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16 minutes ago, FedUpWithNJ said:

No, I am fighting an actual injustice that L/E may or may not choose to enforce. But they surely would if directed to from on-high.

Now, I don't disagree that it is unlikely. But if you told me there'd be a risk of courts overturning mens rea for inconsequential gun law infractions, I also would have been skeptical. Yet they did.

You seem to have an issue with Nappen. This has nothing to do with him. Highlighting the worst-case scenarios under the legislation forces the politicians to respond and is effective in mobilizing opposition.

 

1 minute ago, Screwball said:

 


I have an issue of mountains being made out of molehills... which is my main issue with Nappen, at the moment. You see... it is actually the topic of the thread.

Nappen might be a hell of a guy. Don’t know, and truly don’t care. He is a lawyer... one that I would not ever call up because he still argues things are illegal that NJSP and the AG clearly stated are legal. I have no use for a lawyer like that. If, in the unlikelihood that I need a lawyer in NJ that I’d feel comfortable with regarding firearms... he did post already in this thread multiple times. That’s my choice, as is anyone else’s. If you can afford X lawyer, then that’s how you are represented.

Your argument is baseless. Your injustice is imaginary. And your theory doesn’t have a chance in hell of actually occurring (resources, lack of probable cause, etc). But if you want to stoke the same fire as Nappen, whether it is due to delusion or ignorance... you get the same response from me. Sorry if you take offense.

 

So both of these are very valuable comments and my question.

There have been a number of people who see nothing wrong in mongering and dealing with this "worst case scenario" that may possibly happen.

Personally, I find it distasteful that the Pro 2A right in NJ is stooping down to the same level.

Screaming that the police is going to go door to door to search for your guns, or comments like "They know what magazines you have" are just as bad as people on the left saying... "Legally owned guns are just waiting to kill someone." or "A legally owned gun is only one incident away from shooting up 500 kids in a school."

It's one thing for someone who is just a regular person to say it, and I am 100% fine with simply ignoring those tools, but when you have an attorney saying those things... I draw the line.

Once again, if GFH Anthony, or anyone else in NJ said it... would be one thing... but Evan Nappen, AS AN ATTORNEY.... that was over the line. Again, my opinion. 

 

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1 hour ago, Screwball said:

Your argument is baseless. Your injustice is imaginary. And your theory doesn’t have a chance in hell of actually occurring (resources, lack of probable cause, etc). But if you want to stoke the same fire as Nappen, whether it is due to delusion or ignorance... you get the same response from me. Sorry if you take offense.

No, the argument may be unlikely but it is certainly not baseless. When it comes to guns, NJ courts readily ride roughshod over constitutional rights and common-law precedent on a daily basis. Read NJ V Pelleteri for starters. Your entire argument relies on the courts not going just one step further and also skirting the 4th amendment. It's been done and it will be done again. Just pray you're not on the receiving end.

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1 hour ago, Maksim said:

Screaming that the police is going to go door to door to search for your guns, or comments like "They know what magazines you have" are just as bad as people on the left saying... "Legally owned guns are just waiting to kill someone." or "A legally owned gun is only one incident away from shooting up 500 kids in a school."

The difference is the last two statements are simply false whereas the 15 round mag ban is now the law. Up to 18 months in jail and a $10,000 fine per offense. Just because you say L/E are unlikely to proactively enforce the ban doesn't mean they won't, particularly given the increasingly anti-gun sentiment in NJ. Laws are laws and can and will be used for political reasons if expedience demands it. Just imagine if someone shoots up a school or a mall with an illegal 15 round "high capacity" mag and the media go nuts when they find out local police could have done something about it. Do you think Weinberg, Murphy or Grewal would hesitate in pushing for more proactive enforcement? I don't.

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32 minutes ago, FedUpWithNJ said:

The difference is the last two statements are simply false whereas the 15 round mag ban is now the law. Up to 18 months in jail and a $10,000 fine per offense. Just because you say L/E are unlikely to proactively enforce the ban doesn't mean they won't, particularly given the increasingly anti-gun sentiment in NJ. Laws are laws and can and will be used for political reasons if expedience demands it. Just imagine if someone shoots up a school or a mall with an illegal 15 round "high capacity" mag and the media go nuts when they find out local police could have done something about it. Do you think Weinberg, Murphy or Grewal would hesitate in pushing for more proactive enforcement? I don't.

