Murphy proposed new gun laws after Pittsburgh

[Sniper 6,372]

1 hour ago, reloaderguy said:

The record of sale or disposition shall be maintained in a bound form and shall contain the date of the transaction, name of manufacturer, caliber or gauge, quantity of ammunition sold, name, address and date of birth of purchaser, and identification used to establish the identity of purchaser.

Interesting, it's been years since I bought handgun ammo in this state, but when I did, none of the personal information was collected from me. Do they consider copying your FID number adequate, because that was the only thing recorded?

[PK90 3,570]

Here you go:
https://www.state.nj.us/njsp/info/pdf/firearms/njac-title13-ch54.pdf
13:54-3.14 Permanent record of receipt and disposition of firearms and ammunition
(a) Every retail dealer of firearms or gunsmith shall maintain a permanent record of each firearm acquisition and disposition, including firearm frames and receivers. The record shall be maintained in a bound form and shall be kept at the location where the business is being conducted. The purchase or other acquisition of a firearm by the licensed dealer must be recorded no later than at the close of the next business day following the date of such purchase or other acquisition. The record shall show the date each firearm was purchased or otherwise acquired, the type, manufacturer, importer, caliber or gauge, model, name and address of the person from whom received, and the serial number of the firearm. The sale or other disposition of a firearm must be recorded by the licensed dealer not later than the close of the next business day following the date of such sale or disposition. The record shall show the date of sale or other disposition of each firearm, the name and address of the person to whom the firearm was transferred, and the type, manufacturer, importer, caliber or gauge, model and the serial number of the firearm. The information prescribed for the record required by this subchapter shall be in addition to the maintenance of the form of register SP 671 and the certificate of eligibility NJSP-634. (b) Every retail dealer of ammunition shall maintain a permanent record of ammunition acquisition and disposition. The record of purchase or acquisition shall consist of invoices or other commercial records which shall be filed in an orderly manner separate from other commercial records maintained. Such record shall show the name of the manufacturer, the type, caliber or gauge, quantity of the ammunition acquired in the transaction, the date of each acquisition and from whom received. The record of sale or disposition shall be maintained in a bound form and shall contain the date of the transaction, name of manufacturer, caliber or gauge, quantity of ammunition sold, name, address and date of birth of purchaser, and identification used to establish the identity of purchaser. The dealer shall confirm the age of the purchaser of rifle and shotgun ammunition as 18, and handgun ammunition as 21. No record need be maintained for the sale or disposition of shotgun or rifle ammunition. However, sales or other dispositions of ammunition intended for use in any other firearm and which may be interchangeable between rifles and handguns, as well as hollow-nosed or dum-dum ammunition, must be recorded. The records shall be maintained in chronological order by date of acquisition and disposition and shall be kept at the location the business is being conducted. © The firearms and ammunition acquisition and disposition record as prescribed under this section need not be required, provided the dealer maintains an updated Federal firearms and ammunition record on firearms or ammunition purchased or acquired and sold as prescribed in Title 26, Internal Revenue, Chapter 1 "Commerce in Firearms and Ammunition", and to the extent that the information required by this section is included on such records. If not included, then the Federal records are to be supplemented so as to include all information required by this section.

Thank you for posting something we all know. Still, no information is collected by the NJSP or ATF regarding ammunition sales.

The records shall be maintained in chronological order by date of acquisition and disposition and shall be kept at the location the business is being conducted.

I was a NJ Dealer for 12 years and don't recall one time an inspector even looked at the ammo book.

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[myhatinthering 462]

On 11/10/2018 at 7:39 PM, High Exposure said:

outstanding!!!!!

[myhatinthering 462]

guys, they can't ban ammo sales or components to produce ammo as this was already ruled on numerous times as protected under the 2nd.  California's ban was just shot down not too long ago.

 

the problem for us is not enough of the non minority working class are voting.  All of us need to personally get 10 people to vote, that's how it starts

[YankeeSC 1,204]

12 hours ago, reloaderguy said:

Here you go:

https://www.state.nj.us/njsp/info/pdf/firearms/njac-title13-ch54.pdf

13:54-3.14 Permanent record of receipt and disposition of firearms and ammunition

...

