Fear Mongering?

[Sota 1,191]

Mr. Seidman, you should definitely come out to our next Shotgun Shootout.  

[Maksim 1,504]

18 minutes ago, JasonSeidman said:

Thank you. I had followed this forum on FB and when I replied to a post, an admin had asked me to join. Here I am apparently having picked a fight with the big cheese. 

 

Im sure us law shield is a good company, my comment is more because of how intertwined he is with them.  I have no dog in that fight, but I am a big supporter of the NRA. If you can go through them, I’d say that’s as good an option as any.

That would be me... and no, not picking a fight but rather because here you are, another attorney and I feel you rightly called his BS.

[Gunlawyernj 116]

31 minutes ago, sota said:

Mr. Seidman, you should definitely come out to our next Shotgun Shootout.  

Sounds good to me!  Though I may have to buy a new shotgun, as my mossberg shockwave isn’t a shotgun all, but a pistol gripped firearm I was able to buy without a permit to purchase. That’s to long of a discussion for 1210am

21 minutes ago, Maksim said:

That would be me... and no, not picking a fight but rather because here you are, another attorney and I feel you rightly called his BS.

Much appreciated. I think he thinks I picked a fight with him based on another post of mine in a FB 2a group, but when no one calls you out for a long period of time and someone finally does, it may be a little upsetting for him. 

[Maksim 1,504]

10 minutes ago, JasonSeidman said:

Sounds good to me!  Though I may have to buy a new shotgun, as my mossberg shockwave isn’t a shotgun all, but a pistol gripped firearm I was able to buy without a permit to purchase. That’s to long of a discussion for 1210am

Much appreciated. I think he thinks I picked a fight with him based on another post of mine in a FB 2a group, but when no one calls you out for a long period of time and someone finally does, it may be a little upsetting for him. 

Piss him off enough to report your to the BAR? =P lol

[Gunlawyernj 116]

7 minutes ago, Maksim said:

Piss him off enough to report your to the BAR? =P lol

He won’t have a reason, but I suppose he could try.   You tell me...

I am quite disheartened with some of the fear mongering going on right now and it’s at a full court press.  From threats of mass raids on those who own firearms capable of accepting “large capacity magazines,” to Murphy must conduct raids for fear of political retribution, to I’m facing 115 years in jail and a million in fines, to waking up today to an article posted speaking of searches of homes without probable cause (during a search for terrorist bombers), for reasons I’m not sure of, a few in the community are doing, in my opinion, a disservice to the 2a community. I’m not seeking to take away what they have done over time and for what they have done, I and all of us should be grateful for that. 

As we stand here, on the eve of many of our friends turning into criminals for doing nothing more than inaction, and we stand here having had our constitutional rights limited, illegally and against our will, I thought I’d offer another perspective.  A perspective on seeking to help some of us figure it out, and not scare some of us into hiding or moving out of state and reducing the size of the community here to support the second amendment. 

Full disclosure, I can’t call this legal advice as I don’t know all of your specifics, but I can offer some perspective and try and quell some of the fear that has been heightened over the last few days. That’s not to say there should be no fear, the government has just infringed on our constitutional rights, our governor is hostile to our cause, but the onslaught currently occurring, is making people think tomorrow is the day my local PD raids my home. 

About me: I’m a proud supporter of the second amendment, a criminal defense attorney, and a former Assistant Middlesex County Prosecutor who ran the county gang, gun, and drugs task force. At my time there, lawful gun owners were not the target of our investigations, that’s not to say some lawful gun owners didn’t do other nutty or illegal stuff, but we didn’t target them for being gun owners, they were targeted for drug dealing, illegal gun running, assault, etc. Those people we in no way assets to the second amendment cause. 

We, those of us on these discussion groups and forums, are among the most educated gun owners in the state. There are hundreds of thousands of gun owners in the state, but these Facebook groups and forums have 2,000 or 5,000 people participating in the discussion. Quite honestly, I’d expect Joe Schmo gun owner, who got a pistol after watching the expendables because it looks cool, and really has no idea about the mag ban or his second amendment rights, to run afoul of the law before any of us do. That said, I hope, that any person who unknowingly or mistakenly brings a “large capacity magazine” to a range or gun club, is told to take it home or throw it out, and not have the police called on them. I can’t imagine any range that did that would be in business long anyways.

