FreeNJ 8 Posted December 9, 2018 Link to article: https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2018/12/daniel-zimmerman/new-jersey-has-no-idea-how-to-enforce-its-10-round-magazine-limit-law/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sniper 6,372 Posted December 9, 2018 ...."Look for the same approach in New Jersey. Neither Governor Phil Murphy or AG Grewal has any interest in going door-to-door looking for 15-round magazines. And when the State Police’s Lt. Schafer says, “We will enforce the law of the state,” that means they’ll charge you if they happen find +10-round magazines in your car during a traffic stop. Or if someone breaks into your home and they happen to see an offending magazine when they investigate. So look for New Jersey’s gun owners to respond to their state’s latest Second Amendment infringement much as New Yorkers did. By flipping an invisible bird at the Governor and legislature and claiming all of their standard capacity magazines had been lost in an unfortunate series of tragic boating accidents. 4 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Screwball 483 Posted December 9, 2018 Lt Schafer is in the Public Information Bureau... he is answering a question, and isn’t really giving the 411 on that policy. I do know Lt Schafer (very good guy)... and he likely would research something if he knew he would be answering specific questions on a topic, but what else would you expect him to say in regards to that? “It isn’t conceivable to enforce this law, so have fun!” That’s like asking if they are going to pull every single person doing 66 and above on the Parkway over... would they say “yes” or that they will enforce the speed limit law of NJ? That was a very safe answer to give. Sorry, but while the author put together an interesting article, it really doesn’t stand by itself. Putting “Lt Schafer from the NJSP” sounds like he is getting info from the Firearms Unit. Just because they (NJSP and AG) didn’t say how they are going to enforce the law doesn’t necessarily mean they aren’t doing X, Y, or Z. That being said, I do doubt you are going to see Troopers going door to door, confiscating magazines. A better person to interview about it would be Grewal or Murphy... but they wouldn’t answer those question directly (they know the truth). 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Maksim 1,504 Posted December 9, 2018 10 minutes ago, Screwball said: Lt Schafer is in the Public Information Bureau... he is answering a question, and isn’t really giving the 411 on that policy. I do know Lt Schafer (very good guy)... and he likely would research something if he knew he would be answering specific questions on a topic, but what else would you expect him to say in regards to that? “It isn’t conceivable to enforce this law, so have fun!” That’s like asking if they are going to pull every single person doing 66 and above on the Parkway over... would they say “yes” or that they will enforce the speed limit law of NJ? That was a very safe answer to give. Sorry, but while the author put together an interesting article, it really doesn’t stand by itself. Putting “Lt Schafer from the NJSP” sounds like he is getting info from the Firearms Unit. Just because they (NJSP and AG) didn’t say how they are going to enforce the law doesn’t necessarily mean they aren’t doing X, Y, or Z. That being said, I do doubt you are going to see Troopers going door to door, confiscating magazines. A better person to interview about it would be Grewal or Murphy... but they wouldn’t answer those question directly (they know the truth). Spot on. As I previously said... boating accidents... lots of mags and guns sinking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BobA 1,235 Posted December 9, 2018 A wise old man said many moons ago on another thread: “I say again: for those who think the NJSP are going to goose step into their houses and toss their underwear drawer, use safe deposit boxes at the bank. If your bank doesn’t give you one merely for having an account then change banks. I’d be willing to bet the farm we’ll never hear of anyone getting busted just for having one of these evil devises in their homes. I’ll bet you’ll have a better chance of getting caught cheating on your taxes, stealing cable or spitting on the sidewalk on a Sunday in Trenton (true) before anyone gets charged with this crap.” 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Maksim 1,504 Posted December 9, 2018 9 minutes ago, BobA said: A wise old man said many moons ago on another thread: “I say again: for those who think the NJSP are going to goose step into their houses and toss their underwear drawer, use safe deposit boxes at the bank. If your bank doesn’t give you one merely for having an account then change banks. I’d be willing to bet the farm we’ll never hear of anyone getting busted just for having one of these evil devises in their homes. I’ll bet you’ll have a better chance of getting caught cheating on your taxes, stealing cable or spitting on the sidewalk on a Sunday in Trenton (true) before anyone gets charged with this crap.” unless you are beating your wife with that pistol. =) Serious discussion... