Electric cars as the norm vs the exception

[PeteF 1,044]

3 hours ago, Darrenf said:

Th car updates you on charger status in real time and also routes accordingly. I have never experienced a full or broken Tesla charger. Chargers being full or broken just isn't a real concern.  You have zero experience with this yet act like your opinion is fact.  It's like trying to discuss gun law with Mom's demand Everything. No doubt you'll find an article about a charger that was full or broken once, and try to act like that is the norm as opposed to the almost non existent reality.  Like all the law abiding gun owners that commit mass murder. Oh wait.  

Any guesses why?  Minimal #  cars?  Almost no time since deployment?  Ever been to a gas station with no line?  Every been to one with 20 people in front of you?   Lets see how well those charging stations work after a few years exposure to winters, and massive current loads.

Electric cars are a toy in their current state.  Electronics will crap out.  Yeah so will a gas car, but almost any shade tree mechanic can get them going again.  When you need to diagnose software, hardware and firmware it is a complete nightmare.

 

[Darrenf 422]

33 minutes ago, PeteF said:

Any guesses why?  Minimal #  cars?  Almost no time since deployment?  Ever been to a gas station with no line?  Every been to one with 20 people in front of you?   Lets see how well those charging stations work after a few years exposure to winters, and massive current loads.

Electric cars are a toy in their current state.  Electronics will crap out.  Yeah so will a gas car, but almost any shade tree mechanic can get them going again.  When you need to diagnose software, hardware and firmware it is a complete nightmare.

 

More opinions as if they are facts.  Superchargers have been out for over 5 years, some in some of the harshest climates in the world. They are designed for massive current loads, that is the entire point.  As far as diagnosing issues, the car will know it long before any mechanic would, and is proactive (at least Teslas are) in warning you before something becomes serious.  Also, current superchargers if they do have an issue, the car can communicate that to Tesla so that they are aware of it, and you can also press the voice command button on the steering wheel, and say "bug report" and then report the issue.  They will know about it right away.  New installations that started on Wednesday are self monitoring and report directly without any need for a car to come upon them first.  

Every car built today is loaded with electronics, and troubleshooting a Tesla is no different.  Many cars do the same thing today, where they report anomalies to the manufacturer well before you even know there is a problem.  And the electric motors are expected to last for a million miles on average.  They only have 3 moving parts.  How many electric powered devices have you had to throw out because the motor failed.  I bet not many compared to how many you've owned.

Look, I understand it's not for everyone, but again, at least be honest about it.

[Sniper 6,372]

1 hour ago, Darrenf said:

How many electric powered devices have you had to throw out because the motor failed. 

Never owned a drill, saw, washer, dryer, fan, pump or furnace, have you?

[Darrenf 422]

11 minutes ago, Sniper said:

Never owned a drill, saw, washer, dryer, fan, pump or furnace, have you?

Lots of them. Never had an electric motor fail under normal use. Belts, chucks, control units, impellers, bearings? Yep. The motor. Nope. 

[Displaced Texan 11,731]

Electric motors themselves rarely fail. The electronics that run them, are another story. 

[PeteF 1,044]

2 hours ago, Darrenf said:

More opinions as if they are facts.  Superchargers have been out for over 5 years, some in some of the harshest climates in the world. They are designed for massive current loads, that is the entire point.  As far as diagnosing issues, the car will know it long before any mechanic would, and is proactive (at least Teslas are) in warning you before something becomes serious.  Also, current superchargers if they do have an issue, the car can communicate that to Tesla so that they are aware of it, and you can also press the voice command button on the steering wheel, and say "bug report" and then report the issue.  They will know about it right away.  New installations that started on Wednesday are self monitoring and report directly without any need for a car to come upon them first.  

Every car built today is loaded with electronics, and troubleshooting a Tesla is no different.  Many cars do the same thing today, where they report anomalies to the manufacturer well before you even know there is a problem.  And the electric motors are expected to last for a million miles on average.  They only have 3 moving parts.  How many electric powered devices have you had to throw out because the motor failed.  I bet not many compared to how many you've owned.

