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JMich3

NYC Cops Friendly fire

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Here is full story, two officers shoot suspect with fake gun, while exiting the building another officer shoots both of the officers. But yet they some how blame the perp on the mistaken identity of the friendly fire. 

https://www.news4jax.com/news/national/nypd-detective-killed-in-friendly-fire-incident-commissioner-says

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2 minutes ago, JMich3 said:

Thanks. There was no mention of th third officer in the broadcast i heard. 

They probably did not have all the info.  It is messed up That this can happen but it does and this dept seems to have black cloud.  

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34 minutes ago, tony357 said:

Here is full story, two officers shoot suspect with fake gun, while exiting the building another officer shoots both of the officers. But yet they some how blame the perp on the mistaken identity of the friendly fire. 

https://www.news4jax.com/news/national/nypd-detective-killed-in-friendly-fire-incident-commissioner-says

Not enough info in the article to offer a cursory opinion on the tactics used.

Yes, the perp is at fault and will be charged with the homicide.  Any death that happens during commission of a felony falls on the guy or guys commiting the felony even if they took no action to cause the death. That's the law in just about every place I know.

For example Waldo is the getaway driver and stays in the car.  His partner Brutus goes in to rob the store.  Store owner has heart attack and dies when Brutus announces robbery.  Both Waldo and Brutus can be charged with  homicide.  They don't have to be present or do anything to directly cause the death.

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15 minutes ago, GRIZ said:

Not enough info in the article to offer a cursory opinion on the tactics used.

Yes, the perp is at fault and will be charged with the homicide.  Any death that happens during commission of a felony falls on the guy or guys commiting the felony even if they took no action to cause the death. That's the law in just about every place I know.

For example Waldo is the getaway driver and stays in the car.  His partner Brutus goes in to rob the store.  Store owner has heart attack and dies when Brutus announces robbery.  Both Waldo and Brutus can be charged with  homicide.  They don't have to be present or do anything to directly cause the death.

I understood that, but there is so much fail here it hurts to read.

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9 hours ago, tony357 said:

I understood that, but there is so much fail here it hurts to read.

Yeah, on the surface it seems really bad.

It may make more sense when more details emerge and the timeline is more clear.

 

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Not really surprising about NYPD... I have friends on NYPD and a couple of them are openly ANTI GUN and hate the idea of carrying a gun.  They shoot just the quals.  They want to be cops (for the money and authority) but don't actually want anything to do with guns or training beyond what is minimally required.

Remember the guy who went up to kill boss or coworkers?  Was already leaving and outside... NYPD confronted... perp did not fire a shot yet lots of innocent standbys were shot... by NYPD cops.

Realistically, I don't understand... when you are required to carry a gun... you should be required to have weekly training/range time to keep on improving. 

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3 minutes ago, PeteF said:

So you are not responsible for every round that comes out of your gun?

Okay good to know :facepalm:

@GRIZ  So I get that someone can be made an accessory... BUT... are we also saying LEO are not held responsible?  Sorry, but a copy who kills a friendly should at least be held on trial for manslaughter, especially if it was due to training. 

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2 hours ago, Maksim said:

Not really surprising about NYPD... I have friends on NYPD and a couple of them are openly ANTI GUN and hate the idea of carrying a gun.  They shoot just the quals.  They want to be cops (for the money and authority) but don't actually want anything to do with guns or training beyond what is minimally required.

Remember the guy who went up to kill boss or coworkers?  Was already leaving and outside... NYPD confronted... perp did not fire a shot yet lots of innocent standbys were shot... by NYPD cops.

Realistically, I don't understand... when you are required to carry a gun... you should be required to have weekly training/range time to keep on improving. 

Sadly it comes down to $$$$$$. 35000 NYC police officers firing at a minimum 2000 rounds a year to be minimally proficient on just their service weapon. Now factor in shotgun and rifle. NYC progressives will never allocate the tax dollars necessary to truly properly train their law enforcement officers.