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kawi7 52 Posted December 9, 2018 The short answer is the same way they enforced the 15 round limit 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Combat Auto 174 Posted December 9, 2018 From wiki: Broadly speaking, a risk assessment is the combined effort of 1. identifying and analyzing potential (future) events that may negatively impact individuals, assets, and/or the environment (i.e., risk analysis); and 2. making judgments "on the tolerability of the risk on the basis of a risk analysis" while considering influencing factors (i.e., risk evaluation).[1][2] Put in simpler terms, a risk assessment analyzes what can go wrong, how likely it is to happen, what the potential consequences are, and how tolerable the identified risk is.[ ...So, yes, the probability of getting caught is extremely low, but the penalty is extremely high. And if one is caught, the state may want to make an example of you. Money is one thing, but how tolerant are you and your family to jail time. For what 500$ or so worth of magazine, is it worth taking this risk, everyone can choose, but not something I would take on (If they come for our AR's, etc., in the years to come, that would be a different assessment, for a different time)...And lets be honest, hope I am wrong, but I doubt the Supreme's are going to take this case, and the likelihood of ever using these mags again (unless you move out) is very low. Ship them to a relative OOS or something (one that doesn't charge you 1.25$/month/mag-LOL!) eliminate the risk all together but still have a way to get them back in the small chance the law is overturned. 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Combat Auto 174 Posted December 9, 2018 7 minutes ago, Combat Auto said: Dup, apologies! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisJM981 924 Posted December 9, 2018 5 hours ago, Maksim said: unless you are beating your wife with that pistol. =) Serious discussion... Don't keep them in your safe or with your guns. If the police come to secure your firearms ( think Sean Moore situation, fire in the house, angry spouse filing for a temporary restraining order, etc.) don't have it(or them) there to find. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kawi7 52 Posted December 9, 2018 Several years ago my father unexpectedly came over to my home with an old army dufflbag that he found while cleaning out the attic. My parents were in the process of moving to a new house. The dufflebag had my full name and social security number stenciled on it (for those not in the know, the army made you do that with your social security number decades ago) He said look what I found in the attic. I opened the bag and found an LBE with two magazine pouches mixed in with some uniforms and other stuff.. In the mag pouches were 6 mags for an M16... 30 round mags that were left forgotten in his attic for about 30 years.. At least the 2 1911 mags found were legal... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BobA 1,235 Posted December 9, 2018 You know, I think we spent so much time over thinking this that we missed the obvious. If we found a trusted illegal alien in NJ to hold them all for us they'd be safe. Even if they were found there they'd be forgiven. And we'd all owe Murphy thanks for the free storage facility. 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kotkot 26 Posted December 9, 2018 this law stinks so badly it's not even funny...from legal point of view.. law says mags have to be permanently blocked, with epoxy, rivet and what. but there is no such thing as "permanent". what's the legal definition of "permanent" ?? I took all my 15 rounders to my cousin in PA, yep lucky me has relatives in PA who have no problem storing my stuff. while there.. we decided to take one of those Pinned and Epoxied blocked magazine that I purchased legally at Ottomanelli or anywhere else who sold blocked 15RD mags for AR. guess what.. it somewhat easily converted back to 30rd. so let's say you block your any mag to 10rd.. reality is that no matter how much epoxy you use, no matter how many rivets you use.. you can still convert it back to large cap. so how the fuck fucking Murphy's gang defines "Permanent" ??? and if you are in possession of that "blocked " magazine, what constitutes "permanently blocked" ? so if the guy/girl donno hammer from screwdriver they are OK.. but if guy also in possession of power drill and some basic tools.. he goes to jail? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voyager9 3,433 Posted December 9, 2018 4 minutes ago, kotkot said: so how the fuck fucking Murphy's gang defines "Permanent" ??? and if you are in possession of that "blocked " magazine, what constitutes "permanently blocked" ? Let’s be honest, the law is vague on purpose. That way the prosecutor can make a case-by-case decision to charge or not and we are always left in limbo as to compliance. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BobA 1,235 Posted December 9, 2018 Just now, voyager9 said: Let’s be honest, the law is vague on purpose. That way the prosecutor can make a case-by-case decision to charge or not and we are always left in limbo as to compliance. It's like that other one word definition they use in all laws and contracts - "reasonable". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scorpio64 5,147 Posted December 9, 2018 8 minutes ago, kotkot said: but there is no such thing as "permanent". what's the legal definition of "permanent" ?? dunno man, I tried like hell to open one of my epoxied and pinned PMags so I could stuff a 10 rd limiter in a 20 rd body. I ruined one trying, so I got rid of the ones I had and bought some 10s'. If there was a good way of converting the blocked 20/15s to 20/10s, I wish I had known. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kawi7 52 Posted December 9, 2018 5 minutes ago, BobA said: It's like that other one word definition they use in all laws and contracts - "reasonable". Reasonable = What they deem is reasonable, until a judge or jury states otherwise.. Same will apply to permanent.. Or maybe Reasonably Permantent... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voyager9 3,433 Posted December 9, 2018 31 minutes ago, BobA said: It's like that other one word definition they use in all laws and contracts - "reasonable". Or “shall not be infringed” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zeke 5,504 Posted December 9, 2018 11 minutes ago, voyager9 said: Or “shall not be infringed” Or “undue burden “ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voyager9 3,433 Posted December 9, 2018 9 minutes ago, Zeke said: Or “undue burden “ Agreed. Or “meatloaf” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kotkot 26 Posted December 9, 2018 55 minutes ago, Scorpio64 said: dunno man, I tried like hell to open one of my epoxied and pinned PMags so I could stuff a 10 rd limiter in a 20 rd body. I ruined one trying, so I got rid of the ones I had and bought some 10s'. If there was a good way of converting the blocked 20/15s to 20/10s, I wish I had known. we did ruined one, but than we figured out what held them together. second one was "fixed" in under 2 minutes. so my cousin now has perfectly functioning 30rd in PA. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kotkot 26 Posted December 9, 2018 1 hour ago, voyager9 said: Let’s be honest, the law is vague on purpose. That way the prosecutor can make a case-by-case decision to charge or not and we are always left in limbo as to compliance. ain't that the fucking truth. the whole purpose of this law is add another point of control over law abiding population. Molon Labe motherfuckers. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vladtepes 1,060 Posted December 9, 2018 1 hour ago, BobA said: It's like that other one word definition they use in all laws and contracts - "reasonable". I think in this situation there are going to be several layers of reasonable before you actually ended up in prison... so IF you made the effort to modify them to 10.. like if you actually did it.. I would be surprised if you ended up in prison.. even if it wasn't really permanent... first the LEO would have to think that the modification was not enough to be permanent.. I actually think this is where it would stop for more people.. I don't think a cop who comes across a mag.. that only holds 10 rounds is going to spend a whole lot of effort determining if its "permanent" enough.. unless of course someone is giving said cop a reason to try to find some way to bring you in.. if the mag only holds 10.. I think the cop would walk away.. then you will have more layers.. does the prosecutor even think its a reasonable case to run with? will a judge find your effort of permanency reasonable? there are a lot of people that need to come to the conclusion that you did not reasonably comply with the law.. and I find that unlikely.. lastly... IF someone made the effort to comply... and was still being charged.. and could find a good lawyer.. I think it would actually be GOOD for the cause... it would illustrate the unreasonable burden put onto normal lawful people by this law.. 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vladtepes 1,060 Posted December 9, 2018 4 hours ago, Combat Auto said: From wiki: Broadly speaking, a risk assessment is the combined effort of 1. identifying and analyzing potential (future) events that may negatively impact individuals, assets, and/or the environment (i.e., risk analysis); and 2. making judgments "on the tolerability of the risk on the basis of a risk analysis" while considering influencing factors (i.e., risk evaluation).[1][2] Put in simpler terms, a risk assessment analyzes what can go wrong, how likely it is to happen, what the potential consequences are, and how tolerable the identified risk is.