(b) Every retail dealer of ammunition shall maintain a permanent record of ammunition acquisition and disposition. The record of purchase or acquisition shall consist of invoices or other commercial records which shall be filed in an orderly manner separate from other commercial records maintained. Such record shall show the name of the manufacturer, the type, caliber or gauge, quantity of the ammunition acquired in the transaction, the date of each acquisition and from whom received. The record of sale or disposition shall be maintained in a bound form and shall contain the date of the transaction, name of manufacturer, caliber or gauge, quantity of ammunition sold, name, address and date of birth of purchaser, and identification used to establish the identity of purchaser. The dealer shall confirm the age of the purchaser of rifle and shotgun ammunition as 18, and handgun ammunition as 21. No record need be maintained for the sale or disposition of shotgun or rifle ammunition. However, sales or other dispositions of ammunition intended for use in any other firearm and which may be interchangeable between rifles and handguns, as well as hollow-nosed or dum-dum ammunition, must be recorded. The records shall be maintained in chronological order by date of acquisition and disposition and shall be kept at the location the business is being conducted.

Nowhere in what you posted says it must be reported, only recorded.

[reloaderguy 30]

1 minute ago, tomk62 said:

Nowhere in what you posted says it must be reported, only recorded.

Same thing. The State Police can review anytime.

[9X19 125]

On 11/10/2018 at 11:04 PM, PK90 said:

Dealers keep a log for only handgun and hollowpoint ammo sales. Nothing is reported. 

 

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Correct.

1 minute ago, reloaderguy said:

Same thing. The State Police can review anytime.

At the 3 FFL’s I worked for they never ever reviewed it. I’m sure Paul who onwed an FFL in NJ for many years will agree.

[reloaderguy 30]

2 minutes ago, 9X19 said:

Correct.

At the 3 FFL’s I worked for they never ever reviewed it. I’m sure Paul who onwed an FFL in NJ for many years will agree.

And im sure they never review records for gun sales.

[YankeeSC 1,204]

5 minutes ago, reloaderguy said:

Same thing. The State Police can review anytime.

Huge difference.  They have to physically come out on premise and take the time and effort to review.  Quite a bit of expense to do that at every retailer on a regular basis.

To require retailers to report is quite a different matter, flips it around entirely and puts the cost on the reporting party.  Easy to then review or worse use for nefarious purposes.

[elongobardi 19]

Everyone is leaving... don’t expect electoral change

I know and I plan on getting out of NJ myself


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Wifey listens to them on her ride home sometimes, she says the same thing. She says WTF is wrong with the people in this state. Must be the fumes from the refineries....
 

That and the water.


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[elongobardi 19]

Yes. Just ask any dealer. All of a sudden a few years ago we went from no document of sale from all dealers to every dealer now puts your info in a book. You think the dealers just got together and decided to do this? No. The State Police told them to do it.
 

Assholes. It’s tough enough. We don’t need to make it worse


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[BobA 1,235]

1 hour ago, myhatinthering said:

guys, they can't ban ammo sales or components to produce ammo as this was already ruled on numerous times as protected under the 2nd.  California's ban was just shot down not too long ago.

 

But the laws, including federal ones doesn’t seem to stop this administration. Pot will still be a federal crime and ICE has federal laws and judges behind it and they don’t care. 

[reloaderguy 30]

12 minutes ago, elongobardi said:

Assholes. It’s tough enough. We don’t need to make it worse


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We dont have to. They do it for us. Best thing is to move. We have no 2nd Ammendment friendly organizations that are capable of winning any cases.

[YankeeSC 1,204]

Your'e all effed big time ....

https://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2018/11/is_this_the_blues_nj_has_ever_been.html

[Sniper 6,372]

50 minutes ago, tomk62 said:

Your'e all effed big time ....

https://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2018/11/is_this_the_blues_nj_has_ever_been.html

We've been effed for a long time, the state has had a Dem legislature for quite a while.

Now, we have crap for representation in DC, when was the last time the DC assholes have done anything positive for us?

Red or Blue in DC, they were useless to us here.

[njJoniGuy 2,131]

51 minutes ago, tomk62 said:

Your'e all effed big time ....

https://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2018/11/is_this_the_blues_nj_has_ever_been.html

I'm a bit ill after looking through the local election results.

[PK90 3,570]

Coming soon.

