Electric cars as the norm vs the exception

[Darrenf 422]

1 minute ago, Zeke said:

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-unlocks-full-battery-capacity-free-supercharging-hurricane-michael/

You said they only make one battery, that is not true.  There were some models that were software locked, but there has always been multiple battery packs that were physically different.  I'm quite aware of the unlock during the hurricane, but that was only for the 60kwh packs in the first gen, and 75kWh packs in the second gen. 

[Zeke 5,504]

Just now, Darrenf said:

You said they only make one battery, that is not true.  There were some models that were software locked, but there has always been multiple battery packs that were physically different.  I'm quite aware of the unlock during the hurricane, but that was only for the 60kwh packs in the first gen, and 75kWh packs in the second gen. 

Meh, close enough. 

[Darrenf 422]

Just now, Zeke said:

Meh, close enough. 

Don't pull a Greenday. 

[raz-0 1,259]

1 hour ago, Darrenf said:

The shares fell because he stated they won't turn a profit this quarter, not because they are going to online sales only.  And yes, people will purchase them online, that is how most of them have been sold to this point.  And closing down the sales department has nothing to do with the service centers.  

The announcements made yesterday we're nothing short of amazing, they now have the $35,000 car, with features beyond what anyone expected, and all the Model 3's made to this point will be getting significant reductions in 0-60 times and increased top speeds, all through a software update that happens automatically in your driveway!  Who does that!??

A company restricting access to the features of the car you paid for? 

Personally if rather they reduce the autopilot crap to get the price down. The model 3 interior is already dismal. 

[Displaced Texan 11,738]

Turn a profit? Tesla?? They have never turned a profit. 

[Darrenf 422]

13 minutes ago, Displaced Texan said:

Turn a profit? Tesla?? They have never turned a profit. 

Actually they have, but they are hell bent on growth, so just about everything they make goes right back into building more factories and R&D. 

[Darrenf 422]

26 minutes ago, raz-0 said:

A company restricting access to the features of the car you paid for? 

Personally if rather they reduce the autopilot crap to get the price down. The model 3 interior is already dismal. 

I swear some of you are like the MSM talking about Trump. The tech is new, so they start with great performance that no one that purchased was disappointed with, and now after gathering data for a year they know they can uncork the motors without worry about warranty issues, (something no one outside of Tesla knew was happening). 

 

 

[Kevin125 4,772]

On 2/14/2019 at 5:21 PM, Zeke said:

@Darrenf and @raz-0. Good points.

lose the dodads,( mostly with this self driving disaster) and price upfront and repair could comedown drastically.

The “basic” model X “suv” is about $90,000.  They are way too expensive.  Interesting looking vehicle.  Cool “over your head” windshield.  Self opening doors. Coll gull wing rear passenger doors.  There is that cool huge center display.  My opinion is all those doo-dads are the bling they stuff in to justify the grossly over priced product.

But there really isn’t much to cut out.  Price one.  

36 month 10k mile lease.

$10,000 down. $1,140 / month.

For the model 3.... its essentially a stripped down Toyota Corolla that costs 100% more than a loaded Toyota.

Buying one of these is just a bad financial decision.

[Zeke 5,504]

1 minute ago, Kevin125 said:

The “basic” model X “suv” is about $90,000.  They are way too expensive.  Interesting looking vehicle.  Cool “over your head” windshield.  Self opening doors. Coll gull wing rear passenger doors.  There is that cool huge center display.  My opinion is all those doo-dads are the bling they stuff in to justify the grossly over priced product.

But there really isn’t much to cut out.  Price one.  

36 month 10k mile lease.

$10,000 down. $1,140 / month.

Not the model T business plan 

[Kevin125 4,772]

25 minutes ago, Zeke said:

Not the model T business plan 

Other than the mass produced part, I don’t recall the story.

The X comes with some form of active protections like braking when you’re about to rear end someone or if you let go of the wheel. But the self driving is an add on.  It also isn’t complete autonomous operation.  I was at the dealer on Rte 22 the other day and the sales guy explained it limitations in production models.

