If It WereYou... A “WWYD” Question

[Bully 749]

I want and will be pursuing my FFL in the next couple of years. I do NOT want to do “general” gunsmithing. Instead I want to focus on one particular type of firearm. 

Currently I am mildly obsessed with bolt guns. I love shooting and I compete at a local level in F-Class matches in the summer. I will be building my own match rifle in the next couple of weeks. Threading the barrel, chambering, truing the action and bolt, etc. 

However, my first firearm and my long time love, the 1911, is also a possibility. I enjoy working on them and have modified a couple of them to suit me. I have one out being built by a true pro right now (I won’t see it for a couple of years) and it’s re-inspired me to mess with the platform. 

I have a lathe. I will be adding a milling machine, hopefully this summer. From there I will be working on building my skill set. However I’m truly torn on which platform. And remember, I’m a Gen X guy. I’m truly a believer in specialization. I don’t want to do both. 

Thoughts, ruminations, pontification, and clarity sought regarding this. 

[Zeke 5,504]

If you excel at one thing does not mean you will not excel at others. Metal machining is metal machining across the board. Best of luck in your endeavors. When I get my  long distance rifle I’m definitely gonna call you to make it mo awesomeness!

[Smokin .50 1,907]

If I wanted to build 1911's I'd write to my friend Bruce Piatt (he's a Facebook friend btw) and sign-up for his build class.  Bruce was OTJ for Montvalle PD.  After building one with Bruce, you'll have the skill set to do them efficiently.  Old School, tuned by hand, using the best parts & Bruce's 35 years of knowledge.  It is at THAT point you'll know if you're going to do more 1911's Chris.  And YOUR custom gun gets built in FIVE DAYS instead of waiting 2 years.  Here's a video from last years' Shot Show:

 

[Bully 749]

2 hours ago, Zeke said:

If you excel at one thing does not mean you will not excel at others. Metal machining is metal machining across the board. Best of luck in your endeavors. When I get my  long distance rifle I’m definitely gonna call you to make it mo awesomeness!

Thanks buddy.  I'm happy to help in any way I can.

1 hour ago, Smokin .50 said:

If I wanted to build 1911's I'd write to my friend Bruce Piatt (he's a Facebook friend btw) and sign-up for his build class.  Bruce was OTJ for Montvalle PD.  After building one with Bruce, you'll have the skill set to do them efficiently.  Old School, tuned by hand, using the best parts & Bruce's 35 years of knowledge.  It is at THAT point you'll know if you're going to do more 1911's Chris.  And YOUR custom gun gets built in FIVE DAYS instead of waiting 2 years. 

 

I know about Bruce's class.  The pistol being built in class is no where near the level of fit/finish of the pistol I'm having built.  
I'm not on Facebook.

I've built 1911's in the past.  I'm gonna build another one.  I'm trying to decide what to do with my retirement years.  Not what pistol to build or who to go to for it.  

BTW, for the forseeable future, Bruce is not holding any classes locally.  I'd probably look at Jim Garthwaite's class or, if I'm looking to travel, Chuck Rodger's class.  A Marvel or Vicker's class wouldn't kill me, either...

[Smokin .50 1,907]

OK, got it & thanks.  2" group at 50 yards is pretty good for a 5-day pistol.  Good luck figurin' it all out. Take care!

~R

[Heavyopp 167]

I tossed around the idea of going to one of Jim Garthwaite's classes 

As with most things for me work gets in the way

I would certainly take a class and build a gun to see if it was something I wanted to do more seriously

[Bully 749]

24 minutes ago, Heavyopp said:

I tossed around the idea of going to one of Jim Garthwaite's classes 

As with most things for me work gets in the way

I would certainly take a class and build a gun to see if it was something I wanted to do more seriously

Thanks Jer.  Problem is, I like them both.  There are pros and cons to both as well.  

If it were you, which would you concentrate on?  IF you had to stay in the NJ area?  

[NJSigfan 218]

Good luck with either direction you choose.  For me I’d concentrate on the bolt action.  They’re simply more goodie. Haha

[Bully 749]

1 minute ago, NJSigfan said:

Good luck with either direction you choose.  For me I’d concentrate on the bolt action.  They’re simply more goodie. Haha

Coming from the guy with 2 1911's and no bolt guns in his sig... 

[NJSigfan 218]

Oh, I added the bolt gun last month.  Still getting it set up.  Once it’s ready I’ll unveil her.  Lol

oh, and I need to update the Sig...some of those guns have changed.  

