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Bergen County Prosecutor Says LEOs Not exempt

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On 12/18/2018 at 8:25 AM, TheWind said:

That Sheriff's officer should be criminally charged. If it happens where we are present, we have to act.

It is well established that there is no duty to act.

DeShaney v. Winnebago County  (1989)

Castle Rock v. Gonzales (2005)

Warren v. District of Columbia (1981) (DC Court of Appeals)

Balistreri v. Pacifica Police Department (1990) (9th circuit court of appeals)

 

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10 hours ago, b47356 said:

It is well established that there is no duty to act.

DeShaney v. Winnebago County  (1989)

Castle Rock v. Gonzales (2005)

Warren v. District of Columbia (1981) (DC Court of Appeals)

Balistreri v. Pacifica Police Department (1990) (9th circuit court of appeals)

 

Apples and oranges, those cases are involved with domestic violence and one of a reported burglary. The whole premise is the establishment of a special relationship. If a restraining order created a special relationship you would need to go on a major hiring of police.  Also the last case had major issues with the way it was filed, technicalities get many cases dismissed. Domestic cases are a slippery slope. I know of one where a friend was in jail for 17 days, guess what, his alibi was the NJSP.  Another one charged with rape, was cleared when the plaintiff's own security cameras cleared him.  School officers are in a special relationship as they to protect. If it occurs in front of me, I see or I hear and I have a duty to react. You tell me someone hit you yesterday, it is file a report and investigate.

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19 hours ago, b47356 said:

It is well established that there is no duty to act.

DeShaney v. Winnebago County  (1989)

Castle Rock v. Gonzales (2005)

Warren v. District of Columbia (1981) (DC Court of Appeals)

Balistreri v. Pacifica Police Department (1990) (9th circuit court of appeals)

 

While courts have established police have no duty to protect you other than isolated incidents how often does it happen?

You're posting what courts say not what cops do.

How often do you read "off duty officer" makes arrest or takes action.  Yes I know someone will pull up "off duty officer involved in DWI" or some such thing.

I'm not saying I agree with any magazine law.

Why do people want to take their frustrations over this out on cops?

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2 minutes ago, GRIZ said:

While courts have established police have no duty to protect you other than isolated incidents how often does it happen?

You're posting what courts say not what cops do.

How often do you read "off duty officer" makes arrest or takes action.  Yes I know someone will pull up "off duty officer involved in DWI" or some such thing.

I'm not saying I agree with any magazine law.

Why do people want to take their frustrations over this out on cops?

2013:

Man Who Stopped Maksim Gelman Learns Cops Aren’t Obligated To Protect People From Being Stabbed

Poor Joseph Lozito. If you don’t remember, Lozito was the man who heroically stopped Maksim Gelman, the murderous, knife-wielding lunatic, by wrestling him to the ground and receiving multiple stab wounds – all while cops looked on and did nothing.

As we’ve previously reported, Lozito took his case to court, arguing that officers should have helped him while he made the effort to pin down Gelman, but now the New York Post is reporting that a judge has thrown out the case on the grounds that officers were not obligated to protect Lozito during the fight.

Lozito, 42, recognized Gelman, who was on the run for murdering four people around Sheepshead Bay in February 2011, on a subway car and tackled him to the ground. In the scuffle, Lozito suffered seven stab wounds mainly to the back of the head and face. According to Lozito’s account, two police officers, Terrance Howell and Tamara Taylor, did nothing until Lozito managed to pin Gelman to the ground, instead taking cover in the adjacent operator’s cab.

https://bklyner.com/judge-rules-that-cops-arent-obligated-to-protect-people-being-stabbed-in-plain-sight-sheepshead-bay/

 

Both cops received commendations.

 

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11 minutes ago, 124gr9mm said:

2013:

Man Who Stopped Maksim Gelman Learns Cops Aren’t Obligated To Protect People From Being Stabbed

Poor Joseph Lozito. If you don’t remember, Lozito was the man who heroically stopped Maksim Gelman, the murderous, knife-wielding lunatic, by wrestling him to the ground and receiving multiple stab wounds – all while cops looked on and did nothing.

As we’ve previously reported, Lozito took his case to court, arguing that officers should have helped him while he made the effort to pin down Gelman, but now the New York Post is reporting that a judge has thrown out the case on the grounds that officers were not obligated to protect Lozito during the fight.

Lozito, 42, recognized Gelman, who was on the run for murdering four people around Sheepshead Bay in February 2011, on a subway car and tackled him to the ground. In the scuffle, Lozito suffered seven stab wounds mainly to the back of the head and face. According to Lozito’s account, two police officers, Terrance Howell and Tamara Taylor, did nothing until Lozito managed to pin Gelman to the ground, instead taking cover in the adjacent operator’s cab.

https://bklyner.com/judge-rules-that-cops-arent-obligated-to-protect-people-being-stabbed-in-plain-sight-sheepshead-bay/

 

Both cops received commendations.

 

Cherry picking to make your point. 

How about posting the thousands of times cops do the right thing?

