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FreeNJ

The new gun law and transporting magazines

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General question, ANJRPC on its website has guidelines for transporting 15 round magazines out of state, or to people in state who can legally own them by the December 10th deadline. They suggest shipping through the mail would be the least likely way to bring on any legal problems, although the way they put that doesn't sound very reassuring. Apparently transporting them by car is now illegal and they suggest avoiding that. So if they are shipped through the mail would that bring about any legal issues with local NJ LE? I've heard that sealed first class U.S. mail packages can only be opened with a Warrant from a Federal judge and that would only be if a federal crime was suspected, and first class U.S. mail packages are protected by the 4th amendment. And if that's the case transporting the sealed package to the post office by car shouldn't be an issue either.

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32 minutes ago, FreeNJ said:

General question, ANJRPC on its website has guidelines for transporting 15 round magazines out of state, or to people in state who can legally own them by the December 10th deadline. They suggest shipping through the mail would be the least likely way to bring on any legal problems, although the way they put that doesn't sound very reassuring. Apparently transporting them by car is now illegal and they suggest avoiding that. So if they are shipped through the mail would that bring about any legal issues with local NJ LE? I've heard that sealed first class U.S. mail packages can only be opened with a Warrant from a Federal judge and that would only be if a federal crime was suspected, and first class U.S. mail packages are protected by the 4th amendment. And if that's the case transporting the sealed package to the post office by car shouldn't be an issue.

So what’s your question? You have all the legal information you need.

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48 minutes ago, FreeNJ said:

Apparently transporting them by car is now illegal and they suggest avoiding that.

Just FYI, it is not definitely not illegal in that it is not explicitly stated in statute.  It is vague and some say implied. But not explicit.  At least for another 30 hours. 

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If i put them in a USPS box and pay shippage, but don't ship them yet...when does the box become not covered by the 4th?? how long do i have to ship?

Im pretty sure that right to search only applies once the USPS has the actual package logged into their shipping system, and it applies to them as the carriers... where as UPS could open the box per their policies.

any box in your vehicle that is sealed is subjected to the 4th amendment with its limitations.... Anything in your possession for that matter.

I dont follow this line of reasoning, you and your possessions are always covered under the 4th. The USPS must adhere to those rights when they are in possession of your property. 

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4 minutes ago, Kawi7 said:

 I doubt very many USPS, UPS & Fedex personnel are aware of what a non compliant magazine is..

 

Exactly, and all he needs to do is throw a paperback book in the box with the mags, so when the clerk asks what's in the box, the response is "books and magazines". This is what ANJRPC recommended to do.

 

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25 minutes ago, FreeNJ said:

Can NJ LE come after you for shipping through the mail?

The whole purpose of the 180 day grace period was so everyone could take action on their mags, ie: mail them, take them for modification, turn them in, etc. Unfortunately, your 180 days are up on Monday.

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1 hour ago, JackDaWack said:

If i put them in a USPS box and pay shippage, but don't ship them yet...when does the box become not covered by the 4th?? how long do i have to ship?

Im pretty sure that right to search only applies once the USPS has the actual package logged into their shipping system, and it applies to them as the carriers... where as UPS could open the box per their policies.

any box in your vehicle that is sealed is subjected to the 4th amendment with its limitations.... Anything in your possession for that matter.

I dont follow this line of reasoning, you and your possessions are always covered under the 4th. The USPS must adhere to those rights when they are in possession of your property. 

According to someone I've spoken with who claims to have legal knowledge if the package is sealed, addressed to someone in another state and has first class postage attached then a Federal Warrant is required to open it even if it's sitting on your home. 

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14 minutes ago, FreeNJ said:

According to someone I've spoken with who claims to have legal knowledge if the package is sealed, addressed to someone in another state and has first class postage attached then a Federal Warrant is required to open it even if it's sitting on your home. 

So what’s your question?

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If your that paranoid about it, you could ship them USPS using their 24 hour kiosk before Monday. Then you’ve technically shipped them prior to the deadline.. 

It’s not like you’re shipping a crate of loaded mags.. Nobody is coming after you for shipping a box of mags to comply with the law, unless they want you for something else that’s criminal..

 

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33 minutes ago, FreeNJ said:

According to someone I've spoken with who claims to have legal knowledge if the package is sealed, addressed to someone in another state and has first class postage attached then a Federal Warrant is required to open it even if it's sitting on your home. 

but, wouldn't it require one regardless?