 

[Sniper 6,372]

26 minutes ago, Kevin125 said:

My opinion is all those doo-dads are the bling they stuff in to justify the grossly over priced product.

 

26 minutes ago, Kevin125 said:

For the model 3.... its essentially a stripped down Toyota Corolla that costs 100% more than a loaded Toyota.

Buying one of these is just a bad financial decision.

But, but, but... that acceleration!!!  

 

[Zeke 5,504]

27 minutes ago, Kevin125 said:

Other than the mass produced part, I don’t recall the story.

The X comes with some form of active protections like braking when you’re about to rear end someone or if you let go of the wheel. But the self driving is an add on.  It also isn’t complete autonomous operation.  I was at the dealer on Rte 22 the other day and the sales guy explained it limitations in production models.

 

“I will build a car for the great multitude. It will be large enough for the family, but small enough for the individual to run and care for. It will be constructed of the best materials, by the best men to be hired, after the simplest designs that modern engineering can devise. But it will be so low in price that no man making a good salary will be unable to own one – and enjoy with his family the blessing of hours of pleasure in God's great open spaces.”

[Kevin125 4,772]

1 minute ago, Sniper said:

 

But, but, but... that acceleration!!!  

 

Lol.....

In some ways they’re cool vehicles, but .... they got cost issues.  They also fold up like tin can according to a body shop owner I was speaking to the other day.  He believed it was because of all the aluminum they used and little to no steel. They have great crash ratings, but it sounds like its relatively easy to hut that total loss number.  That can be good for insurance rates.  At least the collision part.

1 minute ago, Zeke said:

“I will build a car for the great multitude. It will be large enough for the family, but small enough for the individual to run and care for. It will be constructed of the best materials, by the best men to be hired, after the simplest designs that modern engineering can devise. But it will be so low in price that no man making a good salary will be unable to own one – and enjoy with his family the blessing of hours of pleasure in God's great open spaces.”

Sure that wasn’t Hitler and his early Volkswagen Beetle?

[Handyman 5,682]

10 hours ago, Zeke said:

“I will build a car for the great multitude. It will be large enough for the family, but small enough for the individual to run and care for. It will be constructed of the best materials, by the best men to be hired, after the simplest designs that modern engineering can devise. But it will be so low in price that no man making a good salary will be unable to own one – and enjoy with his family the blessing of hours of pleasure in God's great open spaces.”

Elon's motto is more like:

I will build a vehicle that will cause libs to stuff enormous amounts of cash in my pocket while increasing strip mining around the world. 

[Darrenf 422]

12 hours ago, Kevin125 said:

Lol.....

In some ways they’re cool vehicles, but .... they got cost issues.  They also fold up like tin can according to a body shop owner I was speaking to the other day.  He believed it was because of all the aluminum they used and little to no steel. They have great crash ratings, but it sounds like its relatively easy to hut that total loss number.  That can be good for insurance rates.  At least the collision part.

Sure that wasn’t Hitler and his early Volkswagen Beetle?

I know when discussing engineering a safe vehicle it's the "body shop" guy I go to for expertise.  The entire line is among  the safest cars out there, and the model 3 has the highest ratings of any car out there.  When you can design the crumple zone without concern for a large uncompressible object (the engine) in the middle of it, it makes designing a safer car easier.  Not to mention the ultra low center of gravity due to the battery being below the floorpan that helps with rollover resistance.    An odd priority you have, placing insurance costs above life, especially when insurance rates for Teslas are also on par with competitive cars.  

[Zeke 5,504]

Do Tesla people have a cool wave like jeepers or Harley couch riders? Is it a raised fist?

