gun lockers vs. safes

[Screwball 483]

Houlton, Maine?
Went there last year....nice place, but a little remote

That’s why they are giving me a bonus each year for three years.

It’s less remote than the eight stations Border Patrol offered. Lordsburg, NM... I’ll give another Tremors reference... Perfection!

[JackDaWack 2,895]

9 hours ago, capt14k said:

Someone with a prybar and hammer can open the $1,500 gun safe just as easily.

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You're either not buying the right safe or not installing it correctly if someone is prying open a $1,500 dollar safe of medium size "as easily". At that price point, they should be cutting it open if its a small- medium sized safe, or at the very least have to work for a couple hours to pry it. 

 

3 hours ago, myhatinthering said:

guys, opening a safe really isn't that hard.  One of our members has a family member that had thieves used a hammer to open it.  As for fireproofing, nothing is really fireproof as the contents won't survive long to have the fire put out in 90% of the time.  All a safe does is give some comfort, provide a reasonable deterrent to a 'fast thief' and very limited fire protection

at least the safes we buy.......

What safe was it? I wouldn't consider a cheap gun safe to be a safe at all. And cheap isn't a price thing... all you need to look for is wall and door construction, bolt size location and engagement. Everything else prevents a drill/cutting attack. 

 

https://www.steelwatergunsafes.com/product/steelwater-xtreme-duty-2-hr-fire-hd593024/

I would LOVE to see someone open that with just a hammer, I would be still impressed if someone managed to pry open a 9gauge steel door standing up. EVEN if you managed to pry one side of the door, you will have to pry the other 2 with locking bolts on top and bottom.... You can check out thier video's that are pretty convincing.

 

[myhatinthering 462]

19 minutes ago, JackDaWack said:

You're either not buying the right safe or not installing it correctly if someone is prying open a $1,500 dollar safe of medium size "as easily". At that price point, they should be cutting it open if its a small- medium sized safe, or at the very least have to work for a couple hours to pry it. 

 

What safe was it? I wouldn't consider a cheap gun safe to be a safe at all. And cheap isn't a price thing... all you need to look for is wall and door construction, bolt size location and engagement. Everything else prevents a drill/cutting attack. 

 

https://www.steelwatergunsafes.com/product/steelwater-xtreme-duty-2-hr-fire-hd593024/

I would LOVE to see someone open that with just a hammer, I would be still impressed if someone managed to pry open a 9gauge steel door standing up. EVEN if you managed to pry one side of the door, you will have to pry the other 2 with locking bolts on top and bottom.... You can check out thier video's that are pretty convincing.

 

Lol...love posts like this.    go do some research and then come back and discuss this please. I have neither the time or inclination it's like dealing with my fucking kid in the sixth grade who thinks he knows everything respectfully

[W2MC 1,699]

1 hour ago, Screwball said:

 

That’s why they are giving me a bonus each year for three years.

It’s less remote than the eight stations Border Patrol offered. Lordsburg, NM... I’ll give another Tremors reference... Perfection!

 

Are you doing the move to maine....we'll pay you to move here deal?

 

[Screwball 483]

Are you doing the move to maine....we'll pay you to move here deal?

 

What?

 

I got the first part of the question. Yep, going up there in April for two weeks, then down to Georgia (FLETC) until end of August.

[W2MC 1,699]

oops....sorry.  Its VERMONT that is paying people to move there

https://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/story/news/2018/06/04/want-10-k-incentive-what-know-vermont-before-you-move/663676002/

[JackDaWack 2,895]

2 hours ago, myhatinthering said:

Lol...love posts like this.    go do some research and then come back and discuss this please. I have neither the time or inclination it's like dealing with my fucking kid in the sixth grade who thinks he knows everything respectfully

Don't post a response if you "don't have the time or inclination" You sound like a child, or maybe just a stubborn adult who thinks HE is always right. 

I'm interested in the research you have performed that would lead a person to break into a 100% 9 gauge thick constructed safe with a hammer, upright. Thats including 1/ 1/2 live bolts on all sides. Im sure that just sounds retarded to most tho.

