Jump to content
remixer

Whats the story behind this? Henry Rifle Kaboom

Recommended Posts

22 hours ago, remixer said:

I'm curious. if there was a hair line crack in the end of the barrel would the gas pressures from shooting actually open it up to that degree......

I guess well have to see what henry says...

Customer says he did not even notice till he was taking the rifle out for the 3rdtime and was going to clean it first.

For the way it burst, it's not a real squib. It would have to be an underloaded cartridge that stopped basically right at the muzzle. This is unlikley but possible. 

My guess is the following: 

There's probably something wrong with the metal of the barrel. They got a bad batch of stainless with impurities or weird crystal structures or something. Much like SA did when they had the spate of stainless slides snapping off at the slide cut on their 1911s. 

It is also not uncommon for the machining for a lever action with a tube magazine to negatively impact the boar as far as accuracy on a good sample, and this is often due to the machining changing the bore diameter or roundness. 

Combine that with bum steel and the fact the angle on the dovetail is a stress riser, and one of two things happened. 

1) It was a bad enough combination that it the bullets hammering into the bore constriction were able to basically split the end of the barrel open. 

2) Lots of soft lead ammo was being shot, and the  bore restriction at the cut was effectively scraping off some lead and causing a build up until #1 happened. 

#2 could in theory happen badly enough to kill a gun without bad steel being involved, but usually you stop shooting first and try to figure out why your gun is do horribly inaccurate. 

 

  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@remixer

Did not explode?

Do you think EVERY squib ends up in exploded barrels? LOL.

Based on where the bulges are, it was not a typical squib, i.e. no powder, but likely and undercharged round that failed to leave the barrel.  With him using mediocre ammo, this is very likely.

The reason why it did not go real KABOOM is much like a firecracker.

I.e. hold one in open hand vs hold one in a closed hand.

The SAVING GRACE of that is where the obstruction occurred, at the end of the barrel.... so when it gave out... the weakest link failed to relieve the pressure.  (near end of barrel, structural weak link with the dovetail).

Lastly, the guy spent how much on the gun?  Of course he wants it to be manufacturer defect.... "No, I never shot reloaded ammo I bought from someone."  Or perhaps it was an odd lot of ammo he bought at a gun show in those packages?

Most of all, once again, HOW THE F DO YOU NOT NOTICE YOUR BARREL JUST RUPTURED?!?!?!!?  

Did he not look at the front of the gun when he was putting it away?

Either 1. He is lying.... or 2. You cannot take anything he says seriously in terms of accuracy, how the gun felt, etc.... WHEN HE DID NOT NOTICE HIS GUN BARREL IS RUPTURED!

And while I agree 100% that it may not be a full blown squib, you cannot deny that there was barrel obstruction!  The barrel would not be bulged out like that.

Heck, it really might have been a cleaning brush left in there or a cotton patch too. 

Yes, I am sure Henry will take care of him to avoid the potential of bad PR BUT it would be completely unwise to say the shooter had nothing to do with it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, remixer said:

2. If it was not a squib and just a crack and opened due to pressure it might not be that noticeable when shooting it.

Thinking on this a little more...  The position that crack is clocked should be like having an anti-compensator.  I would think the gasses escaping the crack would cause a noticeable increase of muzzle flip.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Scorpio64 said:

Thinking on this a little more...  The position that crack is clocked should be like having an anti-compensator.  I would think the gasses escaping the crack would cause a noticeable increase of muzzle flip.

.357 in a lever gun is pretty tame. 38 more so. You might not notice. 

however, unless it was cleaned after the failure, a slowly growing crack would leave a lot of residue form the leaking gasses. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Maksim said:

Yes, I am sure Henry will take care of him to avoid the potential of bad PR BUT it would be completely unwise to say the shooter had nothing to do with it. 

Henry will take car of him because where the failure occurred is a place where lever guns with tube magazines can have a lot of issues. 

As I stated in a previous explanation, if the barrel got out of spec  when being machined, which can happen for a number of reasons, It could have been building up lead there until it effectively turned into a partial obstruction.

Could be a QC issue, could be a bad batch of steel. The cost of a barrel replacement will be small vs knowing what kind of problem they have. Even if it is an end user problem. 

 

  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/20/2019 at 2:53 PM, Maksim said:

@remixer

Did not explode?