Look, I understand it's not for everyone, but again, at least be honest about it.

Wow 5 whole years.  Thats like an eternity. 

Please do tell how the car alerts you that something is going wrong when the computer is the most likely thing to fail?  

Lets see how long does a computer hard drive typically last?  It has an electric motor?  Washing machine?  Dishwasher? I other words MANY.

Its obvious you are a fan boy.  You want to enjoy your toy?  Knock yourself out.  But at least try to the technology is not ready for prime time. 

[Sniper 6,372]

4 hours ago, Darrenf said:

Every car built today is loaded with electronics, and troubleshooting a Tesla is no different. 

Do all of them have as many computer and technical issues like Tesla?

https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=znOEXJihDsSZ_Qarv5TgDg&q=tesla+computer+malfunction&oq=tesla+computer+mal&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.33i160l2.178716.185840..189204...0.0..0.104.1365.17j1......0....1..gws-wiz.....0..0j0i131j0i3j0i22i30j0i22i10i30.dUpKovvheWc

https://www.cheatsheet.com/money-career/the-biggest-problems-tesla-model-3-owners-have-reported.html/

Wow, the list of issues at the link below is mind blowing"

https://forums.tesla.com/forum/267

 

[1LtCAP 4,262]

4 hours ago, Darrenf said:

Lots of them. Never had an electric motor fail under normal use. Belts, chucks, control units, impellers, bearings? Yep. The motor. Nope. 

my blower on my 8 year old waste oil heater failed in the beginning of this winter

 

box fan I use at home did too

tower fan I use at home failed. in both of those, it was a bad motor. 

[Darrenf 422]

5 hours ago, PeteF said:

Wow 5 whole years.  Thats like an eternity. 

Please do tell how the car alerts you that something is going wrong when the computer is the most likely thing to fail?  

Lets see how long does a computer hard drive typically last?  It has an electric motor?  Washing machine?  Dishwasher? I other words MANY.

Its obvious you are a fan boy.  You want to enjoy your toy?  Knock yourself out.  But at least try to the technology is not ready for prime time. 

Nothing lasts eternity, but for some reason you act like anything not EV related does.

"The computer is the most likely thing to fail?  Please show your work on that.  And even if it were, now ask that same question about a normal car?  I bet the computer is not the most likely thing to fail on that vehicle.  Wonder why that is?

Also, a typical SSD like that used in a Tesla has a MTBF of 1.5 million hours.  That is an average failure once every 171 years.  I'll take those odds. 

I do enjoy the car, because it is a stellar performer in so many ways.  Thanks for being so humble and allowing me to continue to do so.  If it weren't ready for prime time I wouldn't have it.

[Darrenf 422]

3 hours ago, Sniper said:

Do all of them have as many computer and technical issues like Tesla?

https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=znOEXJihDsSZ_Qarv5TgDg&q=tesla+computer+malfunction&oq=tesla+computer+mal&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.33i160l2.178716.185840..189204...0.0..0.104.1365.17j1......0....1..gws-wiz.....0..0j0i131j0i3j0i22i30j0i22i10i30.dUpKovvheWc

https://www.cheatsheet.com/money-career/the-biggest-problems-tesla-model-3-owners-have-reported.html/

Wow, the list of issues at the link below is mind blowing"

https://forums.tesla.com/forum/267

 

You literally just typed "Tesla computer malfunction" into Google and think that somehow gave you a quantitaive argument against them.  Could you be any more lazy and obvious in your bias.  Again, it's like someone typing "guns kill kids" into Google and then using those results as if they justify stripping our rights.  

And as far as this link https://forums.tesla.com/forum/267 , please anyone reading, click it and tell me if your mind is blown by the "list" of issues.  LMAO

 

[Darrenf 422]

1 hour ago, 1LtCAP said:

my blower on my 8 year old waste oil heater failed in the beginning of this winter

 

box fan I use at home did too

tower fan I use at home failed. in both of those, it was a bad motor. 

I don't think I said that electric motors never fail.  I bet I can guess what country built the motors in those products though.

[PeteF 1,044]

1 hour ago, Darrenf said:

Nothing lasts eternity, but for some reason you act like anything not EV related does.

"The computer is the most likely thing to fail?  Please show your work on that.  And even if it were, now ask that same question about a normal car?  I bet the computer is not the most likely thing to fail on that vehicle.  Wonder why that is?

Also, a typical SSD like that used in a Tesla has a MTBF of 1.5 million hours.  That is an average failure once every 171 years.  I'll take those odds. 

I do enjoy the car, because it is a stellar performer in so many ways.  Thanks for being so humble and allowing me to continue to do so.  If it weren't ready for prime time I wouldn't have it.

You actually think you can get 1.5 million hours from an ssd? REALLY?  Yeah solid state drives have a large mtbf, great.   Hows about the processors, memory, gate arrays, relays, switches etc etc etc.   The more pieces you have the lower the overall the gets.  Want to know what the fix for a rear wiper failure on a 2000 grand caravan was?  Reprogram the computer.   Now take almost every function of the car and make it computer controled.   Yeah good plan for failure.  

If it wasnt ready for prime time you wouldn't have it?  Tell that to the beta max owners, the laser disc owners, and hd-dvd.   Just because you buy in early doesn't mean its ready.

[Darrenf 422]

6 hours ago, PeteF said:

You actually think you can get 1.5 million hours from an ssd? REALLY?  Yeah solid state drives have a large mtbf, great.   Hows about the processors, memory, gate arrays, relays, switches etc etc etc.   The more pieces you have the lower the overall the gets.  Want to know what the fix for a rear wiper failure on a 2000 grand caravan was?  Reprogram the computer.   Now take almost every function of the car and make it computer controled.   Yeah good plan for failure.  

If it wasnt ready for prime time you wouldn't have it?  Tell that to the beta max owners, the laser disc owners, and hd-dvd.   Just because you buy in early doesn't mean its ready.

I didn't say that I would get 1.5 million hours.  I won't be alive for 1.5 million hours.  I said that is the MTBF on SSDs of the type Tesla uses.  Do you know what that means?  I'm still waiting for you to show your work on your statement that the computer is the most likely thing to fail and then run that same analysis on a normal car.  You ignore that because all you can do is continue to spew your uninformed opinion as fact.  

I like how you unwittingly make my own point that a Tesla is no different than any other car when it comes to the computer by mentioning your anecdote about a 20 year old mini van that is also computer controlled.  Makes me laugh, thanks for that.

You realize Tesla has been building cars for 10 years, doing nothing but growing and stealing sales from high end car companies, and none of the technologies you listed were even on the market for 10 years.  At what point in your self important opinion does a technology become ready for "prime time"?   Don't answer that until you answer my first question though, showing your work. I'll wait, I'm sure you have that analysis soon. 

[PeteF 1,044]

15 minutes ago, Darrenf said:

I didn't say that I would get 1.5 million hours.  I won't be alive for 1.5 million hours.  I said that is the MTBF on SSDs of the type Tesla uses.  Do you know what that means?  I'm still waiting for you to show your work on your statement that the computer is the most likely thing to fail and then run that same analysis on a normal car.  You ignore that because all you can do is continue to spew your uninformed opinion as fact.  

I like how you unwittingly make my own point that a Tesla is no different than any other car when it comes to the computer by mentioning your anecdote about a 20 year old mini van that is also computer controlled.  Makes me laugh, thanks for that.

You realize Tesla has been building cars for 10 years, doing nothing but growing and stealing sales from high end car companies, and none of the technologies you listed were even on the market for 10 years.  At what point in your self important opinion does a technology become ready for "prime time"?   Don't answer that until you answer my first question though, showing your work. I'll wait, I'm sure you have that analysis soon. 

I know exactly what MTBF means.  Do you?  You think a solid state drive is a computer? Please check the fail rates on iphones.  Make sure to do your reset to get it working again.  That will work real nice when you are doing 70.  The caravan had to be reprogrammed in 2001.  A whole year before that computer/software bit the dust.