I have a hard time with someone, especially someone knowledgeable, suggesting that the simple act of owning a gun that can accept large capacity magazines, is grounds for large scale raids.  That IS fear mongering.  Raids require search warrants. Search warrants require probable cause. Probable cause has to be determined by a judge, yes a N.J. judge, but a judge.  It’s not some willy nilly standard. There have to be proofs of the illegality, describe the items they are seeking, and enough facts, specific facts, to overbear your fourth amendment rights. I have participated in a large amount of search warrants, from the drafting of the affidavit to appearing with the officer in front of a judge, defending search warrants on motions to suppress, and challenging searches based on the fourth amendment. I would not approve an officer seeing a judge, nor would I ever expect a judge to approve a search warrant based on the following:

“John Doe is a resident of New Jersey.  In 2009, he purchased a Beretta 92fs, a 9 millimeter pistol.  That firearm is capable of accepting a magazine that contains more than 10 rounds. Based upon the previous, we believe that we have probable cause to believe that he has a large capacity magazine.”  

Even in N.J., that isn’t going to fly.  It’s probable cause to believe, not a hunch. Without more that’s simply a hunch. That isn’t to say that won’t be part of an application for a search warrant, but there must be more. Someone witnessing your large capacity magazine, posting photos of your large capacity magazines to social media, or possibly bragging about keeping them or using them could certainly further their quest to search a home. What i find sad, is with specific knowledge of what is required for a search warrant, people are still stoking the fires of fear regarding mass raids.

I don’t think anyone is actually facing 115 years in jail or a million in fines for their magazines. The N.J. sentencing laws would never allow that type of sentence, not would logic allow for it. The law prohibits the possession of magazines over 10 rounds just like it prohibits possessing hollow points outside of the limited exceptions. Have you ever heard, or do you think even this sad state would allow for punishment per bullet, a 50 round box allowing for a max sentence of 75 years or a super dangerous box of 525 .22’s allowing for a max sentence of 787 years in jail. Similarly, simple possession of 50 large capacity mags will not get you 75 years. Also, with very limited exception, fines other than mandatory ones are not doled out. I’d say I’ve seen 10 cases have discretionary fines in my career of thousands of cases in superior court, and never the maximum. That said, with no record and being a lawful gun owner, possession is a fourth degree crime, which means there is a presumption of non incarceration. Having no record, a person is more likely to have pretrial intervention or probation. I’m in no way saying I agree that it should be illegal, but likely punishment potential needs to be kept in perspective. 

A quick note on exigency and the article posted on the Boston bombing, though oddly making no mention of the bombing or the search being for the bombers. First, they asked for consent.  It’s not easy to say no, especially to highly armed officers in tactical gear, but it’s your right. Does anyone think when police are searching for a similarly situated dirtbag, who just murdered several people including a police officer, and maimed hundreds of others, their focus is on the non-complaint magazine in someone’s sock drawer?  The law may allow for the search, but if it does, they have more on their mind than your 15 round Glock mag.  

It might be more instructive instead of saying prepare for mass raids, to inform people, many who do not posses our knowledge of the law, with their rights. 

If the police show up and ask to see your weapons or gun safe, you are free to say no.  Be careful, they are very slick and will say anything to get into your home if that is their mission.  They can’t arrest you for not consenting.

If they ask you if you have magazines that are non-compliant, you are free to remain silent. Don’t lie, just be silent and say I don’t wish to speak with you. It is easier said than done as police are instructed on how to manipulate targets to get them to allow searches, waive miranda, etc.  

If they threaten that they will get a search warrant if you don’t consent, tell them ok.  It’s an absolute they will get in if you consent. It’s not absolute that they will be granted a search warrant, and if they do, you can challenge it later in court. 

If people are worried about parts of the law, they should speak directly with a lawyer about their particular situation. 

That’s my 2 cents, feel free to disregard, I won’t force anyone to do or believe anything, I just want you to know their are other informed opinions out there that aren’t total doom and gloom.

[Maksim 1,504]

7 minutes ago, JasonSeidman said:

He won’t have a reason, but I suppose he could try.   You tell me...