 

[njJoniGuy 2,131]

https://thereformedconservative.org/weimar-republic-and-gun-control/

Weimar Republic and Gun Control

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Weimar Republic instituted compulsory gun registration. Every German had to report gun ownership to the state.

This was apparently no big deal at first, when the moderate Weimar Republic was still the ruling government in Germany. But then the Nazis took power and used the gun registry to identify and move against political opponents.

Don’t say it couldn’t happen here. So many are ready to throw the Bill of Rights out the window in pursuit of Socialism. So many others are resigned to abdicate their liberties quietly rather than speaking up or defending them. There is no reason in the world it could not happen here.

History has proven repeatedly that a disarmed populace is at the mercy of whoever seizes the government. And the same evil which leads some persons to murder others can fill the heart of governing officials too. When it does, and the power of the State turns against its own people, the results are horrific.

Once we surrender our God-given rights to possessing effective weapons, there is no going back.

Look elsewhere besides gun control. Look to promoting virtue, respect, honor, love, and self-discipline. Look to restoring the Christian faith, sincere prayer and repentance to public life in this country. And look to parents instilling their own children with the tools necessary to live healthy, well-adjusted, and appropriately, rather than abdicating their responsibilities.

But do not give the Progressives what they have been clamoring for in gun control for the past century. We know Progressives only want gun control so they can control us more broadly.

The core thought here was the core thought there.

Let me ask you. Why were the Nazis so evil? Were they just cartoonishly delighted in being bad? The answer is a resounding “no.” On the contrary, the Nazis thought they were doing the best thing in the world. They thought they were saving the world.

And the fundamental reason why the Nazis thought they were permitted to commit mass murder and genocide is the same fundamental reason, at its heart, why Progressives want to take away our guns, defend and subsidize abortion, promote socialized medicine, and all the rest.

The core thought here was the core thought there: that the State is ultimately responsible for the collective, and decides in a moral vacuum what is expedient, and who should live and die based on the needs of the many rather than on universal standards of justice and truth. In short, both Nazi Germany and Progressive Americans believe that the State gets to play God and say what is good and evil, and dictate even the most intimate parts of our lives for us

[voyager9 3,434]

Suit filed against NJ

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/11/saf-defense-distributed-seek-temporary-restraining-order-against-n-j-atty-general/

BELLEVUE, WA – -(AmmoLand.com)- The Second Amendment Foundation and Defense Distributed filed a motion in federal court in Texas seeking a temporary restraining order and preliminary injunction against New Jersey Attorney General Gurbir Grewal to prevent enforcement of a new law that they believe is a direct infringement of their First Amendment rights.

[njJoniGuy 2,131]

http://jpfo.org/articles-2018/pogrom-1938-cause.htm?awt_l=Bs5ci&awt_m=Ip6vbdgS1lZn_P

What Truly Caused the Pogrom of 1938

By Gary Gindler. November 9th, 2018
Article Source

Everyone knows what happened 80 years ago, November 9-10, 1938 in Germany. The unprecedented pogrom of the Jews got the name Kristallnacht -- "Night of Broken Glass." Today, we are well aware of the approximate number of murdered Jews, destroyed businesses, and burned synagogues. The formal reason for the pogrom was the murder of the German diplomat Ernst vom Rath in Paris by the Jewish teenager Herschel Grynszpan on November 7.

Unfortunately, few people know about the true causes of the pogrom.

Who created the conditions under which a mass pogrom of Jews in the Third Reich could even take place?

After the murder of the German diplomat, the propaganda minister, Joseph Goebbels, announced that neither the German government nor the ruling National Socialist Workers Party (NSDAP, AKA Nazi) would organize any protests in this regard. Goebbels knew what was going to happen. The government of Nazi Germany, although not formally involved in the detailed organization of the Kristallnacht, for several years was doing everything possible to make such a pogrom.

Since taking power in 1933, the Nazis had tightened the existing gun control laws. All German citizens, including Jews, were required to register their weapons, and for every firearm purchase, they must obtain a special permit from the authorities. In September 1935, all Jews were stripped of German citizenship. All Jews, without exception, were declared "untrustworthy" and deprived of most civil rights. Then, starting in December 1935, the Jews of Germany lost the opportunity to buy firearms and ammunition, but the Nazis had not yet executed a widespread confiscation of the existing weapons and ammunition.