My work? You are the one that claims the batteries dont fail, the motors dont fail etc so what is the weak link,  ah i see the computer controlled everything.

Keep telling yourself your toy is the greatest thing since slice bread a few years from now it will be the next Delorean.

[Darrenf 422]

Just now, PeteF said:

I know exactly what MTBF means.  Do you?  You think a solid state drive is a computer? Please check the fail rates on iphones.  Make sure to do your reset to get it working again.  That will work real nice when you are doing 70.  The caravan had to be reprogrammed in 2001.  A whole year before that computer/software bit the dust.

My work? You are the one that claims the batteries dont fail, the motors dont fail etc so what is the weak link,  ah i see the computer controlled everything.

Keep telling yourself your toy is the greatest thing since slice bread a few years from now it will be the next Delorean.

First, I never said an SSD IS a computer,  the SSD response was in regard to your comment about hard drive failures.  

What do you think would happen if the computer is reset while doing 70?  This is going to be a great example of how uninformed you are, so please answer, keeping in mind you have already implied the outcome to not be good.

Also, please show where I said ANYTHING doesn't fail, let alone batteries and motors.  I'll wait.  You sure do like your strawmen down't you.

 

[raz-0 1,259]

8 hours ago, Darrenf said:

Also, a typical SSD like that used in a Tesla has a MTBF of 1.5 million hours.  That is an average failure once every 171 years.  I'll take those odds. 
 

Wtf? SSDs don't even bother with a mtbf for actual use. They are rated by wrote cycles, because that's what will kill them under normal use.

Failure is guaranteed, but is pretty predictable if you have predictable use patterns. 

Only tesla knows how much they write to them how often, and how over provisioned they are. 

 

 

[Darrenf 422]

1 minute ago, raz-0 said:

Wtf? SSDs don't even bother with a mtbf for actual use. They are rated by wrote cycles, because that's what will kill them under normal use.

Failure is guaranteed, but is pretty predictable if you have predictable use patterns. 

Only tesla knows how much they write to them how often, and how over provisioned they are. 

 

 

This is true.  And since nothing user generated is stored on them, I'd wager they are only written to for firmware and map updates, which happen about every 30 days and average about 8Mb.  Thats about 100Mb a year? Nothing for a modern SSD.  But again, just about every modern car is controlled by a microcomputer, so why is this a knock against electric cars?  Oh right, it's not, but some people like to act like it is unique to them.  

[Sniper 6,372]

11 hours ago, Darrenf said:

I don't think I said that electric motors never fail. 

 

17 hours ago, Darrenf said:

Never had an electric motor fail under normal use.

Certainly sounds like you want people to believe they never fail. Fanboys don't remember what they post.

11 hours ago, Darrenf said:

You literally just typed "Tesla computer malfunction" into Google and think that somehow gave you a quantitaive argument against them. 

Yep, and if they were as reliable as you claim, I shouldn't have received any results. As it were, there are pages of big issues, and it's a new vehicle.

11 hours ago, Darrenf said:

And as far as this link https://forums.tesla.com/forum/267 , please anyone reading, click it and tell me if your mind is blown by the "list" of issues. 

When each day, there are hundreds of people commenting on issues for a technology that's been out for 10 years (as you claim), then yes, being able to open your door, not getting updates, cold weather battery ranges, cost of battery packs are issues for some people. And that's just the first page.

[raz-0 1,259]

2 hours ago, Darrenf said:

This is true.  And since nothing user generated is stored on them, I'd wager they are only written to for firmware and map updates, which happen about every 30 days and average about 8Mb.  Thats about 100Mb a year? Nothing for a modern SSD.  But again, just about every modern car is controlled by a microcomputer, so why is this a knock against electric cars?  Oh right, it's not, but some people like to act like it is unique to them.  

Based on crash responses, I'm guessing data logging might happen, which is high wear. If they use enterprise grade drives we'll know in the next couple of years unless they seriously over provision. 

[PeteF 1,044]

3 hours ago, Darrenf said:

First, I never said an SSD IS a computer,  the SSD response was in regard to your comment about hard drive failures.  