 

- deep thoughts by Zeke 

[raz-0 1,259]

2 hours ago, Darrenf said:

I know when discussing engineering a safe vehicle it's the "body shop" guy I go to for expertise.  The entire line is among  the safest cars out there, and the model 3 has the highest ratings of any car out there.  When you can design the crumple zone without concern for a large uncompressible object (the engine) in the middle of it, it makes designing a safer car easier.  Not to mention the ultra low center of gravity due to the battery being below the floorpan that helps with rollover resistance.    An odd priority you have, placing insurance costs above life, especially when insurance rates for Teslas are also on par with competitive cars.  

When a pricey car is easy to total and unlikely to be repaired in a collision, you have to be a lot more careful about how you pay for it so you don't wind up riding the bus.

Almost everyone I know is either upside down or leading. 

Basic insurance rates might be good, but what is gap insurance like on them?

[Sniper 6,372]

2 hours ago, Darrenf said:

I know when discussing engineering a safe vehicle it's the "body shop" guy I go to for expertise.  The entire line is among  the safest cars out there, and the model 3 has the highest ratings of any car out there. 

How about autopilot? Seems like body design and crumple zones isn't helping safety there..

Tesla Model 3 driver again dies in crash with trailer, Autopilot not yet ruled out

Earlier today, a Tesla Model 3 owner died in a tragic accident with a semi truck. The Model 3 went under the truck’s trailer resulting “in the roof being sheared off as it passed underneath,” which is known as a “side underride” accident.

The circumstances are extremely similar to the famous 2016 fatal Autopilot crash. The accident is still under investigation and Autopilot hasn’t been ruled out.

In this new accident, the vehicle again kept going for over 500 yards (half a km) before coming to a stop.

https://electrek.co/2019/03/01/tesla-driver-crash-truck-trailer-autopilot/

Looks like the great acceleration is still doing well.

 

[Handyman 5,682]

Look on the bright side, they can probably use a kid-sized coffin instead of the full price model.

[Kevin125 4,772]

11 hours ago, Darrenf said:

I know when discussing engineering a safe vehicle it's the "body shop" guy I go to for expertise.  The entire line is among  the safest cars out there, and the model 3 has the highest ratings of any car out there.  When you can design the crumple zone without concern for a large uncompressible object (the engine) in the middle of it, it makes designing a safer car easier.  Not to mention the ultra low center of gravity due to the battery being below the floorpan that helps with rollover resistance.    An odd priority you have, placing insurance costs above life, especially when insurance rates for Teslas are also on par with competitive cars.  

 Not saying what my priority is in terms of life vs cost. I’m just making an observation about the economics.

It will be interesting to see how well self driving performs when its ready for general release. They are saying the ability to see traffic lights and stops signs will be available later this year for an additional $5000 for those who bought self driving.  I don’t believe their software will be able to handle infinitely variable conditions perfectly.  Statistically it may do better than the average human driver. But that won’t be much of a comfort to someone who died as a result of a malfunction that a human driver would have handled relatively easily.

I also wonder if the liability insurance will become as big an expense for manufacturers for these cars as it is for aviation, where 1/3 of the price of a new general aviation aircraft goes to the manufacturers liability policy. Not 100% sure that is still the case in 2019, but I am 100% sure thats how it was going back a decade and for decades prior.

[10X 3,296]

10 hours ago, Sniper said:

How about autopilot? Seems like body design and crumple zones isn't helping safety there..

Tesla Model 3 driver again dies in crash with trailer, Autopilot not yet ruled out

All you can take away from that headline is that the cause of the crash is not yet known.

[carl_g 568]

13 hours ago, 10X said:

All you can take away from that headline is that the cause of the crash is not yet known.

Yep and how many IC engine cars were involved in deaths that day with a human driver?

[JackDaWack 2,895]

18 minutes ago, carl_g said:

Yep and how many IC engine cars were involved in deaths that day with a human driver?

Not sure statistically that may be a good argument. Would you buy a car with auto pilot that has a similar error rate as a drunk driving?

And keep in mind, most accidents never make the news... Only when someone dies or is seriously injured. 

