothing? sure... the problem with .410 is pretty simple in just looking at a few gel tests.. 

it lacks the energy and penetration to make it a as good as some other choices... its no more complex than that... when you view gel tests on things like 12 gauge or 5.56 for example.. you will see deep penetration.. very large temporary wound cavity... and lot of energy being dumped into the target... the exact things you want to see when trying to stop a criminal... when you watch 410 you will see a substantial reduction.. 

its not a bad SD round because someone says it is.. its a bad SD round simply because of the way it impacts the target.. 

in looking at several tests.. I think if you go with 410 the ammo choice is really critical.. 

in fairness this is out of a pistol.. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[PK90 3,570]

Folding brace available for the TAC-13.

https://suarezinternational.com/suarez-tac-13-v3-folding-arm-brace-system-for-12-gauge/

[Screwball 483]

31 minutes ago, PK90 said:

Folding brace available for the TAC-13.

https://suarezinternational.com/suarez-tac-13-v3-folding-arm-brace-system-for-12-gauge/

Wondering if it is just the same as the TAC-14 or they had to mess with it. I plan on getting the TAC-13, so will wait on the brace until I get it in hand and try the one I have.

Funny thing, Suarez really badmouthed the TAC-13 as soon as it came out. Very different view when you watch the YouTube video on the new firearm.

Far from a fan of Gabe, and even most of his products/views... but a handful do let me overlook some of the stuff he has to say. He definitely is pushing the TAC-14 further than it would have been without him.

[PK90 3,570]

No Tac-14 parts will work on the Tac-13.

[Screwball 483]

3 hours ago, PK90 said:

No Tac-14 parts will work on the Tac-13.

They put in that spacer to allow the same grip to work on the TAC-13... but gap between the trigger guard and Magpul AK grip is where you’ll see issues.

Other brace setups I’ve seen, there was a decent gap between the trigger guard and where the grip ends.

I had that identical situation when I was running a GG&G sling plate on my TAC-14. Actually looked to be about the same thickness as the adapter plate. If I run the standard Raptor grip, I toss that plate on (moves the grip back slightly, but profile doesn’t make it that uncomfortable). I just put a QD point on top of the Suarez (Choate makes the mechanism) assembly to make it work with a sling.

[Ray Ray 3,566]

As I have stated before, I want the 930 version.  What I forgot about is that the design of the 930 will not lend itself to a pistol grip.  Damn it