What do you think would happen if the computer is reset while doing 70?  This is going to be a great example of how uninformed you are, so please answer, keeping in mind you have already implied the outcome to not be good.

Also, please show where I said ANYTHING doesn't fail, let alone batteries and motors.  I'll wait.  You sure do like your strawmen down't you.

 

Well that was your response to me saying the computer would be likely to be the first thing that fails.  My response about HDs was in reference to your quote that electric motors hardly fail.  So I gave an instance of a motor that does fail fairly regularly.

So I am  uninformed?  What does happen when all of your computer controlled features fail?  Such as battery draw, motor control, braking steering etc?

Keep changing the discussion.  First it was batteries than it was motors, then it was wear and tear and repairs, now we are on charging.

Enjoy your delorean while it lasts.

 

 

[Darrenf 422]

20 hours ago, Sniper said:

 

Certainly sounds like you want people to believe they never fail. Fanboys don't remember what they post.

 

 

Again, since you don't seem to comprehend the first time, I never said that ANYTHING will never fail.  But if you don't know that electric motors are inherently more reliable than reciprocating engines, than there is no hope for you.   

Quote

Yep, and if they were as reliable as you claim, I shouldn't have received any results. As it were, there are pages of big issues, and it's a new vehicle.

You really have no idea how statistics work do you.  So, I guess the cars you think are more reliable will show no results if I type the same search terms but with a different marque.  Care to make a wager on that?
 

Quote

When each day, there are hundreds of people commenting on issues for a technology that's been out for 10 years (as you claim), then yes, being able to open your door, not getting updates, cold weather battery ranges, cost of battery packs are issues for some people. And that's just the first page.

And yet none of those issues are what you mentioned in any previous post.  Fan boys won't admit to any shortcomings.  If you had mentioned any of those issues before I would have discussed them for the issues that they are, but no, you just want to act like things that aren't problems are, and that is what I was calling you out for.  

You think that Tesla is the only car that has it's door freeze over?  How many cars get any updates at all?  Some people complain that they don't get them often enough and you paint that as an issue with the technology as opposed to ridiculous owner expectations?  GTFOH

Yes, an electric car's range is reduced in cold weather, any electric car buyer should know that and plan for that.  I did and it hasn't been the least bit of a problem for me,  Know why, I leave the house everyday with a full battery.  If you cannot get through your day comfortably with 200 miles of range, then yes, that would be a big reason not to purchase an electric car yet.  

 

Quote

cost of battery packs are issues for some people

Please post a link to anyone who has HAD to pay for a battery pack replacement from Tesla.


Does Tesla have some design flaws?  Absolutely.  Is there a car manufacturer that doesn't?  Not that I've seen.  But reliability and longevity aren't concerns for those who are honest. 

[Darrenf 422]

19 hours ago, PeteF said:

Well that was your response to me saying the computer would be likely to be the first thing that fails.  My response about HDs was in reference to your quote that electric motors hardly fail.  So I gave an instance of a motor that does fail fairly regularly.

The motor in a hard drive that fails regularly is the stepper motor, hardly comparable to an electric rotational motor.  But you keep on keeping on with your desperation to draw parallels. 

Quote

So I am  uninformed?  What does happen when all of your computer controlled features fail?  Such as battery draw, motor control, braking steering etc?

Yes, you are uninformed. You are the one making assumptions, and also moving the goal posts.  I replied to your post about RESETTING the computer at 70mph, and now you try to change it to it FAILING, as if no one would notice, or more likely, you are unable to keep track of your own argument since it's so convoluted.  So again, do tell me all knowing one, what happens in a Tesla when you reset the computer while driving at 70 MPH.  

Quote

Keep changing the discussion.  First it was batteries than it was motors, then it was wear and tear and repairs, now we are on charging.

And I'm not changing anything, just responding to each shift you make as you continue to portray your opinion as fact about things you have no experience with.  

 

Quote

Enjoy your delorean while it lasts.

I know 2 Delorean owners, and they loved their cars.  So not sure how you think that is an insult, especially since we can only enjoy ANYTHING "while it lasts", and nothing lasts forever.  