I am quite disheartened with some of the fear mongering going on right now and it’s at a full court press.  From threats of mass raids on those who own firearms capable of accepting “large capacity magazines,” to Murphy must conduct raids for fear of political retribution, to I’m facing 115 years in jail and a million in fines, to waking up today to an article posted speaking of searches of homes without probable cause (during a search for terrorist bombers), for reasons I’m not sure of, a few in the community are doing, in my opinion, a disservice to the 2a community. I’m not seeking to take away what they have done over time and for what they have done, I and all of us should be grateful for that. 

As we stand here, on the eve of many of our friends turning into criminals for doing nothing more than inaction, and we stand here having had our constitutional rights limited, illegally and against our will, I thought I’d offer another perspective.  A perspective on seeking to help some of us figure it out, and not scare some of us into hiding or moving out of state and reducing the size of the community here to support the second amendment. 

Full disclosure, I can’t call this legal advice as I don’t know all of your specifics, but I can offer some perspective and try and quell some of the fear that has been heightened over the last few days. That’s not to say there should be no fear, the government has just infringed on our constitutional rights, our governor is hostile to our cause, but the onslaught currently occurring, is making people think tomorrow is the day my local PD raids my home. 

About me: I’m a proud supporter of the second amendment, a criminal defense attorney, and a former Assistant Middlesex County Prosecutor who ran the county gang, gun, and drugs task force. At my time there, lawful gun owners were not the target of our investigations, that’s not to say some lawful gun owners didn’t do other nutty or illegal stuff, but we didn’t target them for being gun owners, they were targeted for drug dealing, illegal gun running, assault, etc. Those people we in no way assets to the second amendment cause. 

We, those of us on these discussion groups and forums, are among the most educated gun owners in the state. There are hundreds of thousands of gun owners in the state, but these Facebook groups and forums have 2,000 or 5,000 people participating in the discussion. Quite honestly, I’d expect Joe Schmo gun owner, who got a pistol after watching the expendables because it looks cool, and really has no idea about the mag ban or his second amendment rights, to run afoul of the law before any of us do. That said, I hope, that any person who unknowingly or mistakenly brings a “large capacity magazine” to a range or gun club, is told to take it home or throw it out, and not have the police called on them. I can’t imagine any range that did that would be in business long anyways.

I have a hard time with someone, especially someone knowledgeable, suggesting that the simple act of owning a gun that can accept large capacity magazines, is grounds for large scale raids.  That IS fear mongering.  Raids require search warrants. Search warrants require probable cause. Probable cause has to be determined by a judge, yes a N.J. judge, but a judge.  It’s not some willy nilly standard. There have to be proofs of the illegality, describe the items they are seeking, and enough facts, specific facts, to overbear your fourth amendment rights. I have participated in a large amount of search warrants, from the drafting of the affidavit to appearing with the officer in front of a judge, defending search warrants on motions to suppress, and challenging searches based on the fourth amendment. I would not approve an officer seeing a judge, nor would I ever expect a judge to approve a search warrant based on the following:

“John Doe is a resident of New Jersey.  In 2009, he purchased a Beretta 92fs, a 9 millimeter pistol.  That firearm is capable of accepting a magazine that contains more than 10 rounds. Based upon the previous, we believe that we have probable cause to believe that he has a large capacity magazine.”  

Even in N.J., that isn’t going to fly.  It’s probable cause to believe, not a hunch. Without more that’s simply a hunch. That isn’t to say that won’t be part of an application for a search warrant, but there must be more. Someone witnessing your large capacity magazine, posting photos of your large capacity magazines to social media, or possibly bragging about keeping them or using them could certainly further their quest to search a home. What i find sad, is with specific knowledge of what is required for a search warrant, people are still stoking the fires of fear regarding mass raids.

I don’t think anyone is actually facing 115 years in jail or a million in fines for their magazines. The N.J. sentencing laws would never allow that type of sentence, not would logic allow for it. The law prohibits the possession of magazines over 10 rounds just like it prohibits possessing hollow points outside of the limited exceptions. Have you ever heard, or do you think even this sad state would allow for punishment per bullet, a 50 round box allowing for a max sentence of 75 years or a super dangerous box of 525 .22’s allowing for a max sentence of 787 years in jail. Similarly, simple possession of 50 large capacity mags will not get you 75 years. Also, with very limited exception, fines other than mandatory ones are not doled out. I’d say I’ve seen 10 cases have discretionary fines in my career of thousands of cases in superior court, and never the maximum. That said, with no record and being a lawful gun owner, possession is a fourth degree crime, which means there is a presumption of non incarceration. Having no record, a person is more likely to have pretrial intervention or probation. I’m in no way saying I agree that it should be illegal, but likely punishment potential needs to be kept in perspective. 