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15 minutes ago, Zeke said:

Idk. I always come here for legal advice first... then I sleep at a holiday inn, then I ask my lawyer.

this thread is now dumb! And I tried 

You do know we have lawyers here right? =)  No, for real... we do.  I know of at least 2 who regularly visit.   And stop being a douche to newer people... not everyone is versed with gun laws or comfortable around guns.  We do have 80% of the people who read these forums for advice, ARE NOT members. 

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3 hours ago, FreeNJ said:

General question, ANJRPC on its website has guidelines for transporting 15 round magazines out of state, or to people in state who can legally own them by the December 10th deadline. They suggest shipping through the mail would be the least likely way to bring on any legal problems, although the way they put that doesn't sound very reassuring. Apparently transporting them by car is now illegal and they suggest avoiding that. So if they are shipped through the mail would that bring about any legal issues with local NJ LE? I've heard that sealed first class U.S. mail packages can only be opened with a Warrant from a Federal judge and that would only be if a federal crime was suspected, and first class U.S. mail packages are protected by the 4th amendment. And if that's the case transporting the sealed package to the post office by car shouldn't be an issue either.

Thanks for joining the forum and asking your question.  I am sure many who read it will have similar questions.

I think to help, you need to look at it more broadly.

From the straight up legal perspective, I do not know whether a sealed package is fine or not, BUT as another member mentioned, there are 24/7 USPS kiosks or just drop it off in the post office box.  Generally, as long as you do, you are fine.  Alternative is, since it is the weekend, mail it USPS.  You can print label and drop it off OR just take it in a box to Staples.  They will give you a dropped off receipt showing Sunday.

Now... having said that, A LARGE percentage of the active posters have been here for more than 5 to 8 years, quite a few are approaching 10 years, and many if not most have shot for longer than that.  

Over the last 10 years, particularly under Murphy, gun owners have been under constant attacks.  Today, I would venture most just don't a crap anymore about the 10 round mag limits and during the last few months you likely had MANY boating accidents with everything lost in the water.  (not literally but you get the hint).  

Is it breaking the law?  Sure... but so is speeding. 

The odds of the police busting down your doors on Monday looking for 15 round mags is close to zero.  You do have to know though that IF you happen to do something else stupid and the police have to come down to your house or just happen to pull you over, smell drugs and decide to search your car... yeah... you will get charged.

Once you realize the difference between a 10 round mag and a 15 round mag is either a different spring, a rivet, or a piece of wood inside, the hole notion of low capacity magazines saving lives is a joke.

Welcome to the community.

Edit:  This is not legal advice, nor do I live in that forsaken state anymore... (although I can still smell the air and buy my gas there).

@SJG

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14 minutes ago, Maksim said:

You do know we have lawyers here right? =)  No, for real... we do.  I know of at least 2 who regularly visit.   And stop being a douche to newer people... not everyone is versed with gun laws or comfortable around guns.  We do have 80% of the people who read these forums for advice, ARE NOT members. 

Lol... I guess some disagree. But hey you don’t live here anymore. 

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Exactly, and all he needs to do is throw a paperback book in the box with the mags, so when the clerk asks what's in the box, the response is "books and magazines". This is what ANJRPC recommended to do.


Yep, that gets you out of everything... I got two Get Out of Jail Free cards in my Monopoly. Anyone have some interest in buying them?

Seriously, you either are compliant or not. There isn’t a way around it. If you have a reason not to get jammed up, then get them out tomorrow. If not, is what it is. You make your own bed, might have to lay in it one day.
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1 hour ago, JackDaWack said:

but, wouldn't it require one regardless?

Yes, but a federal Warrant is much more difficult to obtain, there would have to be probable cause that something in the package violates federal law. A firearms magazine wouldn't. So if it's a first class U.S. mail package sitting on your kitchen table at home, local enforcement can't touch it even if they have a warrant to search your home. Anyway, that's what I heard. A sealed 1st class U.S. postal package is protected by the 4th amendment.

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26 minutes ago, FreeNJ said:

Yes, but a federal Warrant is much more difficult to obtain, there would have to be probable cause that something in the package violates federal law. A firearms magazine wouldn't. So if it's a first class U.S. mail package sitting on your kitchen table at home, local enforcement can't touch it even if they have a warrant research your home. Anyway, that's what I heard. A sealed 1st class U.S. postal package is protected by the 4th amendment.

USPS operates under federal guidelines, they have federal officers. If they want to open it, then yes i would imagine you are correct. If the local police want to open it, they would get a warrant from who ever they normally do(county?). The package is not protected from state level authorities  and their jurisdictional powers if they believe there is something illegal within.

 

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@FreeNJ your overthinking this. Ship them out if you want to get them out of NJ. Many people shop illegal items in the mail every day and rarely anyone gets caught. 

