Potential loophole to P2P transfers

[remixer 1,645]

15 hours ago, PK90 said:

Matthew Lutz,

Will you be using a P2P? What happens when the NJSP get their copy? 

It should work for long guns.

He is talking face to face for same state residents. Federally legal. NJ can't tell you what to do in another state.

 

Are you talking about 2 NJ residents driving to PA to do a FTF (No Dealer or Nics)?

 

[Bully 749]

1 hour ago, Screwball said:

Actually... you can’t. ATF is very clear on their Form 1 that they will not approve an application that violates state or local law. So, SBRs and silencers are not directly obtainable to NJ residences opposed to those who live in other states with less restrictions. You can apply, but will be denied.

NJ, you can possess an 80% lower. The act of finishing it within the state is illegal... unless you have a manufacturers license. Don’t remember if those laws on serial numbers passed... but my post did say if it complied with NJ law. I’ll admit, if you get jammed up, it is more of a legal headache proving that... but to say NJ law stops someone from doing something legal in PA is far from accurate. It is implying worse restrictions on people whose rights all already restricted. Why not say that firearms like the Shockwave/TAC-14 are illegal, as well? Give up more rights, because guns are so frowned upon.

But when it comes down to it, if the source of the firearm is being questioned... you are likely past the normal worry of firearms law. I would love to see how L/E is going to have the knowledge that the Colt .25 I picked up in PA is not “registered,” and going to jam me up on it (judging I’m following the law, which I am; technically, it is registered... in my A&D book)... but again, that is the same thought process of saying a retired officer from out of state, who legally purchased his sidearm, is going to be jammed up (judging he follows the law in regards to magazines and other aspects). Remember, being psychic isn’t a requirement for L/E.

Minus the business aspect (zoning, town ordinances, etc) and fingerprinting, getting an FFL-03 is similar to getting an FFL-01. ATF comes down and talks to you, and even before that, you send a copy of the application to the Chief LEO of your jurisdiction. It isn’t a secret that I have this license... but just because you or a majority of people don’t have it, doesn’t mean I’m doing illegal or questionable stuff. You can look up the regulations just the same as I have done, considering I don’t plan on breaking the laws. You can contact the ATF regarding it (don’t know if they are affected with the shutdown). If you see a law that I broke in either of those two handgun purchases (both done in PA, with non-NJ sellers; inputted into my A&D book the same day), post it up. I know there aren’t any... but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt.

In regards to not having an FFL-03... people can do whatever they wish. Never said that anyone had to get it. This thread is about purchasing a pistol outside of NJ legally. An FFL-03 can. You quoted me, leaving out that part, implying I’m doing something wrong. While limited use, that license allows someone to purchase a pistol legally outside of their state of residence... as long as they follow the laws in their jurisdiction. Within NJ, pistol permits are required... and I personally will not go for one, and give one extra penny to this state. If I did buy a pistol off my license within NJ, I’m getting to the point where I might not get it back by the time I leave. Nothing wrong with that, as I’ll purchase firearms that can be legally acquired off my FFL-03, and wait until I’m in Maine to get anything else. NJ law doesn’t directly say I must buy all pistols within state lines. Federally, it is generally a rule of thumb.

For non-FFLs, it is said that a pistol from someone out of state... you must receive it at an FFL within your state. The question asked about two NJ residents doing the transfer outside of NJ is interesting... but I personally don’t see it as a logical argument (you both drove out of state, to get around state law). Only way I could see it being used is to get around the transportation laws... and it’s questionable at best. But that is a question for ATF, as it is moving into Federal law. I’ll take a look in the 2014 Regulations book sometime today, but don’t know if it specifically states it must be done in state.

Good deal.  I'm happily proven incorrect.  

It happens more often that I'd like to admit.  Thank you for the schooling.

[PK90 3,570]

Just now, remixer said:

Are you talking about 2 NJ residents driving to PA to do a FTF (No Dealer or Nics)?