[Ray Ray 3,566]

Gosh, this is gonna sound weird since I am a revolver guy at the heart BUT the future in gunsmithing isn't metal and aluminum.  It's polymer and refinishing.   Stippling, slide work, trigger work, sights, cerakoat, duracoat, and whatever else this new generation of shooters want on their wizbang 9mm guns.  Learn those and watch the dough flow.

[GramGun79 226]

56 minutes ago, Ray Ray said:

Gosh, this is gonna sound weird since I am a revolver guy at the heart BUT the future in gunsmithing isn't metal and aluminum.  It's polymer and refinishing.   Stippling, slide work, trigger work, sights, cerakoat, duracoat, and whatever else this new generation of shooters want on their wizbang 9mm guns.  Learn those and watch the dough flow.

you are absolutely right buddy...I look at my instagram feed and every other post is someone showing off exactly what you just mentioned. The big names like Agency, Taran Tactical & Zev are making a killing with all these upgrades and refinishing. It all started with Glock modifications and now they are expanding to other manufacturers. 

[JackDaWack 2,895]

Is this to make money? Or to establish a skill few have?

I have to laugh at current gunsmith trends. I learned how to cerakote at about the cost to do a single firearm, and I learned how to stipple at a fraction the cost. Anyone who can focus on learning a new skill can do these things quickly. A lot of these "upgrades" for guns like Zev products, are marginal upgrades. In some cases the are even problematic with compatability.. they are not "custom" imo.

On the other hand creating a firearm from the ground up is entirely different, but lets also consider it would take years to make a name for yourself to get enough customers to make $.

I'm limited in knowledge, but a bolt gun not only gives you incredible diversity, but it should be much easier to complete to desired tolerances. Aside from turning out a long barrel which is probably the hardest part. The other issue is whether or not your machines are capable of the tolerances you seek. 

[Heavyopp 167]

3 hours ago, Bully said:

Thanks Jer.  Problem is, I like them both.  There are pros and cons to both as well.  

If it were you, which would you concentrate on?  IF you had to stay in the NJ area?  

Easy choice for me -- 1911 --  although I have no illusions that I would make money with it

 

 

[fishnut 2,358]

If I had to choose between the 2 my vote is for the 1911 if your planning on staying in NJ. More 1911 owners and shooters in NJ than long distance rifle shooters. 

But if I were making the choice for myself I'd choose both. Like @Zeke said metal working is metal working. 

Let me know when you start a waiting list for a 1911. My Springfield GI could use some upgrades. 

[Maksim 1,504]

19 minutes ago, fishnut said:

If I had to choose between the 2 my vote is for the 1911 if your planning on staying in NJ. More 1911 owners and shooters in NJ than long distance rifle shooters. 

But if I were making the choice for myself I'd choose both. Like @Zeke said metal working is metal working. 

Let me know when you start a waiting list for a 1911. My Springfield GI could use some upgrades. 

Congrats!  1,000,000th post! 

[Bully 749]

28 minutes ago, Maksim said:

Congrats!  1,000,000th post! 

Does he get a free year?!?

Honestly, the honor couldn't go to a cooler guy.

[Maksim 1,504]

Great topic.

So I think this will also depend on... "Why are you getting your FFL?"

Is it to make money as a dealer/distributor?  Or are we talking FFL 07 where you mostly build/manufacture?

The two are going to require vastly different focuses.

You also have to consider where you are going to be.  Is it in NJ?  If so, assuming most of your initial clients are friends/family/forum members, there are far more 1911 folks than F class shooters.  After all, not that many places where you can really stretch your legs.

In either case, both of those markets are fairly limited.  You are really thinking SVI, AKAI type shops.  High price, low volume.

The alternative is like Zev... where you produce mods and want to sell as many as possible.  Again two different models.

The other thing is, while specializing is good, you also don't want to pigeonhole yourself IF you plan on growing bigger.  What I can tell you is companies like ZEV are pushing and spending A LOT of money to get out of the "Zev = Glock" idea that is burned into everyone's head.

Lastly... depending on your goals, it will take A LOT of money to start building recognition unless you are okay being known as a boutique type guy within a small circle that 99% of shooters will never even known about. 

The thing of it is, if you are good at what you do, partner with others who are great at what you suck at.  Being a solo guy in the gun business sucks and merely due to my nature of covering the gun business for national media, I have run into many smaller gun start ups who have amazing ideas, great products... but are unfortunately obscure.  To get exposure... you need A LOT of money.  So the alternative is... are you ready to get into the trenches and do some guerrilla marketing?  If so... then when are you going to have time to build the guns?

[Bully 749]

@Maksim

Great topic.