[ ...So, yes, the probability of getting caught is extremely low, but the penalty is extremely high. And if one is caught, the state may want to make an example of you. Money is one thing, but how tolerant are you and your family to jail time. For what 500$ or so worth of magazine, is it worth taking this risk, everyone can choose, but not something I would take on (If they come for our AR's, etc., in the years to come, that would be a different assessment, for a different time)...And lets be honest, hope I am wrong, but I doubt the Supreme's are going to take this case, and the likelihood of ever using these mags again (unless you move out) is very low. Ship them to a relative OOS or something (one that doesn't charge you 1.25$/month/mag-LOL!) eliminate the risk all together but still have a way to get them back in the small chance the law is overturned. risk assessment is one of the things I do for my job.. and I agree with your assessment completely.. the probability of getting arrested is off the charts low.. but the impact to being arrested is off the charts high.. so for me personally... I would not accept the risk.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BobA 1,235 Posted December 9, 2018 4 minutes ago, vladtepes said: I think in this situation there are going to be several layers of reasonable before you actually ended up in prison... so IF you made the effort to modify them to 10.. like if you actually did it.. I would be surprised if you ended up in prison.. even if it wasn't really permanent... first the LEO would have to think that the modification was not enough to be permanent.. I actually think this is where it would stop for more people.. I don't think a cop who comes across a mag.. that only holds 10 rounds is going to spend a whole lot of effort determining if its "permanent" enough.. unless of course someone is giving said cop a reason to try to find some way to bring you in.. if the mag only holds 10.. I think the cop would walk away.. then you will have more layers.. does the prosecutor even think its a reasonable case to run with? will a judge find your effort of permanency reasonable? there are a lot of people that need to come to the conclusion that you did not reasonably comply with the law.. and I find that unlikely.. lastly... IF someone made the effort to comply... and was still being charged.. and could find a good lawyer.. I think it would actually be GOOD for the cause... it would illustrate the unreasonable burden put onto normal lawful people by this law.. I agree with this once the dust settles, In the beginning there be an example or two made though. BUT!, they actually have to find them under legal conditions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sniper 6,372 Posted December 9, 2018 38 minutes ago, vladtepes said: I think in this situation there are going to be several layers of reasonable before you actually ended up in prison... so IF you made the effort to modify them to 10.. like if you actually did it.. I would be surprised if you ended up in prison.. even if it wasn't really permanent... first the LEO would have to think that the modification was not enough to be permanent.. I actually think this is where it would stop for more people.. I don't think a cop who comes across a mag.. that only holds 10 rounds is going to spend a whole lot of effort determining if its "permanent" enough.. unless of course someone is giving said cop a reason to try to find some way to bring you in.. if the mag only holds 10.. I think the cop would walk away.. This is exactly what I believe. If someone made an effort to limit them to 10, the LEOs would be fine, and just walk away. How can they make a judgement call of what's "permanent"? 39 minutes ago, vladtepes said: there are a lot of people that need to come to the conclusion that you did not reasonably comply with the law.. and I find that unlikely.. True, the layers wouldn't be worth the time or money, just to jail someone for having a $15 "high capacity" mag in their possession. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kotkot 26 Posted December 9, 2018 15 minutes ago, Sniper22 said: 15 minutes ago, Sniper22 said: True, the layers wouldn't be worth the time or money, just to jail someone for having a $15 "high capacity" mag in their possession. are you trying to apply LOGIC to NJ legislature and judicial system?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
45Doll 5,873 Posted December 9, 2018 Want to stop some of these ridiculous gun laws? Why not try the French way? I can't believe the French have more giblets over gas than most Americans do over firearms. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zeke 5,504 Posted December 9, 2018 5 minutes ago, 45Doll said: Want to stop some of these ridiculous gun laws? Why not try the French way? I can't believe the French have more giblets over gas than most Americans do over firearms. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sniper 6,372 Posted December 9, 2018 3 hours ago, kotkot said: are you trying to apply LOGIC to NJ legislature and judicial system?? Ha Ha... yeah, I know... it's a long shot! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites