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JMich3

Should safety class be a permit requirement?

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I hated going to the range back when everyone was buying ARs during Obama’s stent. When you get muzzled with a 5.56mm, it isn’t too fun. Back when I was in school, I had nice blocks of time during the day when I could go to BA (at that time) and be the only one on the range.

What other fun did I see? Someone trying to retreive a fallen target by going down range without calling a ceasefire. Had one moron with a .22 or .25 shooting across three lanes at my target, which was causing his rounds to hit the wall (SS, years back... when they really didn’t give a s*** about safety).

I really don’t worry about someone intentionally shooting me at the range, because if they are going through all that (suicidal)... they likely aren’t interested in mowing everyone down (if they did, likely wouldn’t go to a shooting range where people are holding guns). People not respecting the rules or being dumbasses are what I worry about in regards to my well-being.

I agree... I don’t think training should be required. But I also would want people to take the initiative and get training before they put a slug into some poor guy that just happened to be a few lanes down. Don’t want that to poor guy to be me, as I’m sure most here wouldn’t. The few classes I took always let me walk away with something I didn’t know beforehand.

Hopefully, I’ll get around all that up in Maine. The couple properties I’m looking at are all over four acres (just saw another one list with 18 acres, still within means), so I should be able to set something up for my own personal range.

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13 hours ago, Ray Ray said:

@Ray Ray is waiting on a "yes" post.

Well...

There is one well known 2A "advocate" that was not opposed to requiring training to obtain FID/Permit.  I believe he said as much publicly as well. 

For me, absolutely, positively a no.  No training should be required to exercise a right.  Ever.  

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Training should not be a Governmental requirement to own a firearm... Just as a civics class is not a requirement to vote.

Private ranges would be smart to have RO's standing ready to help a new gun owner that is not up to speed on firearm safety and those veteran gun owners who disregard safety.
 

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IMO it should be no for the permit.  In NJ the permit itself is an administrative challenge to begin with, so to add another layer (and expense) of some kind of safety course would all but halt the process for many people and provide an excuse for LEO's or other "officials" to further hamstring the process.

If I owned a public range i would make it mandatory for anyone shooting without an FID to take a brief safety corse and recommend it to new or "comeback" shooters.

I started shooting as an adult, so I spent months reading books and watching video tutorials before I pulled the trigger for the first time, and I signed up for a basic handgun course when I purchased my first pistol.  When I hit the range for the first time I think I was better prepared than many of the others who were there that day.

 

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13 hours ago, Sniper said:

What if they wanted to take someone else "with them" standing nearby?

Well, murder is already illegal, and if they wanted to seriously commit mayhem, that 3000+  lb car they drove to the range and parked right outside would do a lot more damage.

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56 minutes ago, 10X said:

Well, murder is already illegal, and if they wanted to seriously commit mayhem, that 3000+  lb car they drove to the range and parked right outside would do a lot more damage.

The point was, if someone had serious enough mental illness that they wanted to take their own life, how can you be so sure one extra squeeze of the trigger can't be considered by them? You're assuming they can be logical in their thought processes. Bad assumption.

How many murder/suicides do you hear about in the news on a regular basis?

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20 minutes ago, Sniper said:

How many murder/suicides do you hear about in the news on a regular basis?

Too many, but they rarely involve taking the life of an innocent stranger.

If you're going to be killed in a murder/suicide, you'll almost certainly be taken out by a pissed-off family member, ex-lover, or maybe an ex-employee.  So don't take any of them to the range.

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I’d love to see a safety class taught in schools, the same way drivers ed is offered. Taking the class doesn’t mandate that you buy a car or gun, but at least you’d have a head start of knowing what to do if you find one in an emergency situation. Similarly, at least you’d know enough that if you happen upon one that you don’t do something that would create an emergency situation. JMHO. 

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To own, no.

To use the range, absolutely. Also, RSO's should be empowered to remove any unsafe shooters. And encouraged to step-in prior to anything unsafe occurring.

Sweep anybody, with a loaded or unloaded gun, bye-bye.

Shoot the walls/ceiling/floor, bye-bye.

Lose control of your firearm, bye-bye.

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No fed or state requirements, because you know, that silly 2A thing and we already have enough hoops to jump through. However, I can see a private range requiring whatever they want. Heck, we should be able to carry with what we already have to provide.

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Last year all my range time, was RPO, it is so nice to shoot with a bunch of old guys that 90% know what they are doing,  Shooting with people that have no knowledge, that scares me. Any time I took anyone out to shoot, it was a safety lecture first. But no mandatory class, shall not be infringed

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31 minutes ago, Handyman said:

Anyone have any stats on how many people have been injured at a range by another patron? I don't think I have ever heard of a single case. We might be trying to turn a theoretical problem into an actual problem.

It has happened.  There was a negligent shooting of a man in the leg at brick armory, and a murder-suicide at shore shot in 2008.  Statistically significant?  I'm not sure.

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On 1/17/2019 at 11:00 AM, JMich3 said:

Should safety class be a permit requirement?

80e14a5e19674a1879e09e6f6de7aeff.jpg

 

Serious answer:

required, on a state or federal level absolutely not. they let every idiot that can stand in a line drive a car.

however i am not oposed to the range making sure the "fudd/tryhard/tacticool/whatever" here next to me dosnt shoot me. had a buddys g/f point a loaded ar at my head  while fanning about 12-15 others.... id rather not have it happen unless were in a 2way range kinda world


stood next to a guy with a rented Deagle who was gonna hurt someone. ro intervened.
had a series of situations ignored because of yoga pants being in the range at the time

have had every staff members attention on me as we debate the merits of impure copper. (you dont want me to shoot it, fine, your place your rules, but dont talk down to me. i seldom admit to what i do know, dont beat me with your ignorance.)

i have had my target shot once, upper right corner of a full sized paper target. guy who shot it was a "veteran officer" who "took the new rookie" out to "show him how its done" had a black 90s swat vest and what can best be described as a tactical fanny pack.

theres idiots everywhere.

 

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its a commie thing. 

the long story short was RO with a hardon and a low seemingly IQ, but he needed like every other ro to stand behind him arms crossed and smiling. alot of attention to ignore every other port in the place, ya know

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I have had a couple scary ones, but much less than at civilian. Safety classes at a range are a requirement, for a permit, shall not be infringed comes to mind. But the same for a mental health issue, maybe that is a good requirement.

 

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There should be no infringement.  But I will add to that that with rights comes responsibilities.  If you want to exercise your rights take responsibility and educate yourself.  

Ranges on the other hand should have some way of vetting members.  Private ranges usually make new members attend safety classes or something of the like.  Those in the community need to reach out and help others be more safe.  If you see something unsafe happening speak up!  If someone has a malfunction then step in if they don't know what to do.  I joined a private range partially because of the added safety factor.  Some private ranges seem to let anyone in, though.  Most public ranges require some safety videos or something, and if someone goes to a range and they announce they are new, then staff should shadow them.  Some public ranges have it implemented that if  someone comes to a public range alone and does not already have his or her own firearms with him and wants to rent, then that person  cannot shoot, to avoid suicides.   I once took my adult niece to the range and she shot the roof.   I didn't let her proceed again until I was confident that that would not happen again.  I also took her when no one else was around.   I never thought to check ahead of time, but now I do with anyone going with me to the range.  She was opposite-eye dominant and wasn't aiming accurately.   I belonged to another private range that was used by some of its members as a money-making scheme where they taught NRA classes.  One time I was shooting and the member shows up with his students and proceeds to go past the firing line without any warning and instructs us to stop shooting as he does so.  He must have been teaching his students well.  He was a range officer in the club as well.  Go figure.  

As a side note, it is great sometimes when I arrive at the range and I am the only one there.  However,  for the most part I think it is better to go with a buddy just in case something happens, and bring a phone with you.  When I was a beginner though, I liked going by myself and thinking about what I was doing with no pressure.  When the range is busy I think it is hard for new shooters, as there is too much going on.  

It might be a good idea to keep a tourniquet and an Israeli Bandage on your person as well.  

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Private and public ranges, and the State could offer some kind of incentives for new shooters to be trained, but it is still the individual shooter's responsibility.  There should be options available that aren't too costly or onerous.  Yes, schools should at least educate on proper handling of firearms.  But that is not going to happen by the State that in my opinion relish incidents so that they can direct more control.  That would go against programming that guns are bad.   I don't know if they even have shop class anymore, but I certainly remember all the safety classes.  My grandfather told me that when he was in high school during hunting season the kids would bring their shotguns to school so that they could go hunting after.  

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On 1/22/2019 at 8:33 AM, Handyman said:

Anyone have any stats on how many people have been injured at a range by another patron? I don't think I have ever heard of a single case. We might be trying to turn a theoretical problem into an actual problem.

See below.

On 1/22/2019 at 9:15 AM, PeteF said:

It has happened.  There was a negligent shooting of a man in the leg at brick armory, and a murder-suicide at shore shot in 2008.  Statistically significant?  I'm not sure.

The one that most recently came to mind as I searched my memory banks was the Brick Armory shoot.

In that case, a dumb-ass customer loaded his 500 Nitro Extress hunting rifle, and leaned it against the port while he stepped back.  The gun fell, the triggers discharged both barrels.

Fortunately, one round went directly into the berm.

The other round however bounced through against  wall and went through a port/barrier and into someone's leg.  Fortunately, that took a lot of the energy out of the round.  Would have been horrible if it hit the customer directly.

@PeteF was not aware of the murder-suicide?

@Handyman the other thing is. it depends on what you consider "injured" at the range.