So I think this will also depend on... "Why are you getting your FFL?"
There are a couple of reasons.  The first is that although I love what I do for a living, I don't want to do it until they bury me.  Additionally, I have never made smart decisions with my money, for a variety of reasons that I won't get into here.  Suffice it to say that the dream retirement will never happen for me.  So I am looking for a viable alternative to standing behind a chair doing hair at 75.  

Is it to make money as a dealer/distributor?  Or are we talking FFL 07 where you mostly build/manufacture?
I would be looking for an 07.

The two are going to require vastly different focuses.

You also have to consider where you are going to be.  Is it in NJ?  If so, assuming most of your initial clients are friends/family/forum members, there are far more 1911 folks than F class shooters.  After all, not that many places where you can really stretch your legs.
Precisely why this is on my mind.

In either case, both of those markets are fairly limited.  You are really thinking SVI, AKAI type shops.  High price, low volume.

The alternative is like Zev... where you produce mods and want to sell as many as possible.  Again two different models.

The other thing is, while specializing is good, you also don't want to pigeonhole yourself IF you plan on growing bigger.  What I can tell you is companies like ZEV are pushing and spending A LOT of money to get out of the "Zev = Glock" idea that is burned into everyone's head.

Lastly... depending on your goals, it will take A LOT of money to start building recognition unless you are okay being known as a boutique type guy within a small circle that 99% of shooters will never even known about. 
I am doing this to hopefully supplement whatever the gov't can give me that I've been paying for for almost 40 years already...  

The thing of it is, if you are good at what you do, partner with others who are great at what you suck at.  Being a solo guy in the gun business sucks and merely due to my nature of covering the gun business for national media, I have run into many smaller gun start ups who have amazing ideas, great products... but are unfortunately obscure.  To get exposure... you need A LOT of money.  So the alternative is... are you ready to get into the trenches and do some guerrilla marketing?  If so... then when are you going to have time to build the guns?
I currently have a name picked for whichever way I decide to go, and a budding plan that will hopefully get me some recognition.  I also do NOT discount the effectiveness of using platforms like IG and such to build a name/portfolio.  I understand that they are not foolproof or easy.  But they can be made to work.  
There are a lot of interesting points in what you're bringing to light and to say that I appreciate your input is an understatement.

 

[Maksim 1,504]

@Bully

Quite welcome.

The thing with IG is that it is good for exposure but not much of it turns into business.

If you want to have your product sold... you just need to have a magazine/site like Recoil do a feature... or one of the big youtubers.  Unfortunately, that will cost you about $30k merely to get on their calendar.

I use guys like Taran and Shay Akai as good examples... they lived their nich... USPSA/3 Gun... started growing in that market, sponsoring events, etc... and then used that to propel themselves upwards. 

For other companies I am friends/consulting with... they have damn great products... but not budgets to carve out any meaningful marketshare. 

Looking specifically into NJ, there is at least one manufacturer here, on the smaller scale, that has a seemingly great product... but it may not matter unless they dedicate into investing in the brand. 

[Bully 749]

11 minutes ago, Maksim said:

 

Looking specifically into NJ, there is at least one manufacturer here, on the smaller scale, that has a seemingly great product... but it may not matter unless they dedicate into investing in the brand. 

@Maksim A 1911 guy?  I've not heard of anyone building 1911's in NJ.  There was one but he works for a shipping company now.   Or the AR guys?  There is one in central and one just around the corner from me in Bergen.  Or are you talking about the bolt gun guy?  

[Maksim 1,504]

1 minute ago, Bully said:

@Maksim A 1911 guy?  I've not heard of anyone building 1911's in NJ.    Or the AR guys?  There is one in central and one just around the corner from me in Bergen.  Or are you talking about the bolt gun guy?  

AR.  We can discuss via PM if you want. 

[Bully 749]

1 minute ago, Maksim said:

AR.  We can discuss via PM if you want. 

Sure.  Would love to.  I can send you my cell if text is easier.

[BullzeyeNJ 104]

I remember talking to a very well respected bolt gun smith a couple years ago on the phone. He was a machinist by trade but built bolt guns for people in his off time. His rifles were exceptional and highly desired. I asked him how long it took from chambering to cerakote it took him to make a rifle. He said two days for the most part. We started talking 1911s. He built one for himself and he told me he would never do it again. He fit everything by hand and did his own machining. It took him an entire month to build this one pistol. Now a seasoned 1911 smith may do that at a much faster pace but I’m sure it will take more then two days. Jason Burton for example dedicates an entire 2 weeks on one build. That’s all he works on. So for arguments sake, lets say he spends 60-80 hours on one build. Very labor intensive for one project. 

