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Matthew Lutz

Potential loophole to P2P transfers

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So the thought dawned on me today... what if two private parties, both of whom live in NJ, decide to drive to PA or DE to do a P2P transaction? It seems to be something of a grey area in terms of whether or not it is legal, Federally. NJ law would not apply as they have no jurisdiction in PA or DE. The Federal regulation reads as follows (link below):

"An unlicensed individual may transfer a firearm to another unlicensed individual residing in the same State, provided that he or she has no reason to believe the buyer is prohibited by law from possessing firearms."

In the example above, both parties reside in the same state. Its just that the transaction is taking place in a different state. As far as I'm aware, there is no federal regulation that explicitly states that two residents of one state may not conduct the transaction in a different state. I suppose there might be a PA (or DE) law that prohibits this sort of thing, but if there is, I'm not aware of it. You would certainly be wise to go out of your way to prove that the transaction took place in PA through video or photo documentation, just in case it ever becomes an issue.

This is probably one of those things that nobody would ever be brave enough to test, but I kind of wish someone would bc I think you'd have a sound legal argument.

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4 minutes ago, Zeke said:

handgun have to go through ffl in purchasing residents state. That’s federal.

Long guns can be ffl in either sellers or buyers state. Again, federal 

 

Thats if you are selling to a party who LIVES in another state. In the example above, both the seller and purchaser reside in the same state. There is no federal regulation that I'm aware of that specifies that two residents of the same state must conduct the transaction in their home state.

 

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I’ve been buying handguns out of state on my FFL-03. That is completely legal, without a pistol permit... but if I buy from an NJ resident/dealer inside NJ, I have to do it on a pistol permit. I have my .25 Colt and now a Oswald type S&W Victory revolver that are in my A&D book, without getting pistol permits. I openly say that is because screw NJ, which really isn’t illegal. I will literally drive out of NJ to keep this state from getting a dime for a pistol permit and/or NICS. As long as I am following Federal law, I can do that... still with the middle finger directed to NJ.

Problem with that is going to be just driving out of the state to not do the NICS. Can cut it whatever way you want, but that is pretty clear. I don’t know how it works in regards to state or federal law with two people (residents) conducting a transaction outside of the state. If law states how carl_g mentioned, then you can’t buy a pistol outside of your state... unless you are an FFL.

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Matthew Lutz,

Will you be using a P2P? What happens when the NJSP get their copy? 

It should work for long guns.

3 minutes ago, Zeke said:

Ok @PK90 educate me then

He is talking face to face for same state residents. Federally legal. NJ can't tell you what to do in another state.

 

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1 minute ago, PK90 said:

Matthew Lutz,

Will you be using a P2P? What happens when the NJSP get their copy? 

It should work for long guns.

He is talking face to face for same state residents. Federally legal. NJ can't tell you what to do in another state.

 

Hmmn .

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Federal law says that in addition to Federal law you must adhere to laws in the state(s) you reside in. That means state(s) in which you own a residence and live there some of the time. Two NJ residents who don't both own residences in PA can't drive into PA to complete a private transaction. (And if they did, PA law would require a FFL to complete a handgun transfer.)

We have residences in both states. The ATF says we must abide by the (Federal and) state laws where we are at the time. When we're in NJ we must abide by NJ laws.(:() When we're in PA we must abide by PA laws. (^_^) We have done both. And in PA as spouses we can transfer handguns to each other with no paperwork, as well as other specified relatives.

Nice try though.

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So to simplify it:

for anything but handguns

Federal law states P2P transfer between two people of the same state doesn’t have to go through FFL

Law does not dictate that transfer occur in or comply with their state of residence

therefor: two people from nj could go to DE and do a P2P transfer, complaint with DE law, then return to N.J. 

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1 minute ago, voyager9 said:

So to simplify it:

for anything but handguns

Federal law states P2P transfer between two people of the same state doesn’t have to go through FFL

Law does not dictate that transfer occur in or comply with their state of residence

therefor: two people from nj could go to DE and do a P2P transfer, complaint with DE law, then return to N.J. 

Wrong. See my post above. In what state(s) do you reside?

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Just now, PK90 said:

Was the COE ever changed to a 4 part form? Do dealers and NJSP get copies?

I can see this for long guns, I cannot see this for handguns. You took the Camden corner and moved it to another state.

which, hell, might be legal.

let me ask this. What can I buy as an American citizen whom resides permanently in nj on vacation in Arizona?

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1 minute ago, 45Doll said:

Wrong. See my post above. In what state(s) do you reside?

Confusion, usually. 

But that’s a different matter.  On the subject at hand it appears there is some pushback on your comment. If you’re right, then I agree my post is wrong.  Need clarification on your point, though. 

3 minutes ago, Zeke said:

 What can I buy as an American citizen whom resides permanently in nj on vacation in Arizona?

Real estate. 

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1 minute ago, PK90 said:

If no Authority gets a COE copy, and there is no requirement to keep a copy, why drive out of state? In fact, why even do a COE? Trade gun and cash and STFU.

Praise Jesus

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16 minutes ago, 45Doll said:

OK. For simplicity don't take my opinion for anything. Read the NJ and PA firearms statutes, and ATF Ruling 2010-6.

You are right.

Quote

 

USC 922(a)(3) Unlawful acts

It shall be unlawful for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph

(A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State,

(B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) {DEALER TRANSFERS} of this section, and

(C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter.

 

Soooo, the transfer is legal, but you can't bring it into NJ.

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1 hour ago, PK90 said:

If no Authority gets a COE copy, and there is no requirement to keep a copy, why drive out of state? In fact, why even do a COE? Trade gun and cash and STFU.

See prior comment about street dealers...

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7 hours ago, Screwball said:

 I will literally drive out of NJ to keep this state from getting a dime for a pistol permit and/or NICS. As long as I am following Federal law, I can do that... still with the middle finger directed to NJ.

 

Let me know how that works out if you get caught with a multitude of items.  

Just follow the law.  It sucks.  But not following it and becoming a test case is something I wouldn't wish on anyone.  

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33 minutes ago, Bully said:

Let me know how that works out if you get caught with a multitude of items.  

Just follow the law.  It sucks.  But not following it and becoming a test case is something I wouldn't wish on anyone.  

It works out fine, per ATF...

The FFL-03 allows me to purchase eligible firearms out of state. If I got it years before, would have been the exact same as now (wish I did, would have been a lot easier). No issue... judging firearms are legal in the state I live in. NJ cannot override Federal law on the other side of the Delaware River... and I would love to see them try and argue that.

An M1 Carbine is C&R, but it is also an “assault weapon” in NJ law. Not legal for me to go and buy one in PA, as my license is registered to my home in NJ (also, per ATF). If I get audited, that is going to be an issue. But when I applied for my FFL-03, following state law was a very clearly mentioned on the application as a requirement for a collector, and was right along with not engaging in a business.

Buying a pistol legally outside of NJ is no issue. Anyone who lived outside of NJ couldn’t bring their legally purchased handguns into NJ when they moved (judging they comply with NJ laws)? Legally, you can buy a blackpowder revolver out of state... don’t need to get a pistol permit on the way back, but you do have to follow NJ transportation laws. What about building your own firearm (80% lowers)? You build one in PA (legal), judging everything else with the build is covered by NJ law... what are they going to charge you with? Manufacturing of a firearm in NJ... when you didn’t do it within NJ. That last one might be harder to defend/prove... but a receipt would prove the blackpowder revolver was legally acquired. Never heard of anyone being jammed up for an “unregistered” handgun that they bought when they lived out of state... especially considering the NJSP puts out a form to register, stating clearly in the title, “VOLUNTARY Form of Firearms Registration.”

https://www.njsp.org/firearms/pdf/sp-650.pdf

In regards to being a test case, of what? I have modern pistols on my list of guns I’m going to purchase... and all have a “when out of NJ” next to them. My FFL-03 doesn’t allow me to purchase those, so I will wait until I can legally do it in Maine (not wanting to pay the fees is part... other part is I’m not getting compliant magazines, that won’t have a use by end of August, which is when I’ll be up there). If I go to the Oaks gun show, and see a Colt or S&W M1917, a Makarov (East German or Russian are C&R), a CZ-52, or an older J-frame/Colt Cobra... at a decent price... I’ll buy it. I’ll post it up on here, and people can link the NJSP to it, if they want. They can have the ATF inspect my book/firearms, as everything is done legally.

None of those guns break NJ law, and the process of an FFL-03 purchasing them out of state is Federally legal, as well. If I was buying handguns, and selling them to NJ residents without pistol permits/NICS (if I sold to another FFL-03, would still need to fill out a pistol permit), then yes... that is a hazardous situation that would likely wind me up in the clinker. But considering the pistol permits state that they are only for use within NJ (more for non-FFLs/unlicensed persons from NJ trying to purchase a handgun at a PA FFL, which is illegal Federally), those who can legally purchase outside of NJ don’t need to use them. Is that a large number of people? Not at all... but I will use it to build up my collection in the limited time I’m still here.

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Well...  Legally speaking, per ATF, you can also purchase an 80% lower.  You can also purchase a supressor.  You can also purchase an SBR.  

I'll wait and see how it works out for you if you get caught with one of those in NJ.  I'm not saying that you won't be scott free at the end of it.  However considering legal fees, is the juice worth the squeeze.  

Additionally not every one has an FFL 03.  Not everyone wants one.  Or has need for one.  I'm glad you have yours and are comfortable pushing the boundaries.  But remember, even when you're right in NJ, it's gonna cost you to prove it.

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4 minutes ago, Bully said:

Well...  Legally speaking, per ATF, you can also purchase an 80% lower.  You can also purchase a supressor.  You can also purchase an SBR.  

I'll wait and see how it works out for you if you get caught with one of those in NJ.  I'm not saying that you won't be scott free at the end of it.  However considering legal fees, is the juice worth the squeeze.  

Additionally not every one has an FFL 03.  Not everyone wants one.  Or has need for one.  I'm glad you have yours and are comfortable pushing the boundaries.  But remember, even when you're right in NJ, it's gonna cost you to prove it.

Actually... you can’t. ATF is very clear on their Form 1 that they will not approve an application that violates state or local law. So, SBRs and silencers are not directly obtainable to NJ residences opposed to those who live in other states with less restrictions. You can apply, but will be denied.

NJ, you can possess an 80% lower. The act of finishing it within the state is illegal... unless you have a manufacturers license. Don’t remember if those laws on serial numbers passed... but my post did say if it complied with NJ law. I’ll admit, if you get jammed up, it is more of a legal headache proving that... but to say NJ law stops someone from doing something legal in PA is far from accurate. It is implying worse restrictions on people whose rights all already restricted. Why not say that firearms like the Shockwave/TAC-14 are illegal, as well? Give up more rights, because guns are so frowned upon.

But when it comes down to it, if the source of the firearm is being questioned... you are likely past the normal worry of firearms law. I would love to see how L/E is going to have the knowledge that the Colt .25 I picked up in PA is not “registered,” and going to jam me up on it (judging I’m following the law, which I am; technically, it is registered... in my A&D book)... but again, that is the same thought process of saying a retired officer from out of state, who legally purchased his sidearm, is going to be jammed up (judging he follows the law in regards to magazines and other aspects). Remember, being psychic isn’t a requirement for L/E.

Minus the business aspect (zoning, town ordinances, etc) and fingerprinting, getting an FFL-03 is similar to getting an FFL-01. ATF comes down and talks to you, and even before that, you send a copy of the application to the Chief LEO of your jurisdiction. It isn’t a secret that I have this license... but just because you or a majority of people don’t have it, doesn’t mean I’m doing illegal or questionable stuff. You can look up the regulations just the same as I have done, considering I don’t plan on breaking the laws. You can contact the ATF regarding it (don’t know if they are affected with the shutdown). If you see a law that I broke in either of those two handgun purchases (both done in PA, with non-NJ sellers; inputted into my A&D book the same day), post it up. I know there aren’t any... but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt.

In regards to not having an FFL-03... people can do whatever they wish. Never said that anyone had to get it. This thread is about purchasing a pistol outside of NJ legally. An FFL-03 can. You quoted me, leaving out that part, implying I’m doing something wrong. While limited use, that license allows someone to purchase a pistol legally outside of their state of residence... as long as they follow the laws in their jurisdiction. Within NJ, pistol permits are required... and I personally will not go for one, and give one extra penny to this state. If I did buy a pistol off my license within NJ, I’m getting to the point where I might not get it back by the time I leave. Nothing wrong with that, as I’ll purchase firearms that can be legally acquired off my FFL-03, and wait until I’m in Maine to get anything else. NJ law doesn’t directly say I must buy all pistols within state lines. Federally, it is generally a rule of thumb.

For non-FFLs, it is said that a pistol from someone out of state... you must receive it at an FFL within your state. The question asked about two NJ residents doing the transfer outside of NJ is interesting... but I personally don’t see it as a logical argument (you both drove out of state, to get around state law). Only way I could see it being used is to get around the transportation laws... and it’s questionable at best. But that is a question for ATF, as it is moving into Federal law. I’ll take a look in the 2014 Regulations book sometime today, but don’t know if it specifically states it must be done in state.

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