A quick note on exigency and the article posted on the Boston bombing, though oddly making no mention of the bombing or the search being for the bombers. First, they asked for consent.  It’s not easy to say no, especially to highly armed officers in tactical gear, but it’s your right. Does anyone think when police are searching for a similarly situated dirtbag, who just murdered several people including a police officer, and maimed hundreds of others, their focus is on the non-complaint magazine in someone’s sock drawer?  The law may allow for the search, but if it does, they have more on their mind than your 15 round Glock mag.  

It might be more instructive instead of saying prepare for mass raids, to inform people, many who do not posses our knowledge of the law, with their rights. 

If the police show up and ask to see your weapons or gun safe, you are free to say no.  Be careful, they are very slick and will say anything to get into your home if that is their mission.  They can’t arrest you for not consenting.

If they ask you if you have magazines that are non-compliant, you are free to remain silent. Don’t lie, just be silent and say I don’t wish to speak with you. It is easier said than done as police are instructed on how to manipulate targets to get them to allow searches, waive miranda, etc.  

If they threaten that they will get a search warrant if you don’t consent, tell them ok.  It’s an absolute they will get in if you consent. It’s not absolute that they will be granted a search warrant, and if they do, you can challenge it later in court. 

If people are worried about parts of the law, they should speak directly with a lawyer about their particular situation. 

That’s my 2 cents, feel free to disregard, I won’t force anyone to do or believe anything, I just want you to know their are other informed opinions out there that aren’t total doom and gloom.

We need a +100 button here. Here you go folks, an opinion from someone knowledgeable and who has been on both sides of the aisle. 

[Sota 1,191]

5 hours ago, JasonSeidman said:

Sounds good to me!  Though I may have to buy a new shotgun, as my mossberg shockwave isn’t a shotgun all, but a pistol gripped firearm I was able to buy without a permit to purchase. That’s to long of a discussion for 1210am

Oh man... you'll be in good company.  Last outing I had my 2, and at least 1 other showed up (I think it was 2.)  Assuming it's not insane crazy winds like the last time you'll dust a few clays with a shockwave without too much trouble. 

If you haven't read any of the other SS threads, we basically have one simple rule (after the BE SAFE! rule, of course)... if you can feed it, you can shoot it.  We're pretty liberal with our sharing or wives... I MEAN SHOTGUNS... at the shootout.  

ETA after the prior dissertation...

I'm not going to make any promises, but...
IF you came to Shotgun Shootout
IF someone brought a popup tent or two
IF someone brought some tarps to make sides
IF someone brought a space heater or two
IF you decided to hold "court" in an IALBNYL (i'm a lawyer but not YOUR lawyer) sense

I think it might be safe to say you'd not be wanting for shells, clays, shotguns to shoot, bad coffee, and good donuts.  

I'm just sayin'...

Which is reminding me... someone needs to start that thread...

[CAL. .30 M1 2,101]

I hope my pistol permits are ready this week !

[Screwball 483]

I just checked, Nappen's Facebook page has his office in Eatontown. Is that the same guy?

Yea, it’s like a block or two north of the police station. Maybe a half mile (or less) south of Fort Monmouth.

His brother, and I believe two other guys, make up his office. Do not know how many of them still reside in NJ, but it isn’t that uncommon. Think his office has been there for years... at least how it looks when you pass by (not bad looking, but not brand new). Driven by a few times, as my company has an account with few apartment buildings nearby.

Regards to the man, I’ve never met him or talked with him. A secretary in my office went to school with him, and from her remembrance of him and the BS he still posts (his website still says the NJSP is wrong, and the TAC-14/Shockwave is a Destructive Device [emoji849]), I have no desire to use him as a lawyer.

All his views are his opinion of the law... doesn’t mean it is the law. Think too many people confuse that concept.

[voyager9 3,433]

6 hours ago, Maksim said:

We need a +100 button here. Here you go folks, an opinion from someone knowledgeable and who has been on both sides of the aisle. 

