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NYC Cops Friendly fire

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1 hour ago, myhatinthering said:

There are ranges in nyc

sorry but no way to justify friendly fire incidents now or the stuff we saw in the past.  Every cop during the Empire State incident should have been prosecuted.  Police drawing weapons is too common and not enough scrutiny is given. 

you want the gun, you get the responsibility and the consequences for not knowing restraint from force

NO EXCUSE

There are a handful of ranges in NYC and most of them are clubs requiring membership.

Please pull up the video of the Empire State incident.  The BG was drawing on the cops.  What would you do?  Stand there and get shot?

Go back and read my earlier post in this thread.  The bullets and/or fragments of bullets that hit bystanders has already gone through the bad guy.  Also consider this is outside the Empire State Building.  Everything around there is concrete, stone. or metal.  A ricochet rich environment. 

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30 minutes ago, bobblackrifle said:

So, if someone asks a legitimate question, you're going to take your knowledge and experience and run away with it?

nope..just done explaining things to a bunch of internet trolls who dont really want to listen to the answers that are given

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41 minutes ago, myhatinthering said:

oh stop,  that has no bearing.  Now you sound the like the a$$holes in uniform people detest.  You are not above scrutiny and neither are these officers.  If  you don't know what or who you are shooting, DON'T SHOOT!  pretty fking basic

Your job does not even rank in top 10 most dangerous in America per the labor stats and strip out LA and Austin and not even top 25, not even top 5 for most stressful so don't preach about 'unless you have done the job' bs.  All jobs are unique in their own way with the only exception being that police are publicized more so than 98% of all other jobs.

and don't make me laugh with police academy.  Is that meant to be a joke; I'm serious?????

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/1002500001

Police work is number 14 with more fatalities than number 1.  Watch the logger show and you'll wonder how come more don't get killed.

Police work is also the only job where the most common cause of injury is "intentional injury by another person".

You don't seem to understand that a lot of police shootings start out as something more mundane.  Like the Linden cop who was shot and shot his attacker who already planted bombs in Seaside Park and NYC.  The original call was man sleeping in doorway.

 

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7 minutes ago, GRIZ said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/1002500001

Police work is number 14 with more fatalities than number 1.  Watch the logger show and you'll wonder how come more don't get killed.

Police work is also the only job where the most common cause of injury is "intentional injury by another person".

You don't seem to understand that a lot of police shootings start out as something more mundane.  Like the Linden cop who was shot and shot his attacker who already planted bombs in Seaside Park and NYC.  The original call was man sleeping in doorway.

 

strip out the major cities and police work drops to almost 98

strip out the 2 of the highest crime cities and police work drops below 25

we can play this game all day

point is, shoot what you see and what you know and in the case of blue, stop protecting shitty police performance and circling the wagons.  No one should disagree with this.  The problem here is right away it's assumed it's police bashing yet the guy that got caught shooting the perp in the back it's universal, 'wrong, bad etc' but if it's a cop with a bad shooint...'we don't know the facts, it's stressful, you dont' walk in the job' bs...bs!!!!

stop

I respect all professions and all persons but call it like it is.  People are fed up with it including blue families because it makes ALL look bad

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1 hour ago, BlueLineFish said:

Bottom line...dont talk shit unless you have done the job. That goes for anything. Everybody with a keyboard is a police expert. Have yet to see an internet police academy. 

 

15 minutes ago, BlueLineFish said:

nope..just done explaining things to a bunch of internet trolls who dont really want to listen to the answers that are given

 

Huh?

Who's trolling????

There's a HORRIFIC incident where a NYPD cop get killed and another wounded by friendly fire.

Members of a gun forum are discussing it and questioning it.  NYPD has a history with shootings that seem like spray and pray events and the latest details of this shooting make it seem like this one was as well.

Are you saying that only cops can raise concerns about that??????

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2 hours ago, 124gr9mm said:

Still holding his gun high and dry-firing it, Ransom emerged from the store to find himself in the middle of two waves of blue, with a group of cops including Gorman to his right, and Simonsen among a squad to his left, sources said.

So is this looking like a situation where PD group 1, Ransom, and Pd group 2 were all in a line and misses or overpenetrating shots from one PD group hit the other behind Ransom?

I could see how a FF situation could occur inside a building but couldn’t picture what led to one occurring outside. 

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24 minutes ago, 124gr9mm said:

 

 

Huh?

Who's trolling????

There's a HORRIFIC incident where a NYPD cop get killed and another wounded by friendly fire.

Members of a gun forum are discussing it and questioning it.  NYPD has a history with shootings that seem like spray and pray events and the latest details of this shooting make it seem like this one was as well.

Are you saying that only cops can raise concerns about that??????

Asks who’s trolling. 

Goes on to troll. 

Maybe that’s not your intent but your statements above could be read that way. 

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16 minutes ago, voyager9 said:

Asks who’s trolling. 