Actually, why don't you even find a video of someone prying open a "decent" safe, that is upright. With your vast research and claims of how easy it is to break a safe open, that really shouldn't be hard. 

i really hope people don't take your stupid advice and buy gun cabinets because they think they are just as easily broken into as a real safe installed correctly. 

 

 

 

 

[capt14k 2,052]

Don't post a response if you "don't have the time or inclination" You sound like a child, or maybe just a stubborn adult who thinks HE is always right. 
I'm interested in the research you have performed that would lead a person to break into a 100% 9 gauge thick constructed safe with a hammer, upright. Thats including 1/ 1/2 live bolts on all sides. Im sure that just sounds retarded to most tho.
Actually, why don't you even find a video of someone prying open a "decent" safe, that is upright. With your vast research and claims of how easy it is to break a safe open, that really shouldn't be hard. 
i really hope people don't take your stupid advice and buy gun cabinets because they think they are just as easily broken into as a real safe installed correctly. 
 
 
 
 

I'm sorry Jack but you are wrong starts at 2:30 Liberty Centurian "Premium" safe.

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[JackDaWack 2,895]

Was I supposed to watch the video sideways?

There is no reason a thief should easily be able to get your safe on its side, and you can easily get a better safe for the money. 

I'm not saying you cant get into one, but a good safe under 2k like the one i posted can be had that will have the potential to stop a pry attack when standing. 

To me, the safe worth purchasing has good pry attack resistance when secured to the floor and a wall. If you even place it strategically you can offer little to no leverage on the door joints. Once you get into good fireproofing, drill and cut resistance it's too expensive to justify unless youre holding gold or something. 

 

[capt14k 2,052]

Was I supposed to watch the video sideways? There is no reason a thief should easily be able to get your safe on its side, and you can easily get a better safe for the money. 

I'm not saying you cant get into one, but a good safe under 2k like the one i posted can be had that will have the potential to stop a pry attack when standing. 

To me, the safe worth purchasing has good pry attack resistance when secured to the floor and a wall. If you even place it strategically you can offer little to no leverage on the door joints. Once you get into good fireproofing, drill and cut resistance it's too expensive to justify unless youre holding gold or something. 

 

 

 

You do realize composite means gypsum board. Steel Water uses 14 or 12 guage steel. And 2 or 3 layers of fireboard. Again that is sheetrock. They are also made in China. No thanks.

 

One bolting safe to wood floor and wood wall isn't going to do much if someone who knows what they are doing wants to knock it over to pry in. Two I would use a plasma cutter to cut into the safe rather than wasting energy prying. Couldn't find many videos but the one below a kid with a cheap plasma cutter cut into an old school real safe. Took another hour and half to get through concrete. How long do you think gypsum board would take to get through.

 

 

 

 https://youtu.be/9npSxELHxGo

 

 

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[capt14k 2,052]

Or spend $8 at harbor freight and cut into the $1,500 safe. Though plasma cutter would be much faster. Notice the sheetrock.

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[45Doll 5,873]

Any safe or RSC only stops smash and grab burglars. For anyone more determined you must have an alarm system so they don't have time to work.

I checked out this guy's website. He does have some interesting products using layered steel walls filled with concrete composite. 

[JackDaWack 2,895]

2 hours ago, capt14k said:

 

You do realize composite means gypsum board. Steel Water uses 14 or 12 guage steel. And 2 or 3 layers of fireboard. Again that is sheetrock. They are also made in China. No thanks.

 

One bolting safe to wood floor and wood wall isn't going to do much if someone who knows what they are doing wants to knock it over to pry in. Two I would use a plasma cutter to cut into the safe rather than wasting energy prying. Couldn't find many videos but the one below a kid with a cheap plasma cutter cut into an old school real safe. Took another hour and half to get through concrete. How long do you think gypsum board would take to get through.

 

 

 

https://youtu.be/9npSxELHxGo

 

 

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I don't really understand what the malfunction here is with your understanding of what I have spoken to. The safe I listed is 9gauge steel, and literally spoke to pry attack. 