No one is denying that the 10 round mag limit is now the law.  No one.  There was never any issue with it.

But stating that the police are GOING to come to you, or that they have records of exactly what you own and what magazines you have is just plain wrong.

"Just because you say L/E are unlikely to pro-actively enforce the ban doesn't mean they won't"

To that we can say... "Just because you own a gun doesn't mean you will not go shoot up a school."

They are both asinine statements, that are both POSSIBLE.... but not likely to happen.

Keep in mind you have had MULTIPLE law enforcement officials, both active and retired, as well as attorneys who were on both the prosecution and defense sides TELLING YOU you have a higher chance of winning the lottery than have the cops bust down your door tonight looking for 15 round mags. 

Just think of this logically for 30 seconds... IMAGINE the police going door to door... and while 90% will comply out of being oblivious... you do have 1 or 2% who are going to kill some people when the police come busting down doors.  Can you imagine the liability that would arise out of it?

IF the state orders people going to door... THE LAST problem anyone here will be thinking about is whether or not your mags are 10 rounds or more.   

Now, let's take a reality check...

Will you get charged IF you do something else stupid?  ABSOLUTELY.... but should you be worried that the black helicopters are coming FOR YOU?  no. 

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Read NJ V Pelleteri for starters.


And...?

Unless you are going to prove that police were there because they hunted down every Marlin “assault rifle,” reading it is pointless to the discussion. And no... they didn’t hunt down that rifle.

It actually shares more with Shawnmoore81’s situation than your example. If I remember correctly (and not 100% on it), that case was due to a domestic... which differs from his (a report due to a picture on Facebook). Whatever the situation, he (Pelleteri) opened up a gun safe, and an unregistered “assault weapon” was sitting there. Big difference than going through records (which there weren’t any for Pelleteri), and then getting a search warrant (which goes back to probable cause, but think that was beaten to death).

Only sad part of that situation is that if it happened today, even post Murphy, that same Marlin would not be illegal.

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And since it will inventively come up.. Aiken case....

HE BROKE THE LAW and had his 18 round mags or whatever it was.... 

NO ONE was out looking for him.  The only reason it came up was that his family called the police.

 

This is how I see those 15 round mags becoming an issue, just like how every other sane person here says it would... as part of you doing something else stupid.  (domestic disturbance, DWI, warrants, etc.)

Is it POSSIBLE that there will be door to door searches and follow ups?  Sure.... just like it is possible a meteor will strike earth tomorrow,  public disclosure of aliens, zombies, or Hillary admitting she was wrong.

IF any of that happens, there will be far more pressing issues to face than dealing with that crime. ... and that's the point. 

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29 minutes ago, Maksim said:

But stating that the police are GOING to come to you

I never said the police are GOING to come for me.

Quote

or that they have records of exactly what you own and what magazines you have is just plain wrong.

You keep claiming this but you're simply wrong. My handgun permit says plain as day:

Serial number: XXXXXXX. || Caliber: 9mm || New || Make: Glock || Model: 19 Gen 5

And then in the bottom right corner:

"Within 5 days after date of transaction the seller is required to provide a copy of the permit to the following:

WHITE COPY: Forwarded to the Superintendent of State Police

YELLOW COPY: Forwarded to the Issuing Authority"

The issuing authority was my local pd. So the state and local police do indeed have a record of "exactly what I own" (your words). Now, as I pointed out, they can't be 100% sure that I have a 15 round mag, but I bet they can ask Glock whether that serial number shipped with 15 round mags or simply assume that it was purchased with a 15 round mag since that was by far the norm at the time.

Quote

"Just because you say L/E are unlikely to pro-actively enforce the ban doesn't mean they won't"

To that we can say... "Just because you own a gun doesn't mean you will not go shoot up a school."