Finally, in March 1938, a new gun control law was passed in Germany. In this law, the only mention of Jews was in the part that declared a total ban on Jews from participating in the production and trade of firearms and ammunition. However, this law, on the one hand, lifted restrictions of the possession of firearms by members of all Nazi-connected organizations (such as the NSDAP, the SA, and the Hitler Youth) and on the other hand prohibited the possession of firearms by all "untrustworthy" and those persons "relieved of their civil rights." By the law of 1935, not only Jews, but also all political opponents of the Nazi regime, as well as Gypsies and the homeless, were treated as "untrustworthy."

Due to the combined application of the laws of the Third Reich of 1935 and 1938, the confiscation of all firearms from German Jews was categorically legalized.

As a result, a massive (and effective) campaign for the confiscation of weapons had begun, and in many regions of Germany, the Jews were wholly disarmed in just six months -- by November 1938. For example, the day before the pogrom, on November 8, 1938, the New York Times published an article reported that the head of the Berlin police noted with satisfaction that practically all firearms from Berlin Jews had already been taken. The Nazis' sequester was effective because law-abiding German Jews registered all their weapons, as the law required. As a result, the addresses of the Jewish owners of the firearms and the details of the weapons in question were known to the authorities in advance.

There is every reason to believe that the catalyst was not the murder of the third secretary of the German embassy in Paris, but rather a series of articles printed in the German morning newspapers on November 9, 1938. Their reports about the practical completion of the seizure of weapons from Jews served as a trigger for the pogrom.

The killing of a minor diplomat cannot drive the whole country to a bloody massacre, but a guaranteed absence of armed resistance certainly can.

The collection of firearms from the Jews from March to November 1938 was not the beginning, but the end of the Nazi policy of complete disarmament of the Jews. The seizure of weapons began several months after the Nazis came to power, although at first, this was not widespread, because in 1933, it was a question of impounding only the army-grade weapons. Indicative is the rummage of Albert Einstein's house in March 1933 on the grounds that "Professor Einstein has a weapons depot at home." At the time of the search, Einstein was not at home (he was outside Germany), and they found no weapons in the house of the physicist-pacifist.

The day after the start of the pogrom, on November 10, the German government decided to suppress the initiative from the rioters. SS head Heinrich Himmler announced that the refusal to surrender weapons by Jews would be punished with 20 years' imprisonment in concentration camps. As a result, tens of thousands of Jews were arrested and thrown into concentration camps. To this day, nobody knows which of them actually refused to hand over legally acquired guns and which simply fell victim to the circumstances.

Also, the police received clear instructions on what can be allowed during the pogrom and what should not be allowed. For example, businesses owned by Jews could be shattered and destroyed (but not set on fire), while looting was prohibited. Foreigners (including Jews) should be protected. Businesses that belonged to non-Jews should be preserved in every way possible, and "spontaneous mass demonstrations" should not be hindered.

Two days after the beginning of the pogrom, on November 11, 1938, the government of the Third Reich made its final point on this issue. Jews were deprived of the right to hold firearms or any weapon whatsoever or any ammunition. This final point was the beginning of the "final solution of the Jewish question" in the Third Reich.

During the pogrom in Germany, 80 years ago many more Jews perished than in the recent pogrom in Pittsburgh. However, these two events, separated by decades, are united by one thing -- National Socialism.

Both the Nazi government and the lone American neo-Nazi had the same goal. The well known policy on gun control by the American socialists, including the idiotic Gun Free Zones, leads to the same result as the policy of the German National Socialists. It promotes the disarmament of law-abiding American citizens similarly to how the Nazi policy led to the disarming of the Jews. Consequently, many Jews (not only in America) for some reason forgot that the Third Reich is long gone, and it is no longer necessary to obey the Nazi laws on the disarmament of Jews.

Also, the de facto disarmament of American citizens is contrary to the de jure Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

The pogrom in Germany was stopped on the evening of November 10, 1938 by order of Goebbels. Should the Americans wait and hope that some high-ranking bureaucrat will stop another Jewish pogrom, or will we stop them by using our legal rights and legal means?

Gary Gindler, Ph.D., is a conservative blogger at Gary Gindler Chronicles. Follow him on Twitter.