Do you think EVERY squib ends up in exploded barrels? LOL. 

Based on where the bulges are, it was not a typical squib, i.e. no powder, but likely and undercharged round that failed to leave the barrel.  With him using mediocre ammo, this is very likely. 

The reason why it did not go real KABOOM is much like a firecracker.

I.e. hold one in open hand vs hold one in a closed hand.

The SAVING GRACE of that is where the obstruction occurred, at the end of the barrel.... so when it gave out... the weakest link failed to relieve the pressure.  (near end of barrel, structural weak link with the dovetail).

Lastly, the guy spent how much on the gun?  Of course he wants it to be manufacturer defect.... "No, I never shot reloaded ammo I bought from someone."  Or perhaps it was an odd lot of ammo he bought at a gun show in those packages?

Most of all, once again, HOW THE F DO YOU NOT NOTICE YOUR BARREL JUST RUPTURED?!?!?!!?  

Did he not look at the front of the gun when he was putting it away?

Either 1. He is lying.... or 2. You cannot take anything he says seriously in terms of accuracy, how the gun felt, etc.... WHEN HE DID NOT NOTICE HIS GUN BARREL IS RUPTURED!

And while I agree 100% that it may not be a full blown squib, you cannot deny that there was barrel obstruction!  The barrel would not be bulged out like that.

Heck, it really might have been a cleaning brush left in there or a cotton patch too. 

Yes, I am sure Henry will take care of him to avoid the potential of bad PR BUT it would be completely unwise to say the shooter had nothing to do with it. 

Why exactly do you think your opinions are facts?

Based on these photos and the situation as i explained  from the customer you have came to some conclusions based on nothing.

1. You DONT know it was a squib
2. You DONT know the accuracy would have been affected to the point where the average shooter would even notice.
3. You DONT know if it was not metal fatigue.
4. You DONT know if would be something noticeable without looking at the end of the barrel before putting it away.
5. You DONT know there was an obstruction of any kind.

Your conclusion is that he's a liar or i should not take anything he says seriously because well YOU know exactly what happened.
I simply posted this to start a conversation as to what people thought... I did not post this to have someone who thinks they know everything pretty much shit on someone they don't even know then question his honesty.   

That was my mistake.

 

 

  • FacePalm 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, remixer said:

2. You DONT know the accuracy would have been affected to the point where the average shooter would even notice.

Sorry brah, even a nick on a crown can trash accuracy.  The way that barrel split, it looks like the owners name should be Punk'n Puss.  It's no wonder that cat never killed the filthy rodent.  That rifle should pattern like a shotgun the way it is now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, remixer said:

Why exactly do you think your opinions are facts?

Based on these photos and the situation as i explained  from the customer you have came to some conclusions based on nothing.

1. You DONT know it was a squib
2. You DONT know the accuracy would have been affected to the point where the average shooter would even notice.
3. You DONT know if it was not metal fatigue.
4. You DONT know if would be something noticeable without looking at the end of the barrel before putting it away.
5. You DONT know there was an obstruction of any kind.

Your conclusion is that he's a liar or i should not take anything he says seriously because well YOU know exactly what happened.
I simply posted this to start a conversation as to what people thought... I did not post this to have someone who thinks they know everything pretty much shit on someone they don't even know then question his honesty.   

That was my mistake.

 

 

Steve,  

Of course it was metal fatigue and it is all Henry's fault and a manufacturing defect.

You are right, we do not know that it was NOT metal fatigue...

BUT metal fatigue would generally not cause the barrel to bulge. That is what people here are trying to tell you.

It is quite possible that there was a manufacturing defect that LEAD to an obstruction, but most certainly there was an obstruction.  

No one is dismissing a manufacturing defect, not even I... but you are completely dismissing anything that points to the fact that the shooter may have and likely contributed.  

So along your lines... "You DONT know it was NOT a squib."

Btw, I very quickly dismissed the broad "SQUIB" definition as there was most certainly powder in the round... just not enough of it.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Scorpio64 said:

Sorry brah, even a nick on a crown can trash accuracy.  The way that barrel split, it looks like the owners name should be Punk'n Puss.  It's no wonder that cat never killed the filthy rodent.  That rifle should pattern like a shotgun the way it is now.

The way he shoots  it might pattern that way on a regular basis.  I cant vouch for shooting ability or accuracy .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anything that would have blown apart a perfectly good barrel, would have definitely caused other issues.