You clearly need to move the goal post just to prove a point, or your not even reading what im saying. 

This conversation just went from it's easy to open a safe with a hammer to, ya know I would just break out the plasma cutter. 

[Zeke 5,504]

21 minutes ago, 45Doll said:

Any safe or RSC only stops smash and grab burglars. For anyone more determined you must have an alarm system so they don't have time to work.

I checked out this guy's website. He does have some interesting products using layered steel walls filled with concrete composite. 

Layers of deterrence.. but it’s always just a deterrent.

[Sniper 6,372]

54 minutes ago, 45Doll said:

Any safe or RSC only stops smash and grab burglars. For anyone more determined you must have an alarm system so they don't have time to work.

Exactly what I've been saying. Anyone determined will get your guns. The key is to slow them down or put up layers of deterrents, which might make them think twice.

Plus, putting in a conventional gun safe that screams "There's guns in here" just like a billboard just opens yourself up to issues. I can remember when we were house shopping, and going into a house for sale and seeing a traditional gun safe in the guy's closet. Gee, I wonder what was in it??? If I was really determined, I know exactly where to go in the future to pick up some new toys.

What do you think a service tech is thinking when he comes over to service your HVAC system, and sees a HUGE visible gun safe in the basement? Or a plumber comes by to fix a water leak in the basement? How about the appliance kid delivering a new washer?

Any chance they might spread the word to some of their nefarious friends?

So, this is why I recommend "Hiding in plain sight", and getting gun storage that doesn't LOOK like gun storage. This way, anyone wandering around doesn't get curious.

You need MULTIPLE layers of deterrence.

1) A large dog.

2) Good locks and secure doors.

3) Audible alarm system.

4) Video security system.

5) Fire and theft insurance.

6) Firearms stored in multiple locations - I'm not a "all my eggs in one basket" type of a guy.

Bottom line, make it difficult for a potential thief, and you increase the odds in your favor.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

I would add, if you have tools, keep your box locked. Don't help them get in.

For me, it's impossible to hide in plain sight, while the safe is hidden, my workbench and relaoding space is not. But like you said, the dogs, cameras and security system provides enough layers of protection.

I'm working on closing that space off.

There is nothing more vulnerable than selling a house... But you can put a safe somewhere 99% of people will never see.

[Sniper 6,372]

12 minutes ago, JackDaWack said:

But you can put a safe somewhere 99% of people will never see.

If I had to take a random guess, This would be what I think we would see in many basements or closets of members here:

 

Or this:

 

Kinda seems pretty obvious what's in there, right? I doubt anyone would think there's canned emergency food stored in there. Or office supplies....

 

 

[JackDaWack 2,895]

I structured that sentence poorly.

You can't avoid someone seeing a safe when selling a house, there isnt much to do when someone is looking over every inch.

BUT, the other times someone may come to do some work in the house, it can be hidden.. My wife tried to make me put it in the electrical room in the basement, NOPE! Sure enough 2 weeks after moving in the cable guy was in there running new lines. Our oil tank is in there too, which will be inspected from time to time.  

[Sniper 6,372]

5 minutes ago, JackDaWack said:

BUT, the other times someone may come to do some work in the house, it can be hidden..

Hidden is a good thing.

So give me some ideas on where someone could hide a safe the size I posted above, where general visitors or tradesman wouldn't see them when doing typical tasks.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

 

Anywhere a typical visitor or tradesman wouldn't need to go. Personally, I believe a safe should be anchored into concrete, so that would be a basement closet with no utilities, and a lock on the door to keep someone from snooping. You can even place a security sensor on the door and program a setting for it.

It can be hard after the fact, but when i bought my home that was something I was looking for. 

[capt14k 2,052]

I thought discussion was whether gun safe for $1,500 is any better than stack on. Not worth arguing over your money your items. I prefer vault with solid filled concrete with rebar and steel plate. I just need to upgrade door next.

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[capt14k 2,052]

Any safe or RSC only stops smash and grab burglars. For anyone more determined you must have an alarm system so they don't have time to work.