 

Asked and answered. Try to keep up.

[remixer 1,645]

Just now, PK90 said:

Asked and answered. Try to keep up. 

Figured you would save me the trouble....  

Guess not

[Smokin .50 1,907]

5 hours ago, Screwball said:

Actually... you can’t. ATF is very clear on their Form 1 that they will not approve an application that violates state or local law. So, SBRs and silencers are not directly obtainable to NJ residences opposed to those who live in other states with less restrictions. You can apply, but will be denied.

NJ, you can possess an 80% lower. The act of finishing it within the state is illegal... unless you have a manufacturers license. Don’t remember if those laws on serial numbers passed... but my post did say if it complied with NJ law. I’ll admit, if you get jammed up, it is more of a legal headache proving that... but to say NJ law stops someone from doing something legal in PA is far from accurate. It is implying worse restrictions on people whose rights all already restricted. Why not say that firearms like the Shockwave/TAC-14 are illegal, as well? Give up more rights, because guns are so frowned upon.

But when it comes down to it, if the source of the firearm is being questioned... you are likely past the normal worry of firearms law. I would love to see how L/E is going to have the knowledge that the Colt .25 I picked up in PA is not “registered,” and going to jam me up on it (judging I’m following the law, which I am; technically, it is registered... in my A&D book)... but again, that is the same thought process of saying a retired officer from out of state, who legally purchased his sidearm, is going to be jammed up (judging he follows the law in regards to magazines and other aspects). Remember, being psychic isn’t a requirement for L/E.

Minus the business aspect (zoning, town ordinances, etc) and fingerprinting, getting an FFL-03 is similar to getting an FFL-01. ATF comes down and talks to you, and even before that, you send a copy of the application to the Chief LEO of your jurisdiction. It isn’t a secret that I have this license... but just because you or a majority of people don’t have it, doesn’t mean I’m doing illegal or questionable stuff. You can look up the regulations just the same as I have done, considering I don’t plan on breaking the laws. You can contact the ATF regarding it (don’t know if they are affected with the shutdown). If you see a law that I broke in either of those two handgun purchases (both done in PA, with non-NJ sellers; inputted into my A&D book the same day), post it up. I know there aren’t any... but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt.

In regards to not having an FFL-03... people can do whatever they wish. Never said that anyone had to get it. This thread is about purchasing a pistol outside of NJ legally. An FFL-03 can. You quoted me, leaving out that part, implying I’m doing something wrong. While limited use, that license allows someone to purchase a pistol legally outside of their state of residence... as long as they follow the laws in their jurisdiction. Within NJ, pistol permits are required... and I personally will not go for one, and give one extra penny to this state. If I did buy a pistol off my license within NJ, I’m getting to the point where I might not get it back by the time I leave. Nothing wrong with that, as I’ll purchase firearms that can be legally acquired off my FFL-03, and wait until I’m in Maine to get anything else. NJ law doesn’t directly say I must buy all pistols within state lines. Federally, it is generally a rule of thumb.

For non-FFLs, it is said that a pistol from someone out of state... you must receive it at an FFL within your state. The question asked about two NJ residents doing the transfer outside of NJ is interesting... but I personally don’t see it as a logical argument (you both drove out of state, to get around state law). Only way I could see it being used is to get around the transportation laws... and it’s questionable at best. But that is a question for ATF, as it is moving into Federal law. I’ll take a look in the 2014 Regulations book sometime today, but don’t know if it specifically states it must be done in state.

Well stated.  Thanks for the insight!  Now let's blow some minds together, lol:

Take a breath, then ponder the thought that a NJ resident can own Class 3 weapons:

1.  If bought while residing in a "Free State", then transferred to a Trust & stored in PA.  

2.  Your input please:

 

Rosey

[PK90 3,570]

3 minutes ago, Smokin .50 said:

Well stated.  Thanks for the insight!  Now let's blow some minds together, lol:

Take a breath, then ponder the thought that a NJ resident can own Class 3 weapons:

1.  If bought while residing in a "Free State", then transferred to a Trust & stored in PA.  

2.  Your input please:

 

Rosey

You're only a NJ resident when in NJ, so no possession on NJ. You can own anything you want in other states. 