Goes on to troll. 

Maybe that’s not your intent but your statements above could be read that way. 

LOL!!

You may want to look up the definition of trolling.  Go ahead and click on the link for my screenname and come back with some examples of where I've done any trolling on this (or any other) forum.

Did you read any of the other posts on this thread?

 

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On 2/14/2019 at 6:59 PM, Handyman said:

I think once the adrenaline is pumping and someone starts shooting, the NYC coppers have a tendency to all line up and do a mag dump. 

That's how Amadou Diallo got lit up.

This doesn't happen only with NYC cops.  It can happen in any group of armed individuals.  It's called "contagious shooting" and happens more than a lot of people think.

Don't confuse this with shooting until the bad guy goes down.  Gunfighting isn't USPSA or IDPA where you put 2 rounds in each target and you move on.  You may put 2 or 3 rounds in a bad guy and he still is fighting.  Also don't confuse the number of shots fired by a LEO in a gunfight with poor marksmanship.  I saw a video of an off duty LEO shooting it out with a bad guy in a fast food place.  Clearly a one on one situation.  The LEO, who was a mediocre shooter on the range, fired 11 rds from a G26 in about 2 seconds. IIRC 9 rds hit the bad guy. The bad guy was DRT.

You need to shoot until the bad guy stops. 1,2,3 or 10rds.  Whatever it takes.

About 95% of gunfight in is mental. Only 5% is one's ability to shoot well.  NYPD Firearms and Tactics study each gunfight to figure out ways to improve training. They, and other LE agencies, have found there is no correlation between how well someone shoots on the range and how someone performs in a gunfight.  Yes there are good shooters that do well in a gunfight and there are good shooters who miss the bad guy completely.  There are also those marginal shooters who put the bad guy down with one well placed shot.  Why?  Because that shooting skill is just a tiny part of the fight.  Most of the fight is between your ears.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying it's senseless to practice.  Any type of shooting to improve is good.  You want that 5% skillset to be as good as it can be.  You have to recognize a game is a game and a fight is a fight.

More practice doesn't necessarily mean you'll be a better gunfighter.  That stuff is only 5%.

 

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1 hour ago, GRIZ said:

This doesn't happen only with NYC cops.  It can happen in any group of armed individuals.  It's called "contagious shooting" and happens more than a lot of people think.

Don't confuse this with shooting until the bad guy goes down.  Gunfighting isn't USPSA or IDPA where you put 2 rounds in each target and you move on.  You may put 2 or 3 rounds in a bad guy and he still is fighting.  Also don't confuse the number of shots fired by a LEO in a gunfight with poor marksmanship.  I saw a video of an off duty LEO shooting it out with a bad guy in a fast food place.  Clearly a one on one situation.  The LEO, who was a mediocre shooter on the range, fired 11 rds from a G26 in about 2 seconds. IIRC 9 rds hit the bad guy. The bad guy was DRT.

You need to shoot until the bad guy stops. 1,2,3 or 10rds.  Whatever it takes.

About 95% of gunfight in is mental. Only 5% is one's ability to shoot well.  NYPD Firearms and Tactics study each gunfight to figure out ways to improve training. They, and other LE agencies, have found there is no correlation between how well someone shoots on the range and how someone performs in a gunfight.  Yes there are good shooters that do well in a gunfight and there are good shooters who miss the bad guy completely.  There are also those marginal shooters who put the bad guy down with one well placed shot.  Why?  Because that shooting skill is just a tiny part of the fight.  Most of the fight is between your ears.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying it's senseless to practice.  Any type of shooting to improve is good.  You want that 5% skillset to be as good as it can be.  You have to recognize a game is a game and a fight is a fight.

More practice doesn't necessarily mean you'll be a better gunfighter.  That stuff is only 5%.

 

^^^THIS^^^

Not just for @GRIZ  

I'm an Old Fart.  I've participated in contagious shooting drills.  It's EYE-OPENING!  People who are crack shots start putting rounds into a target when no actual threat was presented!  All it takes is one or two POPS from somebody else's sidearm & all hell breaks loose and human nature takes over!

Col. Jeff Cooper, one of the "inventors" of both USPSA & later IDPA (when USPSA became more about speed shooting in the open & less about finding cover) ALWAYS said "surviving a gunfight is a mental exercise!"  and "it's okay to shoot good, but your tactics suck if you're caught completely off-guard!"  The Col. invented his famous Color Code for Condition Status of your situational awareness.  He taught to always be in YELLOW unless & until a threat was identified.   I still have my Gunsite holster for my .45 :) 

Image may contain: 1 person, phone and outdoor

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Thanks for re-posting @GRIZ.  It never gets old.  Change the caliber.  Change the platform.  Use a futuristic "Energy Weapon" 100 years from now.  The human mind won't change in those 100 years.  That's why this 40 year old video works so well today.  The subject matter is TIMELESS...