I checked out this guy's website. He does have some interesting products using layered steel walls filled with concrete composite. 

The guy in the last video? I saw that video. Seemed a much better option and unlike others linked not Made in China

 

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[JackDaWack 2,895]

You can look back at what i quoted you on. I argued a $1500 well purchased and installed safe would be harder to pry open than a stack on gun cabinet. Im not looking to beat a dead horse here, you can look back at the discussion.  

[capt14k 2,052]

You can look back at what i quoted you on. I argued a $1500 well purchased and installed safe would be harder to pry open than a stack on gun cabinet. Im not looking to beat a dead horse here, you can look back at the discussion.  

Yes harder still Made in China gypsum board for $1,500

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[JackDaWack 2,895]

4 minutes ago, capt14k said:

The guy in the last video? I saw that video. Seemed a much better option and unlike y others linked not Made in China

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At the end of the day, they are all trying to sell their product. If you have the hour to cut open a 9gauge safe, you have all the time in the world to break open anything. There is a reason these marketing teams all throw the safes on their side to pry them open, it wouldn't be good marketing if no one could open either safe by attempting to pry it open right side up. And how do you get someone to buy that 3,000 dollar liberty safe that really doesn't offer more protection?

[capt14k 2,052]

At the end of the day, they are all trying to sell their product. If you have the hour to cut open a 9gauge safe, you have all the time in the world to break open anything. There is a reason these marketing teams all throw the safes on their side to pry them open, it wouldn't be good marketing if no one could open either safe by attempting to pry it open right side up. And how do you get someone to buy that 3,000 dollar liberty safe that really doesn't offer more protection?

I agree. I just wish more people would take notice of Chinese made and Buy American, Canadian, German or even Japanese. Nothing made in China is made well and it only hurts Americans to buy their junk. If companies that make their products in China are blackballed manufacturing jobs will come back to America. Imagine if we had to ramp up manufacturing today like we did during WWII. We couldn't.

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[JackDaWack 2,895]

1 hour ago, capt14k said:

I agree. I just wish more people would take notice of Chinese made and Buy American, Canadian, German or even Japanese. Nothing made in China is made well and it only hurts Americans to buy their junk. If companies that make their products in China are blackballed manufacturing jobs will come back to America. Imagine if we had to ramp up manufacturing today like we did during WWII. We couldn't.

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No arguments there, i only used that one because it was something that hit the price range and could do a good job on smash and grab. But you will be spending double the money for similar Specs, obviously for the better materials and workmanship.

My original stack on gun safe which holds ammo now, was delivered with rust on the inside hinge welds.... 

 

[capt14k 2,052]

No arguments there, i only use that one because it was something that hit the price range and could do a good job on smash and grab. But you will be spending double the money for similar Specs, obviously for the better materials and workmanship.
My original stack on gun safe which holds ammo now, was delivered with rust on the inside hinge welds.... 
 

Don't get me wrong I think Stack-On is crap too. Also likely Made in China. That's why I recommended old school US Military Surplus Vidmar or Lista. Today Vidmar is probably made in China too so new wouldn't be any good. Lista is not made in China, at least not last I checked, but is crazy expensive new.

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[10X 3,296]

On 11/26/2018 at 9:56 PM, Sniper22 said:

Does keeping the stuff away from the wife count too?

 

The late, great outdoor writer Patrick McManus addressed the problem of getting more guns past the wife.

You need an expanding gun cabinet.

**********************************

HOW TO BUY A GUN…Without Your Wife Finding Out

Most people think of gunrunning as a foreign adventure in thriller novels. My gunrunning, though, is a domestic foray through the home to get a new gum past my wife.

By Patrick F. McManus (1984)


Hubert, a young married fellow of my acquaintance, confided in me the other day that he and his wife had just had their first quarrel. .

“Oh yeah?” I said. “What about?” “About practically nothing,” he said. “I’ve been needing a new rifle, so I went out and bought one and took it home to show Joyce. Well, if she didn’t hit the ceiling! Mad? Whew! Can you believe that?”