Is brass flying into your face an injury?

The only time I drew blood was actually outside of NJ.  I was shooting a USPSA Nationals match in Las Vegas.  From a nearby birm someone was shooting and the bullet hit a rock and bounced, flew awfully close.  One time, while either getting ready to shoot or on the line, a ricochet jacket landed in my leg.  (was wearing shorts).

Realistically though, at public ranges the worst injuries you are likely to receive are the brown stains in your underwear when someone muzzle sweeps you with a loaded gun and all of the toxic primers and lead being shot in a poorly ventilated area around you.

Every other shooting AFAIK in NJ ranges was a suicide, or a negligent discharge into their hand/leg (most recent Garden State Shooting Center).  

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Range in PA a man was loading his own 357 magnums and something happened at range and barrel blew up.  Fragments went into the neck of the person that was next to him.  Of course that wasn't specifically a safety violation.   Another instance was when someone was by himself at a range and he was shot and killed and robbed and someone took his AR if I remember.  But again, that wasn't a safety violation not obeying one of the big 4.  

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41 minutes ago, Maksim said:

Every other shooting AFAIK in NJ ranges was a suicide, or a negligent discharge into their hand/leg (most recent Garden State Shooting Center).  

Question about that one... the employee still working there after shooting himself in the hand with a .22?

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On 1/31/2019 at 8:06 PM, Underdog said:

Range in PA a man was loading his own 357 magnums and something happened at range and barrel blew up.  Fragments went into the neck of the person that was next to him.  Of course that wasn't specifically a safety violation.   Another instance was when someone was by himself at a range and he was shot and killed and robbed and someone took his AR if I remember.  But again, that wasn't a safety violation not obeying one of the big 4.  

?????  loading his handgun and the barrel blew up?  this sounds odd to me

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18 hours ago, myhatinthering said:

?????  loading his handgun and the barrel blew up?  this sounds odd to me

I think what he means is the man had reloaded is own ammunition and then had a catastrophic failure at the range - sounds like a squib and a subsequent full power shot leading to a blown barrel. Just guessing. His syntax could have been better - but this is a gun forum, not an English forum. LOL

Adios,

Pizza Bob

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On 1/31/2019 at 7:50 PM, Maksim said:

See below.

The one that most recently came to mind as I searched my memory banks was the Brick Armory shoot.

In that case, a dumb-ass customer loaded his 500 Nitro Extress hunting rifle, and leaned it against the port while he stepped back.  The gun fell, the triggers discharged both barrels.

Fortunately, one round went directly into the berm.

The other round however bounced through against  wall and went through a port/barrier and into someone's leg.  Fortunately, that took a lot of the energy out of the round.  Would have been horrible if it hit the customer directly.

@PeteF was not aware of the murder-suicide?

@Handyman the other thing is. it depends on what you consider "injured" at the range.

Is brass flying into your face an injury?

The only time I drew blood was actually outside of NJ.  I was shooting a USPSA Nationals match in Las Vegas.  From a nearby birm someone was shooting and the bullet hit a rock and bounced, flew awfully close.  One time, while either getting ready to shoot or on the line, a ricochet jacket landed in my leg.  (was wearing shorts).

Realistically though, at public ranges the worst injuries you are likely to receive are the brown stains in your underwear when someone muzzle sweeps you with a loaded gun and all of the toxic primers and lead being shot in a poorly ventilated area around you.

Every other shooting AFAIK in NJ ranges was a suicide, or a negligent discharge into their hand/leg (most recent Garden State Shooting Center).  

A friend of mine is a member at Shore Shot and she told me about the he murder suicide. Not sure if it’s true but she said that was the reason they went to no single unlicensed shooters. Has to be 2 people or at least one FID

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On 1/31/2019 at 8:34 PM, Screwball said:

Question about that one... the employee still working there after shooting himself in the hand with a .22?

Not sure.

12 hours ago, Pizza Bob said:

I think what he means is the man had reloaded is own ammunition and then had a catastrophic failure at the range - sounds like a squib and a subsequent full power shot leading to a blown barrel. Just guessing. His syntax could have been better - but this is a gun forum, not an English forum. LOL

Adios,

Pizza Bob

I would think reloaded too BUT have seen plenty of squibs with newly manufactured ammo too.  WWB comes to mind.  But yes... most definitely Squib and then a follow up shot that blew up barrel.  Only other thing, but not likely if revolver was lead fouling on a polygonal rifled barrel.

10 hours ago, JMich3 said:

A friend of mine is a member at Shore Shot and she told me about the he murder suicide. Not sure if it’s true but she said that was the reason they went to no single unlicensed shooters. Has to be 2 people or at least one FID

Never heard... BUT the "no single unlicensed shooters" is not store policy but one that was mandated by a number of the insurance carriers.  You will find that rule at pretty much every NJ range AFAIK.

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