Fear Mongering?

[ChrisJM981 924]

 

48 minutes ago, remixer said:

Your a jew?

 

Just kidding I knew this . Yea as a Jew it pissed me off as well

As a non-denominational Christian it pissed me off. Off with his head.

[Ray Ray 3,566]

1 hour ago, remixer said:

I think it’s been positive and sorta stayed in topic

Shut up, jerk.

[remixer 1,645]

10 minutes ago, ChrisJM981 said:

 

As a non-denominational Christian it pissed me off. Off with his head.

It should piss off most people who can think logically

 

10 minutes ago, Ray Ray said:

Shut up, jerk.

That was NOT a positive comment.

[Scorpio64 5,154]

18 minutes ago, Maksim said:

The reason why is that on Facebook, most of the posts were complete and utter support, the few dissenting opinions were quickly suppressed and people attacked by gun owners.

Yet here... it seems to be quite the opposite.

So what's different?

The NJGF culture is quite different from other gun forums and FB.  Because of the constant threats to our rights, we are more active in discussing legal and compliance based subjects than almost anything else.  This comparison is made on a sample of five gun related forums I am, or was, active on.

As a result of the focus here, we are generally more informed.  This can be attributed to the valuable contributions from LGS owners, LE, lawyers and folks from rights groups who are active here on a continuous basis.  Without their input, we'd be lost at sea.

Nappen has achieved a sort of minor celebrity status, and as such, has followers.  His FB page will naturally attract his "believers", in addition to a cadre of yes men to help prop him up.  Nappen's FB page exists for one thing only, to promote his business, whereas NJGF exists for the broader interests of NJ gun owners.

I can't say Nappen has done no good for NJ gun owners, but the good he has done has been over inflated and his brand is overvalued.  One can only guess why he has gone full retard on the mag ban, but those who are familiar with his way of doing things will have their suspicions.

Nappen is not letting this crisis go to waste.  He will surely profit from it, but really, there is nothing wrong with that.  Fortunately, we here are ahead of the curve and not likely to fall for a money making scheme.  We know better because we have better resources.

On his FB page, Nappen controls the narrative and crushes dissent.  He keeps his message on track and sells a lot of stuff.  Many people do not want to work things out for themselves, they just want to be told what to do.  Life is complicated, life in NJ is even more complicated, and Nappen is more than happy to profiteer off of people who just want to keep things simple.

On NJGF, our diverse family of members regularly throw down in a most New Jersey fashion.  All opinions are heard, discussed, agreed upon, mocked, and so on.   It's the wackiest kind of  crowd sourcing, but it works.  While it's true things here can get ugly sometimes, the outcome is beautiful.

If you boil it down.  NJGF members are mostly independent thinkers, and those who aren't are "gently" encouraged to become independent thinkers.  We work out things for ourselves.  Nappen's followers are sheep who don't want to think for themselves, they just want to be told what to do.

[remixer 1,645]

1 minute ago, Scorpio64 said:

On NJGF, our diverse family

I love you too bro..

[JackDaWack 2,895]

How much has he been paid to speak at ANJRPC meetings?

All of this had him "selling out" seats over the summer that they had to bring him back for another seminar... 

I want to know how much ANJRPC has paid him for this. No, we did not need him or any lawyer to tell us what the laws says... It's very obvious what it says, and ANJRPC has its own lawyers in the ranks. 

[Maksim 1,504]

4 minutes ago, remixer said:

I love you too bro..

I know... We put up with your BS steve, but you do help out with the community.  

Just now, JackDaWack said:

How much has he been paid to speak at ANJRPC meetings?

All of this had him "selling out" seats over the summer that they had to bring him back for another seminar... 

I want to know how much ANJRPC has paid him for this. No, we did not need him or any lawyer to tell us what the laws says... It's very obvious what it says, and ANJRPC has its own lawyers in the ranks. 

Along the same lines though, it seems ANJRPC is more influential in north jersey, being part of the Cherry Ridge range... where in Central and South Jersey you really did not hear much from them. 

[remixer 1,645]

Just now, Maksim said:

I know... We put up with your BS steve, but you do help out with the community.  

How do i help out with the community?

Just wanna make sure your not using generic replies

BTW.... who feels safer this morning?

[Maksim 1,504]

Just now, remixer said:

How do i help out with the community?