“That was dumb, Hubie,” I said. “Risking your marriage over a new gun. I thought you were smarter that that.”

“I shouldn’t have bought the gun, huh?”

“Of course you should have bought the gun. You needed it, didn’t you? You just shouldn’t have shown the gun to Joyce. Have a little consideration for her feelings, Hubie. Wives have feeling too, you know. The only decent thing for a husband to do is to sneak the new gun into the house. Learn to sneak, man learn to sneak.”

“Really?” Hubie said. “I didn’t know.” During my talk with Hubie, it occurred to me that there are probably many other young married hunters out there who are equally in need of marriage counseling as it relates to wives and new guns. In the interest of averting as much marital discord in the hunting fraternity as possible, I have put together the following primer on strategies and tactics for bringing home a new gun.

First of all, let us consider the psychology of the young wife as it pertains to her husband’s guns. It is important to note that the first gun the husband brings home is greeted with considerable enthusiasm by the spouse, and she may even brag about it to her friends: “Fred bought a new gun the other day to hunt elk and doves and things with,” she will say. Of course Fred must then explain that the gun is limited to hunting elk or deer. For hunting doves he needs a shotgun, he tells her.

“Why can’t you hunt doves with the same gun?” she says. “I really think you could if you wanted to.”

Fred then explains the difference between a rifle and a shotgun, and his wife finally agrees that he probably does need another gun.

Now that’s the typical situation the young hunter faces. He starts with a base of two guns, his wife granting him the benefit of the doubt that two guns are actually needed. After the second gun, the argument of needing a new gun will be dismissed by the wife with an upward roll of the eyeballs and a big sigh. We are talking only third gun here, remember, nothing more. If you’re just married, upward-rolling eyeballs and big sighs may seem formidable obstacles, but they’re really not that serious. Go buy the gun and bring it home. The eyeball-rolling and big sighs will let up after a few days. Now comes the biggie: The Fourth Gun!

With the mere mention of your need for a fourth gun, the wife skips right over the eyeball-rolling and big sighs and goes directly to a recital of your deficiencies of character, weird masculine quirks, and all sins committed to date. She will bring up such matters as saving for baby’s college education, the fact that she is still is wearing the clothes her parents bought for her in high school, the threatening note from the electric company, and so on.

The fourth gun is the tough one and, in the face of this spousal assault, there is always the temptation to sneak the fourth gun. That’s a mistake. Your wife’s knowing you purchase a fourth gun is essential to further development of your gun collection. Here’s why. After you bring the gun home and show it to your wife, she will shake her head and say, “I don’t know why you need all those guns.” Note that she doesn’t say “four guns” but rather the vague and general “all those guns.” Henceforth, she will think of your gun collection, not in terms of specific numbers, but as a single collective entity—all!

To thoroughly grasp this important concept, suppose your wife is dusting the gun case, “Him and all those guns,” she might say to herself, possibly with a very tiny tolerant smile. What she fails to notice is that there are now five guns in the case! Once the psychological barrier of the fourth gun is crossed, the gun collection can be expanded indefinitely without the wife noticing, provided the husband uses some common sense and doesn’t add too many guns at once. Two or three a year is about right, spaced at decent intervals.

There is one pitfall in this strategy—the gun cabinet itself. Although the wife will never bother to count the guns, she will notice that there are three empty slots in the cabinet. Therefore, you must make sure that there always three empty slots in the cabinet, even as your collection expands from four to sixty guns. If you plan on enlarging your collection, buy a gun cabinet that can be expanded by adding new sections so that there are always three or more empty slots. It works. My wife of 30 years told me the other day that she must be slowing down with age. “When we were first married,” she said, “I could dust that gun cabinet of yours in 10 seconds and now it takes me nearly half an hour.”

But how do you get all those guns into the house without your wife knowing, you ask. Actually, it is all right if every few years you simply walk into the house and say, “Look, dear, I bought a new gun.”