They are both asinine statements, that are both POSSIBLE.... but not likely to happen

No, I gave a very plausible scenario under which the ban would be pro-actively enforced. Think about what you are so desperately arguing: the legislature, the administration and the courts in this state have been actively suppressing our second amendment rights for the better part of half a century. They finally get to pass their signature legislation further infringing our rights yet you believe there are no circumstances under which the new laws will ever be enforced pro-actively. That's asinine.

 

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7 minutes ago, FedUpWithNJ said:

I never said the police are GOING to come for me.

You keep claiming this but you're simply wrong. My handgun permit says plain as day:

Serial number: XXXXXXX. || Caliber: 9mm || New || Make: Glock || Model: 19 Gen 5

And then in the bottom right corner:

"Within 5 days after date of transaction the seller is required to provide a copy of the permit to the following:

WHITE COPY: Forwarded to the Superintendent of State Police

YELLOW COPY: Forwarded to the Issuing Authority"

The issuing authority was my local pd. So the state and local police do indeed have a record of "exactly what own" (your words). Now, as I pointed out, they can't be 100% sure that I have a 15 round mag, but I bet they can ask Glock whether that serial number shipped with 15 round mags or simply assume that it was purchased with a 15 round mag since that was by far the norm at the time.

No, I gave a very plausible scenario under which the ban would be pro-actively enforced. Think about what you are so desperately arguing: the legislature, the administration and the courts in this state have been actively suppressing our second amendment rights for the better part of half a century. They finally get to pass their signature legislation further infringing our rights yet you believe there are no circumstances under which the new laws will ever be enforced pro-actively. That's asinine.

 

I was never saying you were stating that... I am saying what others have said, including Nappen with "Expect Police Contact." or something like that.

 

As far as on that pistol permit, please tell me where it says what magazines you have for it.

You can order that gun with 10 round mags, 15, or if you want you can use 33 round mags in there or even bigger drums.

All they know is you have a Gen 5 Glock 19... big freaking deal....

Where does it say you have 15 round magazines?  Where does it even say you bought it with magazines?  I have purchased plenty of guns with no mags.

Or who says it is even a complete gun?  It could simply be the frame of a Gen 5 Glock 19.

what they need, the proof... is that you have 15 round mags now.

Remember... innocent until proven guilty?

As far as contacting Glock.... aint going to happen.  And in that case... no one knows what happened between that time and when it came to the FFL.  Mags get swapped, altered, etc. 

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Murphy accomplished what he wanted to do....

He got a feel good law passed ....

He looks great in the eyes of his fellow Liberals...

But even he wouldn’t want the shit storm that would accompany prosecuting a clean record NJ resident for this....

this law will be enforced just like the 15rd mag limit 

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1 minute ago, Maksim said:

As far as on that pistol permit, please tell me where it says what magazines you have for it.

Dude, you claimed the police have no records of what guns I own. You were 100% wrong. They know exactly what handguns I own. I pointed out that some of those guns (the Glocks in particular) shipped standard with 15 round mags at the time. Not to mention the fact that they can probably just ask Glock which magazines that particular gun shipped with. Give it up.

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3 minutes ago, FedUpWithNJ said:

Dude, you claimed the police have no records of what guns I own. You were 100% wrong. They know exactly what handguns I own. I pointed out that some of those guns (the Glocks in particular) shipped standard with 15 round mags at the time. Not to mention the fact that they can probably just ask Glock which magazines that particular gun shipped with. Give it up.

I never said "they have no records of what HANDGUNS you own."

I did say they have no records of what magazines you own, or most guns you may own.

There are ZERO records on magazines.

There are few records which are very scattered on long guns you purchased (P2P transactions were not reported to any agencies).

There are ZERO records for guns you may have LEGALLY purchased outside of NJ and brought into the state.

I.e.  You bought 569 handguns in Florida while you lived there.  You moved to NJ.  

The records that they do have.... are paper.  They would need to spend thousands of hours trying to locate everything and piece it together for who owns what and when.

Bought a handgun 20 years ago?  Good luck trying to get them to find the paperwork for it. 