Just wanna make sure your not using generic replies

Well, for one, you sell us guns at very reasonable prices.

Secondly, you give us the ability to teach basic grammar by pointing out the correct usage of "your" vs "you're."

[remixer 1,645]

Just now, Maksim said:

Well, for one, you sell us guns at very reasonable prices.

Secondly, you give us the ability to teach basic grammar by pointing out the correct usage of "your" vs "you're."

Acceptable. 

I'm famous for my Grammar. 

@67gtonut can verify that.

[myhatinthering 462]

my problem is there has to be something on the books that prohibits laws for the sake of making laws otherwise they could pass a law banning bubble gum.  What studies, statistics, etc etc show 10 is better than 15 and where is the argument that it's not infringement? 

ALSO, WHY THE FK DO WE ALLOW THEM TO FRAME THE GUN VIOLENCE DEBATE WITH BOGUS STATISTICS?????????

sadly, the 1 permit a month for handguns was not fought strong enough and it's now downhill.  Drastic measures are needed and I'm ok with him using hyperbole to get attention.  As a guy with Jewish grandparents/family who came in the 30s (raised Catholic ..mom), I have no problem with it at all and he's right.  The Nazis didn't just start out being drastic, they crept into it until  they knew there would no opposition.

We've got a litany of proof where pols have said confiscation, use of medical and duplicitious tactics etc etc to disarm us....

 

Nappen is right here

 

[1LtCAP 4,263]

isn't mr nappen a member here?

[Sniper 6,372]

21 minutes ago, Maksim said:

Along the same lines though, it seems ANJRPC is more influential in north jersey, being part of the Cherry Ridge range... where in Central and South Jersey you really did not hear much from them. 

I wondered about that, there's not much going on with ANJRPC down here where us Redneck peons live in Central/South Jersey. What's the problem, is our money a different color, so he/they won't do seminars down here?

I've got to believe there are at least a few gun owners in my neck of the woods, right?

[Maksim 1,504]

4 minutes ago, myhatinthering said:

my problem is there has to be something on the books that prohibits laws for the sake of making laws otherwise they could pass a law banning bubble gum.  What studies, statistics, etc etc show 10 is better than 15 and where is the argument that it's not infringement? 

ALSO, WHY THE FK DO WE ALLOW THEM TO FRAME THE GUN VIOLENCE DEBATE WITH BOGUS STATISTICS?????????

sadly, the 1 permit a month for handguns was not fought strong enough and it's now downhill.  Drastic measures are needed and I'm ok with him using hyperbole to get attention.  As a guy with Jewish grandparents/family who came in the 30s (raised Catholic ..mom), I have no problem with it at all and he's right.  The Nazis didn't just start out being drastic, they crept into it until  they knew there would no opposition.

We've got a litany of proof where pols have said confiscation, use of medical and duplicitious tactics etc etc to disarm us....

 

Nappen is right here

 

But here is the difference, It is poor choice. 

Are you saying NJ is going to go door to door rounding up Jews?  That is what his message meant to me.

To answer your questions however, listen to the audio that was posted here of the hearing.  They do discuss the issue fairly well.

Ultimately it boils down to the simple fact that gun owners are a small minority in NJ.  The percentage of gun owners who really care however is far less.

Gun rights in NJ are going to be one of only two ways...

1. The Supreme Court steps in and guarantees them, or

2. The underlying demographics and political views change in NJ.

In order to accomplish the second, we need more people to go out, pick up a gun and go shoot, and to realize that guns are not evil.

Until 30% to 50% of the population believes "guns are not evil," the "do anything to stop violence" crowd will keep on re-electing their congress people.

Now... here is the REALLY dirty secret... gun control is GREAT for business... particularly the incumbent players in a state where the barriers to entry are quite high.

Just look at how many FFLs there are in Eastern PA vs Jersey, and the average earnings, etc.  Same for ranges and affiliated businesses. 

[vladtepes 1,060]

The biggest problem I observed while in NJ spanning the few communities I was in touch with..

* you have people that hate guns and want them banned

* you have people that don’t care

* you have your typical hunter type that doesn’t think you should carry a gun or have “military weapons of war”

* and then you have actual supporters of 2A rights

unfortunately by the time you get to the last group.. it represents a small portion of the voting population (relative to the rest)..

politicians are going to always push things that are easy and or cater to the masses.. so I don’t see a clear path to change the trajectory of the state..