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4 hours ago, GRIZ said:

Cherry picking to make your point. 

How about posting the thousands of times cops do the right thing?

IT was actually the first thing that came to mind, so i wasn't cherry picking.  I could use my google-fu and find more but what's the point?

I'm actually over the top "pro LEO", but I posted that to illustrate the point that at the end of the day the police are in a different class than the rest of us regular citizens.  They have special rules for themselves, protect each other from being charged with things that the rest of us get charged with, ignore rules/laws that we otherwise have to follow, and they ultimately have a mindset that whatever they do is OK as long as they "get to go back to their families at night".

Believe it or not, none of that really bothers me.  They have a tough job so I can turn a blind eye to the nonsense, and almost ALL of the LEO's I know wouldn't hesitate to charge into danger for me.

THat said, we're crossing into dangerous territory if LEO's would be taking an active role in taking away gun rights from the rest of us.  Most times they're a reactive force who comes after shit's gone down, so I'm on the hook to protect me and my family. 

Hopefully we'll see some Supreme Court challenges that render this discussion moot.

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On 12/20/2018 at 8:12 AM, TheWind said:

Apples and oranges,

No, it really isn't.

On 12/20/2018 at 8:12 AM, TheWind said:

The whole premise is the establishment of a special relationship.

It will probably surprise you that it only seems to apply to those in custody.

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/parkland/florida-school-shooting/fl-ne-douglas-survivor-lawsuit-federal-judge-20181217-story.html

On 12/20/2018 at 4:34 PM, GRIZ said:

While courts have established police have no duty to protect you other than isolated incidents how often does it happen?

You will have to give an example, since an incident would have to occur with the police standing right there when it started.

On 12/20/2018 at 5:11 PM, Zeke said:

Guys here jus want Ill focused blame.

Or some are just tired of special protected classes in NJ wrt firearms law.

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My 2 cents most leo are good people like everyone here, the ones that are here and believe it or not most in general are pro 2a,. Duty to act on duty is a must. common sense dictates situation, example off duty in a bank store, etc, may turn into a huge shit show w hostages and people killed if a leo pulls his weapon when he should just be a good witness, if bad guys just want cash then go. The school shooting was a truely horrible situation. one cop in an unknown badguy situation its a personal decision, usually 2 to 3 leos go in as a team if you have the time to wait , if you dont  have time then myself and most of the guys I know would have gone in by themselves knowing there is a 50/50 chance. Yes i know thats what we signed up for, so be it. 

I believe alot has to do with the pool of candidates , they used to be very strict, now standards are being lowered so , the quality slips. most of the guys Ive trained i have seen the attitudes of modern day society ingrained in them , with the exception of former military now becoming officers. I did not have to train the concept of teamwork and common sense into them. example there used to be a time in this country where one stood up to do the right thing regardless, now I see the me first attitude more prevalent than ever. Also Training budgets are exhausted to the minimum. 

Good cops hate bad cops as all their hard work goes down the shitter when a few bad apples surface. 

At the PD there are policies in place that one shall may speak out in any fashion against anything the township or PD, these policies carry severe discipline with them. LEOS obviously have a duty not to carry out illegal or unconstitutional orders. officers are not immune from criminal or civil cases against them, the burden of proof for a civil case is way lower than criminal case. I walk a fine line because i have been on both sides of the coin. I see both sides of the argument. Most officers are careful in their words when asked about these gray areas as they dammed one way or the other.  I suspect the truthful answers will be gathered from ones that you have a close relationship with knowing your not going to get them in a heap o trouble.

Do I get certain perks from being former leo such as carry and 15 round mags for my carry weapon, yes, but thats as far as it goes. I have to qual and pass twice a year and restricted to the most dangerous ammo out there FMJ, they grey area is the hornandy stuff. And in this state it would be a disaster to actually shoot someone in self defense for me, retired as i have no protection by law(stand your ground etc) nor any township attorney provided to me, even if not guilty criminally the civil case would certainly bankrupt me. As i interpret the current law, the 15 round mags are limited to the actual carry gun, my others are now restricted as well as my long guns like everyone else.

Im not here to argue with anyone, nor dont take this post and make anything more out of it as it is not meant to divide. 

I really dont know what the answer is anymore except to try and make your little piece of the world make sense to you , thats all you can do, this state is in precarious times, my buddy and i used to joke that one day the country will be broken up not physically but spiritually  into sections where ones politics are similair. im afraid that time may have come sooner than later.

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One of my ex partners shot someone through the neck during a motor vehicle stop of a stolen car, they lived as they were dragging his partner by motor vehicle, at the grand jury, the prosecutor presents the case to the jurors as per former ag guidlines. Open shut right? he saved a fellow officer from being crushed to death. after the presentation of the facts, one of the jurors, asked the officer "why did you really shot that black man"?  the officers very freedom was hanging on by a thread by a society that is already prejudicial against good officers doing their job, that was a scary and tense situation for sure, That very question crushed that officer for the rest of his career as he did not act by virtue of the suspects color or ethnicity.