It’s as long as AVB’s posts. It actually informative. 

[Ray Ray 3,566]

I wonder how many of my fellow "patriots" will be turning in their AR15s as well?  Those are next.  

I have lost some respect for some of my brethren here.

[xXxplosive 823]

They disarm us....They own us......OMO.

[Scorpio64 5,146]

8 hours ago, JasonSeidman said:

Sounds good to me!  Though I may have to buy a new shotgun, as my mossberg shockwave isn’t a shotgun all, but a pistol gripped firearm

Ahem....  It's a "birds head grip", not a pistol grip.  If it had a pistol grip, it would not be exempt from NFA.  And, the Shockwave is a perfectly good trap gun.  Just wear gloves.

Thee are two basic rules to a Shotgun Shoot. 1) Be safe. 2) Bring what you can.  Many of us bring loaners and extra ammo for new shooters to learn on.  We also share some of our most beloved SGs with anyone who wants to give it a test drive.

Be warned though, Dusting clays is addictive and you will probably be heading straight for your LGS after the shoot to peruse the SG selection.

 

[PK90 3,569]

FYI, ATF classifies a Shockwave and others as a Pistol-grip Firearm.

Sent from an undisclosed location via Tapatalk

[louu 399]

9 hours ago, JasonSeidman said:

 

Im sure us law shield is a good company, my comment is more because of how intertwined he is with them.  I have no dog in that fight, but I am a big supporter of the NRA. If you can go through them, I’d say that’s as good an option as any.

Thanks man, I didn't know the NRA had lawyer insurance. I'm a member of both US law shield and NRA. 

9 hours ago, JasonSeidman said:

 

Im sure us law shield is a good company, my comment is more because of how intertwined he is with them.  I have no dog in that fight, but I am a big supporter of the NRA. If you can go through them, I’d say that’s as good an option as any.

Thanks man, I didn't know the NRA had lawyer insurance. I'm a member of both US law shield and NRA. 

[remixer 1,645]

Been saying this for Ages... Nappen is a fear monger..im not the only NJ dealer that takes issue with his stupid Facebook posts.

I just had a debate with someone this weekend at the shop who was quoting Nappen until i shot that foolishness down and explained to him why his statements are not factual and only opinion.... Bad opinion at that.

Based on his posts its illegal for me to sleep with my guns since NJ does not specifically state i can.

The gentlemen who contacted Nappen to about a CCW and was told 8k got off cheap.. I lost faith in Nappen when i called him for a consult on writing my justifiable need letter for a CCW as an FFL... within 5 minutes of the phone call.. it was 5k to start which would last minutes... then we would go for national donations etc etc... at that point i ended the call thinking . What the fuck just happened. I only asked for help writing the letter for justifiable need. 

It seems to me its very much a situation of...    This is illegal.... for 10 bucks come to my seminar and ill tell you more. which of course he does not. Sadly he has a group of about 20 followers that take his word as if Moses brought it down from the mountain then the bad info spreads like cancer. Ranges are some of the worst offenders when it comes to spreading opinion as fact.

I swear these people follow him so close if he stops short someones getting pregnant.

 

[remixer 1,645]

1 hour ago, Scorpio64 said:

Ahem....  It's a "birds head grip", not a pistol grip.  If it had a pistol grip, it would not be exempt from NFA.  And, the Shockwave is a perfectly good trap gun.  Just wear gloves.

Thee are two basic rules to a Shotgun Shoot. 1) Be safe. 2) Bring what you can.  Many of us bring loaners and extra ammo for new shooters to learn on.  We also share some of our most beloved SGs with anyone who wants to give it a test drive.

Be warned though, Dusting clays is addictive and you will probably be heading straight for your LGS after the shoot to peruse the SG selection.

 

You know according to Lord Nappen both @Scorpio64 & @JasonSeidman own illegal firearms in NJ. just sayin

[remixer 1,645]

10 hours ago, sota said:

Mr. Seidman, you should definitely come out to our next Shotgun Shootout.  