There are hundreds of thousands of guns in NJ that have very little to no paper trail.... and those are just the legally owned ones. lol. 

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49 minutes ago, 67gtonut said:

Murphy accomplished what he wanted to do....

He got a feel good law passed ....

He looks great in the eyes of his fellow Liberals...

But even he wouldn’t want the shit storm that would accompany prosecuting a clean record NJ resident for this....

this law will be enforced just like the 15rd mag limit 

He’s a little tied up with Brennon lately.

 

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34 minutes ago, Maksim said:

I never said "they have no records of what HANDGUNS you own."

I did say they have no records of what magazines you own, or most guns you may own.

There are ZERO records on magazines.

There are few records which are very scattered on long guns you purchased (P2P transactions were not reported to any agencies).

There are ZERO records for guns you may have LEGALLY purchased outside of NJ and brought into the state.

I.e.  You bought 569 handguns in Florida while you lived there.  You moved to NJ.  

The records that they do have.... are paper.  They would need to spend thousands of hours trying to locate everything and piece it together for who owns what and when.

Bought a handgun 20 years ago?  Good luck trying to get them to find the paperwork for it. 

There are hundreds of thousands of guns in NJ that have very little to no paper trail.... and those are just the legally owned ones. lol. 

What's your point? They have records on precisely which handguns have ever been legally purchased in NJ since the permitting requirements were enacted. Just because they don't have all the records doesn't mean they have no records.

My city has about 5,000 distinct addresses. I'm guessing less than 10% of the current owners at those addresses have purchased handguns here. Even if the records are not entered into a database, that's a trivial search for my local pd. Given the political will (such as after a mass shooting in which an "evil" high capacity magazine was used), it's not at all unlikely that in order to be seen to be "doing something" Trenton would insist on such searches.

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21 minutes ago, Kawi7 said:

Is Maksim getting FedUpWithNJ trying to get the point across..

Maksim is desperately trying to prove that he is the oracle now and forever for which NJ laws will be actively enforced. I get that LEOs and attorneys chiming in here have a vested interest in pretending no abuse of the law ever happens, since their livelihoods depend on the rest of us rubes having at least a grudging respect for the judicial system. But I don't get Maksim's obsession since by his own admission he no longer lives here.

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6 minutes ago, FedUpWithNJ said:

What's your point? They have records on precisely which handguns have ever been legally purchased in NJ since the permitting requirements were enacted. Just because they don't have all the records doesn't mean they have no records.

My city has about 5,000 distinct addresses. I'm guessing less than 10% of the current owners at those addresses have purchased handguns here. Even if the records are not entered into a database, that's a trivial search for my local pd. Given the political will (such as after a mass shooting in which an "evil" high capacity magazine was used), it's not at all unlikely that in order to be seen to be "doing something" Trenton would insist on such searches.

Aren’t you good friends with your CLEO?

i think you said that when you were cutting up your mags..

Point... is your friend coming to your door? Or the mall?

 

1 minute ago, FedUpWithNJ said:

Maksim is desperately trying to prove that he is the oracle now and forever for which NJ laws will be actively enforced. I get that LEOs and attorneys chiming in here have a vested interest in pretending no abuse of the law ever happens, since their livelihoods depend on the rest of us rubes having at least a grudging respect for the judicial system. But I don't get Maksim's obsession since by his own admission he no longer lives here.

Oh snap

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3 minutes ago, Zeke said:

Aren’t you good friends with your CLEO?

i think you said that when you were cutting up your mags..

Point... is your friend coming to your door? Or the mall?

He's doing whatever he is told to do by his political masters.

This forum has really opened my eyes to why NJ is the way it is. So many apologists for state encroachment on our constitutional rights.

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Just now, FedUpWithNJ said:

He's doing whatever he is told to do by his political masters.

This forum has really opened my eyes to why NJ is the way it is. So many apologists for state encroachment on our constitutional rights.

Well, we all cut up our mags at a party..

It wasn’t a good party though.

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Just now, FedUpWithNJ said:

 

This forum has really opened my eyes to why NJ is the way it is. So many apologists for state encroachment on our constitutional rights.