“Neato,” she will say, “I’m ecstatic. Now tell me, what did you want to buy another gun for when you already have all those guns? I’ll be you haven’t shot most of them in the past five years.”
Shoot them? Yes, a wife will actually say that. She will not be able to comprehend the fact that you needed the gun because you needed it. She will not understand that you need the guns just to be there, to be your guns, to be looked at and fondled from time to time. She will not be able to fathom that you need the guns even though you don’t need to shoot them. Tell her a gun collection is like wilderness. Even though we don’t use it all the time, we need to know it’s there. Probably it won’t do any good to tell her that, but it’s worth a try.

Stating the simple truth often works in explaining an occasional gun purchase to your wife. But why take unnecessary risk? Go with your best lie and get the gun stashed in your expandable gun cabinet as quickly as possible. 

Oddly enough, there are few really good lies for explaining the purchase of a new gun. There is the classic “A Fantastic Bargain,” of course, in which you tell your wife that the gun you just paid $300 for was on sale for $27.50. If her eyebrows shoot up in disbelief, you mention that three men in white coats showed up at the sport shop and led the manager away before he could slash the prices on the rest of the guns. Indeed, you say, you could have picked up five more brand-new guns for a total of $85, but you didn’t want to take excessive advantage of a crazy person.

The “Play On Her Sympathy Ploy” works well on young, inexperienced wives. It goes something like this: Rush into the house wiping tears of joy from your cheeks. Then cry out, “Look, Martha. Look! A man at the garage sold me this rifle. It’s identical to the one my grandfather gave me on his deathbed. Gramps said to me, ‘Boy, I’m givin’ you ol’ Gerty, here, because every time you shoot it, you will remember all the good times you and me had together.’ Oh, how I hated to sell that rifle to pay for Momma’s operation! But now I got one just like it! Or maybe it’s even the same rifle! Do you think it might actually be the same rifle, Martha?”

Warning! Don’t ever try the “Sympathy Ploy” on a wife you’ve been married to for longer than five years—unless you want to see a woman laugh herself sick. It’s a disgusting spectacle, I can tell you.

The “Fantastic Investment” lie will work on occasion, provided you lay the groundwork carefully in advance. “That ol’ Harvey Schmartz is a shrewd one,” you say. “He bought this .48-caliber Thumlicker for $600 as an investment. Three weeks later, he sold it for $87,000! Boy, I wish I could lay my hands on a .48-caliber Thumlicker. We’d sell it when I retire and buy a condo in Aspen and tour Europe with the change.”

After you’ve used up all your best lies, you are left with only one option. You must finally screw up your courage, square your jaw, and make up your mind that your going to do what you probably should have done all along—sneak the new guns into the house.

Here are some proven techniques for gun-sneaking:
• The Surprise Party. Your arrive home and tell your wife that you have to go to a surprise party for one of your hunting partners and that you picked up the special cake on your way home. “Oh, how cute!” she will exclaim. “A birthday cake shaped like a rifle!” This is also known as “The Gun-In-Cake Trick.”
• The Lamp. You buy a lamp shade and attach it to the muzzle of a new rifle. “Look, sweetheart,” you say to your spouse. “I bought a new lamp for the living room.” She gags. “Not for my living room.” She growls. “Take it to your den and don’t ever let me see that monstrosity again!” A variation of this ploy is to tie a picture wire to the new rifle and call it a wall hanging.
• The Loan. A hunting friend shows up at your door and hands you your new gun. “Thanks for loaning me one of your rifles,” he says. “I’ll do the same for you sometime.” Make sure your accomplice can be trusted, though. I tried “The Loan” with my friend Retch Sweeney one time and he didn’t show up at my door with the rifle for three weeks. He arrived on the day after hunting season, as I recall.
• Spare Parts. Disassemble the gun and carry it home in a shopping bag. Mention casually to the Mrs. that you picked up some odds and ends from the junk bin down at Joe’s Gunsmithing. Works like a charm! (By the way, does anyone know where the little wishbone-shaped gizmo goes on an automatic shotgun?)

[Zeke 5,504]

Too long!