Squibs don't cause damage because 1 bullet hits another, they cause damage due to over-pressure which happens the entire length of action. Blown case, blown extractor, stuck case , up to and including broken action and receiver parts.

As far as accuracy being affected, well that can easily be tested; but I wouldn't jump to say that should have been immediately noticed.  If the shooter was just plinking offhand at 25 yards, then it would likely produce enough accuracy to not be obvious.

 

 

  • Like 1
  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Maksim said:

Steve,  

Of course it was metal fatigue and it is all Henry's fault and a manufacturing defect.

You are right, we do not know that it was NOT metal fatigue...

BUT metal fatigue would generally not cause the barrel to bulge. That is what people here are trying to tell you.

It is quite possible that there was a manufacturing defect that LEAD to an obstruction, but most certainly there was an obstruction.  

No one is dismissing a manufacturing defect, not even I... but you are completely dismissing anything that points to the fact that the shooter may have and likely contributed.  

So along your lines... "You DONT know it was NOT a squib."

Btw, I very quickly dismissed the broad "SQUIB" definition as there was most certainly powder in the round... just not enough of it.  

not a squib by any definition and the bulge is not really a bulge.  any 'squib' whether big or small would never have such a linear break.  I would bet you could search the internet for a week and not find one like this. 

I've personally witnessed 2 kabooms from bad ammo and have been around long enough to know that anyone having even the smallest 'squib' would know it immediately.  It is not a subtle happening by any stretch.

Henry had issues with muzzle loaders where barrels were splitting so it's not unheard of from them

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, myhatinthering said:

not a squib by any definition and the bulge is not really a bulge.  any 'squib' whether big or small would never have such a linear break.  I would bet you could search the internet for a week and not find one like this. 

I've personally witnessed 2 kabooms from bad ammo and have been around long enough to know that anyone having even the smallest 'squib' would know it immediately.  It is not a subtle happening by any stretch.

Henry had issues with muzzle loaders where barrels were splitting so it's not unheard of from them

Will show you... But so far as an RO in USPSA, through out the years I stopped at least 5 Squibs... believe it or not many at the national matches.  A regular no powder squib sounds different, yes... BUT an underpowered charge is very different.  

In fact, testing my own ammo when I had no lock out die... 9mm, generally around 1150 FPS.... had a few that were barely 600 fps... sounded exactly the same.

By Squib I mean any round that does not leave the barrel... 

And as discussed with steve in chat... quite a few squibs simply get shot out by oblivious shooters.  Not every squib being shot ends up in a big blow.

Once again, I am not saying this gun blew up BECAUSE of a squib/underpowered charge... it is likely... BUT there was an obstruction caused by something, manufacturing defect or what not.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, Maksim said:

Will show you... But so far as an RO in USPSA, through out the years I stopped at least 5 Squibs... believe it or not many at the national matches.  A regular no powder squib sounds different, yes... BUT an underpowered charge is very different.  

In fact, testing my own ammo when I had no lock out die... 9mm, generally around 1150 FPS.... had a few that were barely 600 fps... sounded exactly the same.

By Squib I mean any round that does not leave the barrel... 

And as discussed with steve in chat... quite a few squibs simply get shot out by oblivious shooters.  Not every squib being shot ends up in a big blow.

Once again, I am not saying this gun blew up BECAUSE of a squib/underpowered charge... it is likely... BUT there was an obstruction caused by something, manufacturing defect or what not.  

it's not a squib, not even close.  with all due respect and I mean that as tone doesn't come across in these message chats, I question if you have actually seen a squib or been around a barrel affected by one.  Squibs are not as common as some would lead you to believe.  A squib leads to uncontrolled 'mini-explosion' that ruptures a barrel.  A barrel will blow outward and you'll have non-linear breaks in the barrel or firearm.  We simply don't see this here, not even close. 