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On 12/20/2018 at 5:11 PM, Zeke said:

Uncle @GRIZ. The press and sheeple are at war with LEO local and federal. Guys here jus want Ill focused blame.

My concern.. after Dallas why are they still doing this propaganda?

Dallas should have been a huge wake up call to LE across the land and the dem support their leadership provides. 

I'll say till I'm blue in the face, police do a disservice to themselves and the profession when they circle the wagons blindly

29 minutes ago, 70gto said:

One of my ex partners shot someone through the neck during a motor vehicle stop of a stolen car, they lived as they were dragging his partner by motor vehicle, at the grand jury, the prosecutor presents the case to the jurors as per former ag guidlines. Open shut right? he saved a fellow officer from being crushed to death. after the presentation of the facts, one of the jurors, asked the officer "why did you really shot that black man"?  the officers very freedom was hanging on by a thread by a society that is already prejudicial against good officers doing their job, that was a scary and tense situation for sure, That very question crushed that officer for the rest of his career as he did not act by virtue of the suspects color or ethnicity.

sickening!!!!!!  officer deserved a reward!

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3 minutes ago, myhatinthering said:

Dallas should have been a huge wake up call to LE across the land and the dem support their leadership provides. 

I'll say till I'm blue in the face, police do a disservice to themselves and the profession when they circle the wagons blindly

sickening!!!!!!  officer deserved a reward!

It’s becoming that stupid movie with Leary, snipes and bullock. 

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In Law Enforcement we have those that make the rules and those of us that do the job. The special ones write P&P to protect the agency and they can blame us.  I have been suspended because I did what was right. I saved an inmates life and was yelled at. I violated the rules because the Sgts didn't do their job and I was the only one available in the whole building. There are many like me, we will go the extra mile to protect people we do not know.

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1 hour ago, TheWind said:

In Law Enforcement we have those that make the rules and those of us that do the job. The special ones write P&P to protect the agency and they can blame us.  I have been suspended because I did what was right. I saved an inmates life and was yelled at. I violated the rules because the Sgts didn't do their job and I was the only one available in the whole building. There are many like me, we will go the extra mile to protect people we do not know.

well I dont have to tell you to do this right thing, nobody can fault you at the end of the day. you answer to yourself in the mirror. this was my primary goal when i became a sergeant, to support the good guys in the ranks.  now i had a platoon of good men and women .  texas and places like pa better wake up and see the slow creep. what makes my head hurt is people move away from the hell holes they help create only to vote the same and recreate the same conditions they escaped from

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Hey 70GTO, we need more Sgts. like you, we had one caught in the office crying like a little girl, he was upset the LT. was hard on him, he was one of the worst LTs I saw.  My dad was a sgt, in WW2, He told me lead from the front and never ask anyone to do wha you can't

 

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8 minutes ago, TheWind said:

Hey 70GTO, we need more Sgts. like you, we had one caught in the office crying like a little girl, he was upset the LT. was hard on him, he was one of the worst LTs I saw.  My dad was a sgt, in WW2, He told me lead from the front and never ask anyone to do wha you can't

 

omg , I cant even comment to that, that sgt  better grow a set and fast. be careful with people like that , once they think they got their shot together, they will often overcompensate to prove a point.   Hey bud anubody can have a weak moment but really because the LT. was mean to me. remember that and never be like that . your dad is correct lead from the front, never ask your men to do what you wont or havnt done. and thanks for the compliment that means alot to me. I think because i came on later on in life, I had experience in getting my ass handed to me in life. that I had a different point of view on things, watch your six inside and outside HQ. I know active duty officers have to watch everything they post because thats the way it is, so think before do, just general advice, not specifically at you just in general. 

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21 minutes ago, 70gto said:

omg , I cant even comment to that, that sgt  better grow a set and fast. be careful with people like that , once they think they got their shot together, they will often overcompensate to prove a point.   Hey bud anubody can have a weak moment but really because the LT. was mean to me. remember that and never be like that . your dad is correct lead from the front, never ask your men to do what you wont or havnt done. and thanks for the compliment that means alot to me. I think because i came on later on in life, I had experience in getting my ass handed to me in life. that I had a different point of view on things, watch your six inside and outside HQ. I know active duty officers have to watch everything they post because thats the way it is, so think before do, just general advice, not specifically at you just in general. 

so on point!

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39 minutes ago, 70gto said:

omg , I cant even comment to that, that sgt  better grow a set and fast. be careful with people like that , once they think they got their shot together, they will often overcompensate to prove a point.   Hey bud anubody can have a weak moment but really because the LT. was mean to me. remember that and never be like that . your dad is correct lead from the front, never ask your men to do what you wont or havnt done. and thanks for the compliment that means alot to me. I think because i came on later on in life, I had experience in getting my ass handed to me in life. that I had a different point of view on things, watch your six inside and outside HQ. I know active duty officers have to watch everything they post because thats the way it is, so think before do, just general advice, not specifically at you just in general. 

He is a Captain now

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