 

 

 

[myhatinthering 462]

Just now, Maksim said:

But here is the difference, It is poor choice. 

Are you saying NJ is going to go door to door rounding up Jews?  That is what his message meant to me.

To answer your questions however, listen to the audio that was posted here of the hearing.  They do discuss the issue fairly well.

Ultimately it boils down to the simple fact that gun owners are a small minority in NJ.  The percentage of gun owners who really care however is far less.

Gun rights in NJ are going to be one of only two ways...

1. The Supreme Court steps in and guarantees them, or

2. The underlying demographics and political views change in NJ.

In order to accomplish the second, we need more people to go out, pick up a gun and go shoot, and to realize that guns are not evil.

Until 30% to 50% of the population believes "guns are not evil," the "do anything to stop violence" crowd will keep on re-electing their congress people.

Now... here is the REALLY dirty secret... gun control is GREAT for business... particularly the incumbent players in a state where the barriers to entry are quite high.

Just look at how many FFLs there are in Eastern PA vs Jersey, and the average earnings, etc.  Same for ranges and affiliated businesses. 

no and neither is he, its hyperbole

make no mistake, at every junction in history where rights were taken away during peacetime, they were done incrementally and that is what is happening and he's saying.  Stop reading it literally, it's hyperbole but it's accurate. 

30-50% do believe guns are not evil and the last major studies (funded by oblunder) prove this.  More than half think we have more than enough gun control laws, more than 1/3 of US households have a gun in them, 40% with kids have a gun.    the problem is the biased media and the fact that the gun community is fragmented...period

If the state could get away with registration and confiscation, do you think they would?

love the weapons of war stuff too.  I'll stop when anyone can show me a single army that uses semi auto only rifles for military use.  I'll wait.....

[Maksim 1,504]

Just now, myhatinthering said:

no and neither is he, its hyperbole

make no mistake, at every junction in history where rights were taken away during peacetime, they were done incrementally and that is what is happening and he's saying.  Stop reading it literally, it's hyperbole but it's accurate. 

30-50% do believe guns are not evil and the last major studies (funded by oblunder) prove this.  More than half think we have more than enough gun control laws, more than 1/3 of US households have a gun in them, 40% with kids have a gun.    the problem is the biased media and the fact that the gun community is fragmented...period

If the state could get away with registration and confiscation, do you think they would?

We are not talking about the United States as a whole.. we are talking NJ.  It is a VERY different world, don't believe me?  

So here I am in a rural area in Eastern PA.  Across the street I have a neighbor who shoots in his back yard, on the other side a guy who shoots in his basement.  On the other side of our development is a guy who built a nice range for himself and routinely shoots full auto stuff.  No one bats an eye.

Now... imagine I told you this was say... Princeton, NJ, Livingston, etc.  

How quickly would that get called in and I have SWAT on my doorstep?

The general population of NJ is severely different in views than the broader United States.  The notable exceptions are Western and Pine Barrens.  Almost anywhere else, i.e. where people generally live... it is blue.... and THEY think that gun owners are generally weird people and that there is a real difference between a 10 round "clipazine" and a 15 round one.

That is why I think it is pointless to go through Jersey courts.... if we want to defend, we need help from Supreme Court.

If gun owners want to go on the offensive, we NEED MORE NUMBERS!

We need soccer moms, school teachers and others to go out to the range, hold a gun, and to see that we are responsible people.

Posting "Police are coming!" messages on Facebook, is pointless because that in turn just solidifies gun owners as the tinfoil extremists we supposedly are.  

Want to make a difference?  Bring a non-gun person to the range... 

[High Exposure 5,664]

15 hours ago, Maksim said:

I believe you misread his comment here.  He was agreeing with you.  

Interesting.  I know off topic... but...

Can you drive and have your phone in a hands free device or say on the dash and watch a movie while driving? er... have a movie playing while driving. 

No. There is a statute that prohibits driving with a video screen visible to the driver.

39:3A-1

[Scorpio64 5,154]

33 minutes ago, Maksim said:

If gun owners want to go on the offensive, we NEED MORE NUMBERS!

What are the numbers?  I tried looking up how many gun owners there are in NJ but only came up with per capita guns and total number of guns in state. 