I've never heard of a squib being shot out by a shooter and them not knowing it.  Bullets deform to diameter of the barrel and being struck by another object with minimum 20k psi would be known.  I'm sure you can find in internet retardation someone will say it happens but it doesn't, unless you are talking 1 in 100mm here and we are not. 

as I said, I'm willing to put my money where my experience and education is.  I'll bet you the price of your 686 and you bet the firearm.  I'll even leave said cash with Steve when I pick up the 19 next week and he can send to whoever is right on this.   When you lose, you can send the handgun to Steve.  Deal?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, myhatinthering said:

it's not a squib, not even close.  with all due respect and I mean that as tone doesn't come across in these message chats, I question if you have actually seen a squib or been around a barrel affected by one.  Squibs are not as common as some would lead you to believe.  A squib leads to uncontrolled 'mini-explosion' that ruptures a barrel.  A barrel will blow outward and you'll have non-linear breaks in the barrel or firearm.  We simply don't see this here, not even close. 

I've never heard of a squib being shot out by a shooter and them not knowing it.  Bullets deform to diameter of the barrel and being struck by another object with minimum 20k psi would be known.  I'm sure you can find in internet retardation someone will say it happens but it doesn't, unless you are talking 1 in 100mm here and we are not. 

as I said, I'm willing to put my money where my experience and education is.  I'll bet you the price of your 686 and you bet the firearm.  I'll even leave said cash with Steve when I pick up the 19 next week and he can send to whoever is right on this.   When you lose, you can send the handgun to Steve.  Deal?

 

Squibs are not as common with factory ammo but they are common with reloaders.  A very large chunk of shooters who shoot matches... reload.  Most of the time I spend shooting, is matches.  I RO'ed everything from local to many years of national matches, running hundreds of shooters for a week straight.  You see it all.  Heck, I even had a squib last time I was out at the range when the powder measure did not like the new powder and did not meter it well. 

A squib CAN and often does lead but it also depends on where and how the other bullet is stuck.  There are plenty of times where people shoot it out.  At close range, one match (national)... a guy shot a target that we suspected but could not stop him in time, there were two bullet holes, one full diameter, and other was highly deformed.

Just because we live in NJ does not mean Grizzly bears are rare.  They are rare in NJ.

Same with shooters... at the regular range... with factory ammo... sure, I agree 100% it is rare.

BUT, shoot 50+k rounds per year and hang out with other people who do... you see it happen far more.

Granted, I have been shooting for only 15 years, BUT in that time have seen plenty of guns blow up, heck, even a gun lock up on factory ammo when it turned out Winchester did not put the flash hole in the brass case.  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

well that's not useful.  not that I have any skin in the game, but I'm curious as to what the failure mode was. I could see them being concerned about every Bubba wanting to send in their gun for a new barrel because they saw something though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, sota said:

well that's not useful.  not that I have any skin in the game, but I'm curious as to what the failure mode was. I could see them being concerned about every Bubba wanting to send in their gun for a new barrel because they saw something though.

I doubt the 12 people that read this will cause any issues with Henry :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, remixer said:

Funny you mention that... I called my guy at Henry and he said your guys a jerk :)

 

Funny thing though, our "guys" are actually "gals".

Henry won't investigate the gun, they don't care.  Replace it and move on.  It would be a waste of time to go after the owner or ammunition manufacturer.  They want the owner happy, so he buys another Henry.  Win win 

  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Scorpio64 said:

114 replies

1,817 views

remixer

1 hour ago

That's mostly me LOL

All kidding aside.. its a popular thread....

 

21 minutes ago, Ray Ray said:

Funny thing though, our "guys" are actually "gals".

Henry won't investigate the gun, they don't care.  Replace it and move on.  It would be a waste of time to go after the owner or ammunition manufacturer.  They want the owner happy, so he buys another Henry.  Win win 

Honestly.... I never doubted henry would replace the barrel... I know they have amazing CS and go beyond what they need to in most cases.

I posted this more of a conversation thing not a henry thing.

BTW do not assume the gender them :)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, myhatinthering said:

it's not a squib, not even close.  with all due respect and I mean that as tone doesn't come across in these message chats, I question if you have actually seen a squib or been around a barrel affected by one.  Squibs are not as common as some would lead you to believe.  A squib leads to uncontrolled 'mini-explosion' that ruptures a barrel.  A barrel will blow outward and you'll have non-linear breaks in the barrel or firearm.  We simply don't see this here, not even close. 