If you have to pay more money for an option just to cover the companies liability... It says a lot about it's effective quality... Our roads are not designed for auto pilot.. theyre trying to make a sqaure fit a circle shaped hole. 

These self driving cars can not rely on line of sight programming features. Sometimes traffic lights burn out a sign in covered or fadded... The lines in the road wear out, and in this case.. the sensor fails to pick up one of the largest vehicles you would find on the road. 

[Darrenf 422]

On 3/2/2019 at 11:57 AM, raz-0 said:

 

Basic insurance rates might be good, but what is gap insurance like on them?

My personal experience is that it was $5 a month.

18 hours ago, Kevin125 said:

 Not saying what my priority is in terms of life vs cost. I’m just making an observation about the economics.

It will be interesting to see how well self driving performs when its ready for general release. They are saying the ability to see traffic lights and stops signs will be available later this year for an additional $5000 for those who bought self driving.  I don’t believe their software will be able to handle infinitely variable conditions perfectly.  Statistically it may do better than the average human driver. But that won’t be much of a comfort to someone who died as a result of a malfunction that a human driver would have handled relatively easily.

I also wonder if the liability insurance will become as big an expense for manufacturers for these cars as it is for aviation, where 1/3 of the price of a new general aviation aircraft goes to the manufacturers liability policy. Not 100% sure that is still the case in 2019, but I am 100% sure thats how it was going back a decade and for decades prior.

Just to clarify, if you already bought full self driving, then you get those features as they release them, no extra charges. as of now there are no FSD features released.  

[Sniper 6,372]

3 hours ago, carl_g said:

Yep and how many IC engine cars were involved in deaths that day with a human driver?

How many IC cars with autopilot can't see tractor trailers?

[Darrenf 422]

3 hours ago, JackDaWack said:

 

These self driving cars can not rely on line of sight programming features. Sometimes traffic lights burn out a sign in covered or fadded... The lines in the road wear out, and in this case.. the sensor fails to pick up one of the largest vehicles you would find on the road. 

Simple, if it cant see the light it knows the stop is there, so it stops, and either waits until it's safe, or relinquishes control back to the driver.
 

 

Just now, Sniper said:

How many IC cars with autopilot can't see tractor trailers?

What do you think Autopilot (as Tesla calls it) is supposed to do?  What are the driver's responsibilities when using it?  

[Sniper 6,372]

10 minutes ago, Darrenf said:

What do you think Autopilot (as Tesla calls it) is supposed to do?  What are the driver's responsibilities when using it?  

Maybe hit the brakes if something the size of a brick wall is in front of it and the driver isn't slowing down?

I know, that's probably too much to ask of it , right?

Hey, but that acceleration...

 

[Darrenf 422]

Whatever you poison, it's a great time to be alive.  Can you imagine if just 20 years ago someone said soon we would be able to buy a quartet of four door sedans that can run low 11 second quarter mile times?

 

[Sniper 6,372]

3 minutes ago, Darrenf said:

Can you imagine if just 20 years ago someone said soon we would be able to by a quartet of four door sedans that can run low 11 second quarter mile times?

Yes, I can see how important that is when driving around downtown Trenton and other urban areas of NJ.

Maybe I'll go buy two of them to get me to the WaWa that much faster.

 

[Darrenf 422]

5 minutes ago, Sniper said:

Maybe hit the brakes if something the size of a brick wall is in front of it and the driver isn't slowing down?

I know, that's probably too much to ask of it , right?

Hey, but that acceleration...

 

Correct, it is the driver's responsibility to hit the brakes.  It's not autonomous, it's a driver aid.  And this accident is in the current system's blindspot because it is looking for obstacles on the road, not obstacles above it.  Something that can be corrected, but everytime you use AP you are reminded to 

1 minute ago, Sniper said:

Yes, I can see how important that is when driving around downtown Trenton and other urban areas of NJ.

Maybe I'll go buy two of them.

 

Look man, don't buy one if you like to putt around town like an old maid.  I don't care, but just be accurate about what you pretend to know about.