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2 hours ago, Maksim said:

 

Remember the guy who went up to kill boss or coworkers?  Was already leaving and outside... NYPD confronted... perp did not fire a shot yet lots of innocent standbys were shot... by NYPD cops.

Realistically, I don't understand... when you are required to carry a gun... you should be required to have weekly training/range time to keep on improving. 

Are you talking outside at the Empire State Building during rush hour?  Watch the video on line.  The guy came out and started to draw.  The cops were faster.  The cops did the right thing and shot until the guy went down.  The scene was all concrete and metal plenty of chances for ricochets.  But if you read the followup article the bystanders were hit by rounds or pieces of rounds that had already gone through the shooter.

The problem with weekly practice sessions is no one wants to pay for the ammo and time.  There's also the issue of where to shoot in NYC.  Back in the old days there was a range in the basement of just about every precinct.  OSHA shut all but one down.  As of 2005 there was one range in Brooklyn and Rodman's Neck.  Both were pretty busy just shooting quals and advance training was done at Rodman's Neck.  In order to do all of that Rodman's Neck has always been on a 2 shift schedule and at times they were running 3 shifts 24/7.

The agency I worked for required a minimum of 8 hours a quarter.  That was pretty generous.

57 minutes ago, Maksim said:

@GRIZ  So I get that someone can be made an accessory... BUT... are we also saying LEO are not held responsible?  Sorry, but a copy who kills a friendly should at least be held on trial for manslaughter, especially if it was due to training. 

I didn't write the law that's the way it's always been AFAIK.  The concept is the actors committing the felony are responsible for everything that happens.  Cops responding to a crime have no evil intent. No mens rea.  I'm not making light of friendly fire incidents where other cops or civilians are hit.  Nothing is 100%.

There are hundreds cases a year when a civilian accidentally shoots another.  Few of these cases get prosecuted. 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, GRIZ said:

Are you talking outside at the Empire State Building during rush hour?  Watch the video on line.  The guy came out and started to draw.  The cops were faster.  The cops did the right thing and shot until the guy went down.  The scene was all concrete and metal plenty of chances for ricochets.  But if you read the followup article the bystanders were hit by rounds or pieces of rounds that had already gone through the shooter.

The problem with weekly practice sessions is no one wants to pay for the ammo and time.  There's also the issue of where to shoot in NYC.  Back in the old days there was a range in the basement of just about every precinct.  OSHA shut all but one down.  As of 2005 there was one range in Brooklyn and Rodman's Neck.  Both were pretty busy just shooting quals and advance training was done at Rodman's Neck.  In order to do all of that Rodman's Neck has always been on a 2 shift schedule and at times they were running 3 shifts 24/7.

The agency I worked for required a minimum of 8 hours a quarter.  That was pretty generous.

I didn't write the law that's the way it's always been AFAIK.  The concept is the actors committing the felony are responsible for everything that happens.  Cops responding to a crime have no evil intent. No mens rea.  I'm not making light of friendly fire incidents where other cops or civilians are hit.  Nothing is 100%.

There are hundreds cases a year when a civilian accidentally shoots another.  Few of these cases get prosecuted. 

 

 

Thanks for that info.  Pretty crazy that no more ranges in NYC.  Nuts if you think about it... but I suppose that is what happens in a liberal bastion.

I think I am thinking of another case?  

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I do remember the friendly fire incident in Long Island a few years back:

https://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/mta-shot-fellow-geoffrey-breitkopf-friendly-fire-incident-inconsolable-article-1.123891 

IIRC, the mangy neighbor (ex-cop) yelled "Gun! Gun!" when he saw plainclothes officer with an AR-15 slung on his side.  Another MTA officer promptly drew his weapon and shot him dead in the side.

I guess it boils down to training and discipline (or lack thereof).

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6 hours ago, BlueLineFish said:

Great..another NJGF know it all cop judgement thread. I know to exit this stupidity early. 

So nobody is allowed to talk about this "because cops"?