[Zeke 5,504]

6 minutes ago, Smokin .50 said:

Well stated.  Thanks for the insight!  Now let's blow some minds together, lol:

Take a breath, then ponder the thought that a NJ resident can own Class 3 weapons:

1.  If bought while residing in a "Free State", then transferred to a Trust & stored in PA.  

2.  Your input please:

 

Rosey

The problem we all have is “ the American citizen residing here “ clause. I think that’s because our rights are being suppressed by the state. 

[Ray Ray 3,566]

Awesome topic

[Screwball 483]

57 minutes ago, Smokin .50 said:

Well stated.  Thanks for the insight!  Now let's blow some minds together, lol:

Take a breath, then ponder the thought that a NJ resident can own Class 3 weapons:

1.  If bought while residing in a "Free State", then transferred to a Trust & stored in PA.  

2.  Your input please:

 

Rosey

Can just look into the regulations... question N19 gives you some options.

For the original topic, here is the online version of that reference guide.

https://www.atf.gov/file/11241/download

Page 197 and 198 discuss unlicensed persons (people without FFLs). ATF gives a lot of answers for basic questions on transfers and residency. While some points don’t say a pistol transfer must take place within the state if buyer/seller are both residents, most do say to contact State/local officials regarding those laws.

-God, I’d give a kidney to get Tapatalk back!

[BobA 1,235]

On 1/14/2019 at 6:42 PM, voyager9 said:

So to simplify it:

for anything but handguns

Federal law states P2P transfer between two people of the same state doesn’t have to go through FFL

Law does not dictate that transfer occur in or comply with their state of residence

therefor: two people from nj could go to DE and do a P2P transfer, complaint with DE law, then return to N.J. 

 

On 1/14/2019 at 12:59 PM, Matthew Lutz said:

So the thought dawned on me today... what if two private parties, both of whom live in NJ, decide to drive to PA or DE to do a P2P transaction? It seems to be something of a grey area in terms of whether or not it is legal, Federally. NJ law would not apply as they have no jurisdiction in PA or DE. The Federal regulation reads as follows (link below):

"An unlicensed individual may transfer a firearm to another unlicensed individual residing in the same State, provided that he or she has no reason to believe the buyer is prohibited by law from possessing firearms."

In the example above, both parties reside in the same state. Its just that the transaction is taking place in a different state. As far as I'm aware, there is no federal regulation that explicitly states that two residents of one state may not conduct the transaction in a different state. I suppose there might be a PA (or DE) law that prohibits this sort of thing, but if there is, I'm not aware of it. You would certainly be wise to go out of your way to prove that the transaction took place in PA through video or photo documentation, just in case it ever becomes an issue.

This is probably one of those things that nobody would ever be brave enough to test, but I kind of wish someone would bc I think you'd have a sound legal argument.

Nope. Believe me, if this could be done I’d had done it. I’ve covered 20 states over the past 3 years. Even Utah, South Dakota and Montana where they eat their Cheerios with an AR and no matter an FFL, flea market or private sale from the classifieds they all seem to know. They also know that NJ is where the gun haters give the country an enama. And once they get done laughing at me being from NJ they still say say no. 

[Matthew Lutz 56]

On 1/14/2019 at 7:14 PM, PK90 said:

USC 922(a)(3) Unlawful acts

It shall be unlawful for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph

(A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State,

(B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) {DEALER TRANSFERS} of this section, and

(C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter.

Ok. So THIS seems to answer the question in the original post. Thanks!

[Matthew Lutz 56]

As an aside...

#KeepICE

#AbolishATF