So consider what pace you want to work at and what your turnaround time is going to be when factoring what you want to specialize in doing. There really isn’t a wrong answer here, just your personal preference. 

[Bully 749]

39 minutes ago, BullzeyeNJ said:

I remember talking to a very well respected bolt gun smith a couple years ago on the phone. He was a machinist by trade but built bolt guns for people in his off time. His rifles were exceptional and highly desired. I asked him how long it took from chambering to cerakote it took him to make a rifle. He said two days for the most part. We started talking 1911s. He built one for himself and he told me he would never do it again. He fit everything by hand and did his own machining. It took him an entire month to build this one pistol. Now a seasoned 1911 smith may do that at a much faster pace but I’m sure it will take more then two days. Jason Burton for example dedicates an entire 2 weeks on one build. That’s all he works on. So for arguments sake, lets say he spends 60-80 hours on one build. Very labor intensive for one project. 

So consider what pace you want to work at and what your turnaround time is going to be when factoring what you want to specialize in doing. There really isn’t a wrong answer here, just your personal preference. 

Thanks bud.

Yeah, even I can spin a bolt gun together in a day.  If I was painting it, it would for sure add another.  My buddy that taught me to build rifles showed me his 1911 that he built.  Same thing, he's a machinist by trade.  It took him a month of Sundays or thereabouts.  Most 1911 guys take roughly a week to build a pistol.  Roughly.  

I'm really just trying to puzzle it out.  Hoping to maybe get some insights that I hadn't previously considered.  Or even an alternate direction.  I do know I don't want to work on Glocks.  Cool guns but I have zero love for them.  

[Maksim 1,504]

9 hours ago, Bully said:

Thanks bud.

Yeah, even I can spin a bolt gun together in a day.  If I was painting it, it would for sure add another.  My buddy that taught me to build rifles showed me his 1911 that he built.  Same thing, he's a machinist by trade.  It took him a month of Sundays or thereabouts.  Most 1911 guys take roughly a week to build a pistol.  Roughly.  

I'm really just trying to puzzle it out.  Hoping to maybe get some insights that I hadn't previously considered.  Or even an alternate direction.  I do know I don't want to work on Glocks.  Cool guns but I have zero love for them.  

Unfortunately the market for Glocks, and other plastic fantastic pistols is far far bigger.

keep in mind long gun sales are at a 10 year low, despite the Florida shooting. 

A stock 1911 is good enough out of the box for most people, and again a very small market.

so you have to figure out whether you are okay essentially having this as a hobby, in which case nothing wrong with 1911 and bolt guns, or you may want to consider working on guns where there is a need, ie glocks, sigs, ars.

 

[Bully 749]

7 hours ago, Maksim said:

Unfortunately the market for Glocks, and other plastic fantastic pistols is far far bigger.

keep in mind long gun sales are at a 10 year low, despite the Florida shooting. 

A stock 1911 is good enough out of the box for most people, and again a very small market.

so you have to figure out whether you are okay essentially having this as a hobby, in which case nothing wrong with 1911 and bolt guns, or you may want to consider working on guns where there is a need, ie glocks, sigs, ars.

 

I understand that plastic guns are the big sellers.  However, this is going to be a supplement to my retirement.  A part time career change, if you will.  

Did you get my PM?  I'd love to hear about that company and your thoughts on it, that you mentioned.

[Maksim 1,504]

1 minute ago, Bully said:

I understand that plastic guns are the big sellers.  However, this is going to be a supplement to my retirement.  A part time career change, if you will.  

Did you get my PM?  I'd love to hear about that company and your thoughts on it, that you mentioned.

Yes.  In that case, go with whatever floats your boat, 1911 or bolt guns.  As a supplement they both work.

And yes did get PM, will chat later today. 

[remixer 1,645]

IMO There is tons of room for a Gunsmith in NJ... all the ones that do good work are backlogged months.

As a 07 making 1 single type firearm you are dealing with a niche market.  that may or may not be flooded.

To build a brand takes many years and plenty of money to back it up.

If you plan to do this as a revenue source (retirement)i would suggest general gun smiting while working on your niche product.

If your older it very well might be your brand never gets the recognition it might deserve due the time involved depending on your age.

 

[10X 3,296]

On 2/2/2019 at 10:40 PM, JackDaWack said:

I learned how to cerakote at about the cost to do a single firearm, and I learned how to stipple at a fraction the cost. 

When I needed to checker some custom carved grips for target pistols, i bought a checkering kit and taught myself by checkering the interior drawer sides of my desk in the college dorm.