Says the guy who cut up his mags comply fully with the encroachment of constitutional rights. 

 

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2 minutes ago, fishnut said:

Says the guy who cut up his mags comply fully with the encroachment of constitutional rights. 

 

Hey!!! After the boating accident with @GramGun79 we found some more!

im laughing, I have no idea who’s boat that was. I left a note though “ sorry”

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Just now, fishnut said:

Says the guy who cut up his mags comply fully with the encroachment of constitutional rights. 

 

Yeah, I complied. I can't afford to be a felon. But I am not running around accusing people of fear-mongering when they point out the consequences of active enforcement of the new law. Is it Stockholm syndrome that makes you do this or something else? I am genuinely trying to understand.

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7 minutes ago, FedUpWithNJ said:

Yeah, I complied. I can't afford to be a felon. But I am not running around accusing people of fear-mongering when they point out the consequences of active enforcement of the new law. Is it Stockholm syndrome that makes you do this or something else? I am genuinely trying to understand.

Lol?

youve said you moved here for work, and stayed for freedom.

um, have you read the constitution?

Stepped in it is an understatement sis

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32 minutes ago, FedUpWithNJ said:

Maksim is desperately trying to prove that he is the oracle now and forever for which NJ laws will be actively enforced. I get that LEOs and attorneys chiming in here have a vested interest in pretending no abuse of the law ever happens, since their livelihoods depend on the rest of us rubes having at least a grudging respect for the judicial system. But I don't get Maksim's obsession since by his own admission he no longer lives here.

LOL.  

Actually, I have ZERO issue with you... or any member for that member thinking the cops are out to get them or the helicopters are coming.  ZERO.... Everyone is entitled to their opinion.  This is not what this whole topic was about.

This was all about 2A authorities fear mongering something that was not likely to happen, as a certainty.  That is all that this is about.

But... I do take issue with.... 

"LEOs and attorneys chiming in here have a vested interest in pretending no abuse of the law ever happens, since their livelihoods depend on the rest of us rubes having at least a grudging respect for the judicial system."

No one is denying there are not abuses in the system... but this comment is completely wrong about the LEO members here, who are community members... and IF ANYTHING... would likely be the first to stand up for US.

With that mindset... if you are not going to have any faith at all in the judicial system... why live in America in the first place?  If you know you are getting screwed... why not move to the middle east or China?

There is "tinfoil" and then there is TINFOIL.... believing people are out to get you.... the 4th degree crime of possessing high capacity mags is the least of the issues.

Anyone should wish to have the police blow through your doors to look for high capacity magazines... (if you did not have any warrants or commit any other crimes).... because it will mean a big fat suit for civil liberties violations that will move you from anytown NJ to Rumson or Alpine. 

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33 minutes ago, FedUpWithNJ said:

Maksim is desperately trying to prove that he is the oracle now and forever for which NJ laws will be actively enforced. I get that LEOs and attorneys chiming in here have a vested interest in pretending no abuse of the law ever happens, since their livelihoods depend on the rest of us rubes having at least a grudging respect for the judicial system. But I don't get Maksim's obsession since by his own admission he no longer lives here.

Well I still live here and agree with him..  

 

46 minutes ago, FedUpWithNJ said:

My city has about 5,000 distinct addresses. I'm guessing less than 10% of the current owners at those addresses have purchased handguns here. Even if the records are not entered into a database, that's a trivial search for my local pd.

You’re clueless on the time and manpower it would take to execute search warrants across the state!  This isn’t the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany yet.. 

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2 hours ago, Screwball said:

And...?

Unless you are going to prove that police were there because they hunted down every Marlin “assault rifle,” reading it is pointless to the discussion. And no... they didn’t hunt down that rifle.

NJ V Pelleteri shows that all bets are off with respect to the NJ judiciary when guns are involved, including your bet that they'll uphold your 4th amendment rights. A judge that is willing to throw our mens rea for the most trivial infraction because guns!! will find a way to reconcile curtailment of your 4th amendment rights with his vision of "justice".

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