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On 2/16/2019 at 2:35 PM, GRIZ said:

About 95% of gunfight in is mental. Only 5% is one's ability to shoot well.  NYPD Firearms and Tactics study each gunfight to figure out ways to improve training.

I agree, it's always good to be mentally prepared for any situation.

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....at first I thought after hearing of this incident that it may have been a transmission issue of the description of the BG.... NYC only allows Ht., Wt, Color of Clothing....Not Race / black, white, Asian...which I feel is a real detriment to apprehending a individual or individuals....other than that a "Cross Fire" situation.....training !!!

Remember in NYC the guy with an axe on the street some years back and the result was 9 innocents shot and wounded by LE projectiles....that was ridiculous...OMO.

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1 hour ago, xXxplosive said:

....at first I thought after hearing of this incident that it may have been a transmission issue of the description of the BG.... NYC only allows Ht., Wt, Color of Clothing....Not Race / black, white, Asian..

Is this true? That would be utterly moronic.

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So I read 4 or 5 articles covering this event.  I will lend a humble opinion which will be based on my military and civilian LEO experience and training.

While the articles all differ in how specific the details are it appears the following are facts:  

1:  The two plain clothed officers (Sgt and Detective) responded to call of armed robbery and were first to arrive. Neither had protective vests.  The Sgt for sure had a radio, but no article mentioned if the plain clothed detective had one.

2.  NY Times article here says it was a cell phone store which was "last of a series of store fronts on the north side of Atlantic Ave near 120th St."  At approximately 6:15 PM. 

3:  The two plain clothed officers entered the store prior to the arrival of uniformed officers.

4:  Two plain clothed officers had contact with a suspect inside the store.

5:  Upon exiting the building, the two plain clothed officers were shot by the uniformed officers who arrived to the call. 

After looking at these facts, I base my opinion solely on my training and experience.  

In my opinion, the plain clothed officers who arrived first should have stayed outside, covered the front and rear exits and provided intel to the responding uniformed officers.  I say this for two reasons. 

     First, they have a known armed suspect scenario.  They have no vest and limited tools compared to a             uniformed officers with vest and full duty belt.

     Second, they don't know how many suspects are inside (you all heard of the +1 mindset?)  Plain clothes detectives typically carry a compact size handgun with 1 extra magazine.  You could easily be outgunned in a firefight with multiple armed suspects. 

The time of day (6:15PM) would indicate the business was open.  Considering that and looking at the building location on google earth, it is my opinion it would have been wiser for the two plain clothes officers to set up on the north east and south east corner of the building.  From a corner, one man can cover two sides of a building.  So from here, the one detective on the north east corner can look down the alley behind the building and also cover the east side of the building where there is a side door (see google earth).  The other detective on the south east corner can cover the front side of the building and also cover the same side door on the east side of the building.  Now if they do actually have only one radio between them, they can still see each other while covering 3 sides of the building, leaving the 4th side unseen, but that is fine.  The 4th side is adjacent to the attached business with very low probability of an escape route through that business to the west.  

The man covering the front should get on the radio and call in info:  Number of visible suspects, number of civilians, activity observed (business as usual, people injured, laying prone at gun point, type and number of weapons etc.) suspect location within the business, suspect clothing and description,  all while covering exits.  They should also keep an eyeball on parked cars and see if you have a nervous looking getaway driver waiting for the suspects inside to come out.  This person is potentially armed and is a potential threat from behind when everyone arrives and focuses on the store.  Should the suspects leave, the detectives have eyes on their direction and mode of travel, or if possible take them down after they exit since now you have element of surprise (suspects coming from lit store to dark outside), better cover (parked cars) with civilians not in such close proximity as they would be inside the store.

Setting up a perimeter and providing as much info as possible could allow responding officers to coordinate a much better response to the situation while allowing the plain clothes detectives to stay safer and still play a critical role in responding to the call.  Unless it escalates to a suspect actively shooting, plain clothed detectives should not be first into a scene like this for the reasons mentioned above; no vest limited ammo/tools.       

Again, this is my opinion based solely on my LEO and military training and experience and the facts gathered from multiple articles covering this incident.

 

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The issue of race of Perp(s) was generally ALWAYS GIVEN ON RADIO CALLS to responding officers in the towns that I grew-up (in the last century).  As a member of the local First Aid Squad 4 decades ago we got to use a scanner & learn the "lingo" of various departments.

Only the radio dispatchers didn't use the actual "colors" of the people:

"BOLO for a #2 male w/ dark complexion driving a gold Eldorado at high speed in the vicinity of Blah, Blah Blah".  A NUMBER Code if you will.  "#2" is two characters = easier to type & easier to print on a time-punched card showing dispatch time.

Is it or was it RACIST?  You be the Judge.  I just LIVED THRU IT :) 

Rosey

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