Nobody is saying that the cops are bad people, but NYPD has a reputation that preceeds them and the information that's available thus far paints a pretty bad scenario. 

This is from the Daily News:

https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/ny-metro-cop-shot-friendly-fire-20190213-story.html

"One police source indicated the body cam video taken from five of the officers on the scene captured a chaotic scene where bullets were fired frantically — and randomly.  “You don’t want to see that footage,” said the source. “It was like the Wild West out there. From the cameras, you can’t even see who they are shooting at."

"Neither of the wounded cops was mistaken for a suspect during the frenzied gunfire, cops said. Gorman — who also had no vest on — was wounded in the hip and underwent surgery Wednesday at Jamaica Medical Center, where his condition was stable.. ”


It's a horrible situation but that doesn't mean it can't be discussed.

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The Post has a more descriptive chain of events:

"

Gorman, 31, and two fellow officers were the first to push into the mobile store, which they found abandoned — until Ransom sprang from the back room, pointing the fake gun at them and pulling the trigger, authorities said.

Assuming Ransom’s firearm to be real and simply jammed, the trio took no chances and retreated to the street, where they took up tactical positions along with Simonsen and four other cops, according to police.

Still holding his gun high and dry-firing it, Ransom emerged from the store to find himself in the middle of two waves of blue, with a group of cops including Gorman to his right, and Simonsen among a squad to his left, sources said.

“He’s coming out of the store and they’re down the block to the right and left,” said NYPD Chief of Department Terence Monahan at a Wednesday briefing. “You’re investigating a possible crime and all of a sudden somebody’s pointing what is ­believed to be a firearm at you.”

Seven officers opened fire, squeezing off a total of 42 rounds.

Gorman fired 11 times. Simonsen shot twice.

“Be advised, I’m shot,” a cop, presumably Gorman, can be heard telling a dispatcher in a police radio recording of the drama, posted to Twitter by @NYScanner. “Please set up a route going to Jamaica [Hospital].”

Though the recording is apparently partially redacted, Simonsen’s voice is never heard above the din of gunfire and frantic calls of “Shots fired!”

The mayhem was over in seconds."

https://nypost.com/2019/02/13/how-the-tragic-friendly-fire-death-of-nypd-detective-brian-simonsen-unfolded/

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There are ranges in nyc

sorry but no way to justify friendly fire incidents now or the stuff we saw in the past.  Every cop during the Empire State incident should have been prosecuted.  Police drawing weapons is too common and not enough scrutiny is given. 

you want the gun, you get the responsibility and the consequences for not knowing restraint from force

NO EXCUSE

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13 hours ago, BlueLineFish said:

Great..another NJGF know it all cop judgement thread. I know to exit this stupidity early. 

hold on, it's this attitude right here that has turned much of the public.  You are not above scrutiny, you are not above judgement.  The truth is, most cops absolutely suck with firearms in the tri-state area.  It's appalling how badly trained, how bad the judgement is, and how often accidental discharges occur.

just stop with the nonsense and act accordingly.  If police cleaned up their ranks instead of circling wagons every damn time something happens, less would detest police.  Hell, even some of us with multiple blue in the fam are sick of it!!!!

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11 minutes ago, BlueLineFish said:

Bottom line...dont talk shit unless you have done the job. That goes for anything. Everybody with a keyboard is a police expert. Have yet to see an internet police academy. 

oh stop,  that has no bearing.  Now you sound the like the a$$holes in uniform people detest.  You are not above scrutiny and neither are these officers.  If  you don't know what or who you are shooting, DON'T SHOOT!  pretty fking basic

Your job does not even rank in top 10 most dangerous in America per the labor stats and strip out LA and Austin and not even top 25, not even top 5 for most stressful so don't preach about 'unless you have done the job' bs.  All jobs are unique in their own way with the only exception being that police are publicized more so than 98% of all other jobs.

and don't make me laugh with police academy.  Is that meant to be a joke; I'm serious?????

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