[DirtyDigz 1,811]

SAF and Defense Distributed (sans Cody Wilson) seek an injunction against NJ AG (to prevent enforcement of law preventing publication of 3D gun plans):

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/11/saf-defense-distributed-seek-temporary-restraining-order-against-n-j-atty-general/

Quote

BELLEVUE, WA – -(AmmoLand.com)- The Second Amendment Foundation and Defense Distributed filed a motion in federal court in Texas seeking a temporary restraining order and preliminary injunction against New Jersey Attorney General Gurbir Grewal to prevent enforcement of a new law that they believe is a direct infringement of their First Amendment rights.

On Thursday, New Jersey Gov. Phil Murphy signed Senate Bill 2465, which is specifically aimed at censoring SAF and Defense Distributed, violating their First Amendment rights under color of law. During a press conference, Grewal acknowledged that this new measure was designed to prevent publication of instruction codes that would explain how to produce a firearm with a three-dimensional printer. ...

 

[Indianajonze 379]

On 11/11/2018 at 9:20 PM, bennj said:

For sure Maks, someone like targetsportsusa or sgammo could eventually just say the heck with it, screw NJ. Ironically, my wife and I were just looking at condos for sale in a southern free state.

not so easy when you find your client base shrinking. it used to be only 2-3 states they couldn't ship to. have you seen the list lately? at some point they're just as likely to say, the heck with it, we're shipping to nj anyway

[Maksim 1,504]

2 hours ago, Indianajonze said:

not so easy when you find your client base shrinking. it used to be only 2-3 states they couldn't ship to. have you seen the list lately? at some point they're just as likely to say, the heck with it, we're shipping to nj anyway

Depends on the size of your company and whether you want to risk losing it all.

Again, there is the cost of compliance vs opportunity costs.  I think companies will either comply (larger) or won't ship.

Smaller companies who ignore the laws will be made an example out of once they are found out about.

Look at the bump stock thing... AG's contacted manufacturers and got lists of buyers in their state. (IIRC).

[Redlines 202]

On 11/11/2018 at 9:36 PM, Sniper22 said:

Interesting, it's been years since I bought handgun ammo in this state, but when I did, none of the personal information was collected from me. Do they consider copying your FID number adequate, because that was the only thing recorded?

Tha aholes at Heritage Guild want you to also sign the book after you put your name and ID number on the book.

[345Sire 158]

On 11/10/2018 at 7:09 PM, njJoniGuy said:

The next step in the Progressive Plan of the Glorious Peoples Republik of Nazi Jersey will be to limit the amount of ammo one can purchase over a period of a time. You'll be required to account for (and turn in to an appropriate authority) your spent brass so they know you're not hoarding ammo for illicit purposes.

The end game is to totally disarm the non-LEO/Military populace of this state. It will be a shining example for the rest of the nation.

You really need to give them more ideas? Don't want to leave it up to them to imagine worse ones on their own? ( I'm sure they would have, not your fault)

That ones as scary as any I have heard.

[45Doll 5,873]

Well, here's the House version of banning AR and similar builds, depending on how you read it.

Or how the right or wrong judge interprets it.

[BobA 1,235]

We really, really, really need for this to get up to a conservative Supreme Court. Really. 

[Regular Guy 264]

4 hours ago, BobA said:

We really, really, really need for this to get up to a conservative Supreme Court. Really. 

Yeah and we need this immediately or sooner.  This state is out of control.  Why is there not a process for the Federal Gov to take over the state when the state government decides to blatantly disregard federal laws?  They harbor illegal aliens, who can now get state funds to go to college, thanks to the over-taxed tax payers, while citizens have to pay full price (how is that not treason?) They just let the one guy out of jail instead of reporting him to ICE.  He promptly took full advantage of his new freedom and opportunity to reform and/or educate himself and started a new career in slaughtering people in Missouri.  Now they want to legalize marijuana which is federally illegal, probably in the hopes that everyone gets doped up and doesn't pay attention to them taking away more civil rights, violating more constitutional rights, squandering more tax money and making everyone subjects to the crown.  I'm surprised they haven't made it illegal to move out of the state.  Look at the law for drivers licenses.  When someone gets a license who is under 18, NJ law says it's illegal to drive in another state with that license until they are 18.  Excuse me, but who do you think you are to tell someone what they can or can't do in another state?  This state keeps trying to dominate any aspect of peoples existence and it must be stopped.  End rant.