Just dont call prior to arriving to find out if its busy

 

[Lakota 342]

15 minutes ago, remixer said:

Just dont call prior to arriving to find out if its busy

 

And ignore any posts from @Ray Ray on the subject lol

[remixer 1,645]

1 minute ago, Lakota said:

And ignore any posts from @Ray Ray on the subject lol

Bingo LOL
 

[Sota 1,191]

*koff*buyallyourgunsfromsteveespeciallyshockwaves*koff*

 

[Screwball 483]

Ahem....  It's a "birds head grip", not a pistol grip.  If it had a pistol grip, it would not be exempt from NFA.

The pistol grip isn’t the issue with those firearms... the birds head grip gives it the needed overall length (over 26”). If you made a pistol grip with an extension behind it that is around 2” (depending on the grip design), you’d be fine. Ithaca did theirs in a Mare’s Leg like setup.

I have a pistol grip on my TAC-14, but the overall length is 33” with the brace unfolded. Folded... it is 24”, which is about what a pistol grip on a TAC-14 would result in.

ATF measures overall length with braces extended, like with stocks and other firearms previously approved (Black Aces DT, for example). Per the NJSP letter, all BATF requirements must be followed... so as long as that grey area is Federally legal, those firearms are good to go.

[remixer 1,645]

3 minutes ago, sota said:

*koff*buyallyourgunsfromsteveespeciallyshockwaves*koff*

 

Please do not give me any advertising.. it was not my point and people will think i'm profiteering on this thread

 

[Sota 1,191]

2 hours ago, voyager9 said:

It’s as long as AVB’s posts. It actually informative. 

dude... don't insult the cool guy by even mentioning the moron in the same sentence.

[Sota 1,191]

46 minutes ago, remixer said:

Been saying this for Ages... Nappen is a fear monger..im not the only NJ dealer that takes issue with his stupid Facebook posts.

I just had a debate with someone this weekend at the shop who was quoting Nappen until i shot that foolishness down and explained to him why his statements are not factual and only opinion.... Bad opinion at that.

Based on his posts its illegal for me to sleep with my guns since NJ does not specifically state i can.

The gentlemen who contacted Nappen to about a CCW and was told 8k got off cheap.. I lost faith in Nappen when i called him for a consult on writing my justifiable need letter for a CCW as an FFL... within 5 minutes of the phone call.. it was 5k to start which would last minutes... then we would go for national donations etc etc... at that point i ended the call thinking . What the fuck just happened. I only asked for help writing the letter for justifiable need. 

It seems to me its very much a situation of...    This is illegal.... for 10 bucks come to my seminar and ill tell you more. which of course he does not. Sadly he has a group of about 20 followers that take his word as if Moses brought it down from the mountain then the bad info spreads like cancer. Ranges are some of the worst offenders when it comes to spreading opinion as fact.

I swear these people follow him so close if he stops short someones getting pregnant.

 

Thanks.  I needed a way/reason to skip lunch today.

3 minutes ago, remixer said:

Please do not give me any advertising.. it was not my point and people will thing i'm profiteering on this thread

 

you're right. I should just add it to my sig in big, bold, beautiful, steve sized letters.  

[remixer 1,645]

[Screwball 483]

[emoji1787]

Wonder if we ask him questions... he will reply there.

Nappen... Coke or Pepsi?

[remixer 1,645]

This might be one of his most disgusting posts.

[Sniper 6,372]

3 minutes ago, remixer said:

This might be one of his most disgusting posts.

Most of his recent posts are. Really makes me question his professionalism. Those type of posts are totally irresponsible and unprofessional. I would expect some Redneck to post something like that, but NOT an attorney.

I asked the question earlier, is there any slim possibility he knows something the AG is going to do, or is this just true fear mongering?

 

[remixer 1,645]

 

5 minutes ago, Sniper22 said:

Most of his recent posts are. Really makes me question his professionalism. Those type of posts are totally irresponsible and unprofessional. I would expect some Redneck to post something like that, but NOT an attorney.

I asked the question earlier, is there any slim possibility he knows something the AG is going to do, or is this just true fear mongering?

 

I dont even understand the connection between NJ's mag limit and Kristallnacht. Is he saying that NJ law enforcement are planning to destroy the stores of NJ gun dealers and kill over 100 people in the process?

It seems like a very liberal way of thinking... Ie caravan to holocaust.

I doubt he has any inside info as to what the AG plans....  IMO the AG plans nothing in regards to coming door to door... NJSP hardly has the resources or man power to do what they already do.. I doubt they can pull this off.