[Darrenf 422]

20 hours ago, raz-0 said:

Based on crash responses, I'm guessing data logging might happen, which is high wear. If they use enterprise grade drives we'll know in the next couple of years unless they seriously over provision. 

That we will, but again, is this something unique to Tesla, as many manufactures now data log also.  Not saying you are doing this, but some here think that is a potential problem for Tesla while ignoring the fact that it is becoming industry norm.

[raz-0 1,259]

28 minutes ago, Darrenf said:

That we will, but again, is this something unique to Tesla, as many manufactures now data log also.  Not saying you are doing this, but some here think that is a potential problem for Tesla while ignoring the fact that it is becoming industry norm.

It seems at this time Tesla is further down that hole than anyone else. Given the prices of storage, there's no reason it can't be maintained at a reasonable price. 

The real issue with electric is the price and charging it. That's really it. Unless you have a driveway and 220v, owning electric gets to be a REAL pain in the ass. 

Even if you DO have a driveway, just google "HOA EV charger"  for more fun. 

 

[Zeke 5,504]

The charging infrastructure is coming along with more mainstream adoption of these ev’s. Now I’m looking for a company that’s coming up with a back up portable battery for emergency issues.

[Sniper 6,372]

10 minutes ago, Zeke said:

Now I’m looking for a company that’s coming up with a back up portable battery for emergency issues.

Why?

Is that like carrying a spare gas can in the back of your truck?

[Zeke 5,504]

14 minutes ago, Sniper said:

Why?

Is that like carrying a spare gas can in the back of your truck?

Yes

[PeteF 1,044]

2 hours ago, Darrenf said:

The motor in a hard drive that fails regularly is the stepper motor, hardly comparable to an electric rotational motor.  But you keep on keeping on with your desperation to draw parallels. 

Yes, you are uninformed. You are the one making assumptions, and also moving the goal posts.  I replied to your post about RESETTING the computer at 70mph, and now you try to change it to it FAILING, as if no one would notice, or more likely, you are unable to keep track of your own argument since it's so convoluted.  So again, do tell me all knowing one, what happens in a Tesla when you reset the computer while driving at 70 MPH.  

And I'm not changing anything, just responding to each shift you make as you continue to portray your opinion as fact about things you have no experience with.  

 

I know 2 Delorean owners, and they loved their cars.  So not sure how you think that is an insult, especially since we can only enjoy ANYTHING "while it lasts", and nothing lasts forever.  

So we have electric motors fail. Check

You have no idea what happens when the computer in your car fails or resets. Check.

You make a statement and when proven wrong by example, you claim thats not what you said. Check

Delorean a car that was not ready for prime time and died.  But still loved by fan boys.  Just like a Tesla.  Check.

[Darrenf 422]

2 hours ago, raz-0 said:

It seems at this time Tesla is further down that hole than anyone else. Given the prices of storage, there's no reason it can't be maintained at a reasonable price. 

The real issue with electric is the price and charging it. That's really it. Unless you have a driveway and 220v, owning electric gets to be a REAL pain in the ass. 

Even if you DO have a driveway, just google "HOA EV charger"  for more fun. 

 

My gasoline bill was $150 a month.  My charging bill is $60 a month.  

But, if I were not able to charge at home there is no way I would own an electric car.  ( no doubt the trolls here will say see, this means it's not ready for prime time, ignoring the fact that I said they aren't for everyone).  I have already had two people drive my car who do not live where they could charge, and it took a little bit to talk them out of trying to get one themselves.  The driving experience had won them over enough to the point they were willing to live with the drag that would be charging somewhere else every week.   They might still do it, but they can't complain they weren't warned.

[Darrenf 422]

2 hours ago, Zeke said:

The charging infrastructure is coming along with more mainstream adoption of these ev’s. Now I’m looking for a company that’s coming up with a back up portable battery for emergency issues.

3rd parties are coming along, but they are definitely not as reliable, fast, or accessible as the Tesla Supercharger network.  That is a key part of the ownership experience that all other manufacturers continually ignore.