I did find one source that put NJ at 15% of households but the source was dubious.  Even so, 15% is 1,350,000 households, and many households have more than one gun owner.  So, lets extrapolate that to conservatively estimate 25% of the gun owning households have at least 2 voting age gun owners.  That would be 1,620,000 gun owners.

If we could get 1.6M gun owners on board, that would be something to reckon with politically.

 

[Maksim 1,504]

12 minutes ago, Scorpio64 said:

What are the numbers?  I tried looking up how many gun owners there are in NJ but only came up with per capita guns and total number of guns in state. 

I did find one source that put NJ at 15% of households but the source was dubious.  Even so, 15% is 1,350,000 households, and many households have more than one gun owner.  So, lets extrapolate that to conservatively estimate 25% of the gun owning households have at least 2 voting age gun owners.  That would be 1,620,000 gun owners.

If we could get 1.6M gun owners on board, that would be something to reckon with politically.

 

The numbers I saw were around 1.2 million gun owners, so that is not households... I believe the annual state police report may have and that it can be based on the number of issued FIDs.

Now... having said that... at least 50% of those are people who have guns, but are not "gun people."  By this I mean people who either inhereted guns, or bought a gun for home defense and haven't actually shot it.

To them... 10 round mag limits seems just fine.

Take out hunters, and I would estimate the true number of people who are both interested in guns and actually shoot them is closer to 250,000 and likely declining.

 

[myhatinthering 462]

great discussion@@@@@!!!!!!!

[Scorpio64 5,154]

16 minutes ago, Maksim said:

The numbers I saw were around 1.2 million gun owners,

That seems kinda low, even for NJ.  Maybe it's because I live in Monmouth Co. where at least 30% of the people I know are gun owners.

I think the number I'm looking for is total # of FPID card holders.

[Maksim 1,504]

Just now, Scorpio64 said:

That seems kinda low, even for NJ.  Maybe it's because I live in Monmouth Co. where at least 30% of the people I know are gun owners.

I think the number I'm looking for is total # of FPID card holders.

And Monmouth is one of the only counties with a Republican representative.

 

[Scorpio64 5,154]

3 minutes ago, Maksim said:

And Monmouth is one of the only counties with a Republican representative.

I bet the number of gun owners is higher in Democrat controlled Camden than Monmouth  

 

[Maksim 1,504]

1 minute ago, Scorpio64 said:

I bet the number of gun owners is higher in Democrat controlled Camden than Monmouth  

 

We are talking about "legal" gun owners.... or folks you would be okay dating your kids!

[Sniper 6,372]

2 minutes ago, Scorpio64 said:

I bet the number of gun owners is higher in Democrat controlled Camden than Monmouth  

 

and I bet those gun owners in Camden have some of those contraband, high capacity magazines, too!

 

[10X 3,296]

2 minutes ago, Scorpio64 said:

I bet the number of gun owners is higher in Democrat controlled Camden than Monmouth  

 

I think a big chunk of the Camden numbers would be due to gun 'possessors' rather than 'owners'.

[PK90 3,570]

How many of those FPID holders have left NJ or have died, and they don't know?

[CAL. .30 M1 2,101]

27 minutes ago, Maksim said:

And Monmouth is one of the only counties with a Republican representative.

 

Listen our here in the sticks of Sussex CO...Northern end - we are tried and true red IMO - and there are more guns in Sussex Co than anyone wants to believe

 

[GRIZ 3,369]

6 hours ago, Maksim said:

The numbers I saw were around 1.2 million gun owners, so that is not households... I believe the annual state police report may have and that it can be based on the number of issued FIDs.

Now... having said that... at least 50% of those are people who have guns, but are not "gun people."  By this I mean people who either inhereted guns, or bought a gun for home defense and haven't actually shot it.

To them... 10 round mag limits seems just fine.

Take out hunters, and I would estimate the true number of people who are both interested in guns and actually shoot them is closer to 250,000 and likely declining.

 

@Maksim I generally agree with your statement with one exception.  I don't think the number of people interested in shooting is declining.  If anything it's increasing.

I think gun games had a lot to do with this. There really weren't any until the middle 70s.  Then came along IPSC, bowling pins and metallic silhouette.  Guns weren't just for cops, hunters, and targetshooters any more.

The growth of number of FFLs and commercial ranges just bear out this growth of shooting in NJ.  Someone has to be keeping them in business.