However I'd recommend keeping them, keeping your mouth shut and joining a range in PA such as EFGA and use them on a regular basis. When I was a member of EFGA I met many NJ residents with 30 round mags in their ARs and AKs. 

No one is coming to raid all NJ gun owners homes looking for mags on the 10th. Hell I know of at least one town who have signed a pledge that they will not enforce any new unconstitutional gun laws (this was right before the presidential election) they presented it to the chief who then signed it and sent it to the DA. Their feelings have not changed. 

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I don't think having anything sealed in a package ready to be mailed would protect you if the police had a search warrant.  A warrant specifies the items that are being searched for.  Police can look anywhere these items could be.  If they could fit in a sealed package in a residence the police could search there.  If a sealed package would be exempt from a search criminals would have been doing that for years.

I retired after 30 years as a 1811/Criminal Investigator for a federal agency.  Local police who want to search a package in the custody of the Post Office aren't going to get anywhere unless they get the Postal Inspectors involved.  If there is a federal crime involved  they will be the ones to get the warrant.  The only exception is if the package is entering or leaving the country then CBP or HSI can search it without a warrant.

Local police do not go to a federal judge for a warrant unless they are on a federal task force like JTTF or a DEA drug task force and are cross designated as federal officers (TFOs).  If a federal officer or TFO is looking for a warrant they need to go to an Asst US Attorney first where it usually gets written up.  It needs to be for a federal crime.  The federal system has no interest in enforcing state law (although they could do so if they wanted to). Then it goes to a federal judge.  On weekends I have gone to vacation homes, boats, golf courses, parties, weddings, and other events to get the duty federal magistrate to sign the warrant.

I also think people are over thinking this. The only thing the post office ever asked me is if there was anything hazardous or liquid in the package.  The only problem I can see is if you take Nappen''s advice and claim "books and magazines" and take the lower (4th class?) rate for printed material.  I'm sure there's some kind of fine for that.

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37 minutes ago, GRIZ said:

I don't think having anything sealed in a package ready to be mailed would protect you if the police had a search warrant.  A warrant specifies the items that are being searched for.  Police can look anywhere these items could be.  If they could fit in a sealed package in a residence the police could search there.  If a sealed package would be exempt from a search criminals would have been doing that for years.

I retired after 30 years as a 1811/Criminal Investigator for a federal agency.  Local police who want to search a package in the custody of the Post Office aren't going to get anywhere unless they get the Postal Inspectors involved.  If there is a federal crime involved  they will be the ones to get the warrant.  The only exception is if the package is entering or leaving the country then CBP or HSI can search it without a warrant.

Local police do not go to a federal judge for a warrant unless they are on a federal task force like JTTF or a DEA drug task force and are cross designated as federal officers (TFOs).  If a federal officer or TFO is looking for a warrant they need to go to an Asst US Attorney first where it usually gets written up.  It needs to be for a federal crime.  The federal system has no interest in enforcing state law (although they could do so if they wanted to). Then it goes to a federal judge.  On weekends I have gone to vacation homes, boats, golf courses, parties, weddings, and other events to get the duty federal magistrate to sign the warrant.

I also think people are over thinking this. The only thing the post office ever asked me is if there was anything hazardous or liquid in the package.  The only problem I can see is if you take Nappen''s advice and claim "books and magazines" and take the lower (4th class?) rate for printed material.  I'm sure there's some kind of fine for that.

You know... Murphy would likely consider an unloaded magazine "hazardous"... and speaking of unloaded magazines... I have a letter from TSA somewhere when I forgot to take out some unloaded mags while flying out to USPSA nationals in Vegas.   PHL cops that were called thought it was funny and stupid (unloaded mags), the TSA lady... not so much. 

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15 hours ago, Sniper22 said:

The whole purpose of the 180 day grace period was so everyone could take action on their mags, ie: mail them, take them for modification, turn them in, etc. Unfortunately, your 180 days are up on Monday.

According to ANJRPC Monday the 10th is the last day to comply, so can they technically still be shipped on that day if someone chooses to have them transported out of state? I've heard others say the magazines would be illegal on the 10th.

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10 minutes ago, FreeNJ said:

According to ANJRPC Monday the 10th is the last day to comply, so can they technically still be shipped on that day if someone chooses to have them transported out of state? I've heard others say the magazines would be illegal on the 10th.

The grace period was 180 days, and the 10th is day 180, so my opinion is that you're good until 11:59PM on the 10th. On the 11th, at 12:01 AM, you're a felon.

Amazing what one day makes....

 

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