I've never heard of a squib being shot out by a shooter and them not knowing it.  Bullets deform to diameter of the barrel and being struck by another object with minimum 20k psi would be known.  I'm sure you can find in internet retardation someone will say it happens but it doesn't, unless you are talking 1 in 100mm here and we are not. 

as I said, I'm willing to put my money where my experience and education is.  I'll bet you the price of your 686 and you bet the firearm.  I'll even leave said cash with Steve when I pick up the 19 next week and he can send to whoever is right on this.   When you lose, you can send the handgun to Steve.  Deal?

 

Sigh. Come on folks. Yes lots of this is speculation, but in theory educated speculation. Why won't folks be civil about it. 

Squibs, if indeed you aren't referring to something different because you use the jargon different, don't guarantee nothing but an undercharged round. Some folks will use it to mean a primer only, no powder load. Some will use it to mean anything drastically undercharged so as to induce a malfunction or dangerous situation. You may well be talking past each other. 

I know Maks is talking from pistol shooting experience. And yes, In the pistol shooting world, shooting out a squib does happen without rupturing the barrel. It is not usually done without harm. It'll ring the barrel usually. You'll see this come up a lot in the land of 1911s because the platform is designed to fire a 20k psi cartridge, and with modern metallurgy and because the platform was overbuilt to being with, it happily digests 35k psi .40 ammo all day and night. So in the world of bullseye where some of the shooters might as well be shooting air pistols based on muzzle velocity of their mouse fart loads, squibs do happen, and they do get shot out, and the pressure level isn't that high. In USPSA or IDPA it is more common that the more common faliur is BANG - bang- BANG-lockup, no obstruction. Where the squib lodged in the barrel and the shooter and RO didn't notice or catch it in time, and the bore is clear because the blockage was shot out. THe lockup usually occurs because the barrel is ringed. With a bull barrel 1911, it may not even really stop because you have so much steel at the point of the impact and the fitting is less picky than a bushing gun. Such internet trolls as the H&K engineering team designed the USP pistol and as part of the vetting of the design, they required it be able to shoot out a squib round and still function (yes, it damaged the barrel, but it would still feed and fire). 

This is all different than a rifle round in a rifle. MUCH higher pressures there. But in this case we are talking about pistol cartridges in a carbine. When evaluating PCC for static steel, we chroned a bunch of carbines. Many of them shooting hot .38 super to drive comped pistols. These were generally hitting .357 magnum velocities out of 5" barrels. Out of 16" barrel they were hitting... the same velocities. Which was a surprising result, but the truth. By the time you are 14" down a 16" or 18" lever gun barrel, the pressures have dropped to WAY, WAY below the 35kpsi in the chamber at ignition. The shooter claimed to be shooting both .357 and .38 special. So we may be talking 17k at the chamber. 

There are literally a BUNCH of ways this can happen based on teh pictures. And BTW the pictures look like the metal was thinnest at the cut for a particular groove of rifling So it split there cleanly. You can see similar thing with banana peeled barrels, you can also get rifle failures where you don't peel the barrel, but ring the barrel and split it at the stress risers where the lands and grooves meet. Sometimes those ring type bursts only breech one side because the button cut that groove a bit deeper. Pistol, rifle, regardless of cartridge, unless you have an overcharge seriously kabooming things, have a high tendency to split along the rifling. Which are fairly linear. From my experience, overcharges are what tend to cause random fracturing of gun bits. But that is pretty much at the action end of things for obvious reasons, and thus involves area where the stress risers likely aren't straightish lines. 

So what do we know from the shooter? 

They didn't notice any change in accuracy. If there were issue with the barrel, it could have shot like poop from second one. IF the shooter sucks, they may just not be accurate, or were using it at such close range you couldn't tell the difference between marginal shooter and "whoa that's not right".  Lever guns are not the most accurate things. 

They were shooting both .38 and .357 IIRC (since the initial post has been wiped I gotta rely on my memory). This can lead to things. 

So what can we say? It didnt' blow up at the action. Thus it probably wasn't an overcharged round. 

It is technically possible there was no obstruction. IMO for that to be feasible, there'd need to be a defect in the metal or something really messed up about the machining. But a crack forms at a stress riser at the dovetail cut from it barrel whipping or something, and it would crack along the cut and swell until pressure dropped enough. That might not happen until it hit the weakest land groove interface and then it tore up that. 

I don't consider that high probability. 

The other possibility is that there was an obstruction. There's LOTS of ways this could happen. Some of them REALLY non obvious. 

1) Muzzle in the dirt or equivalent. Sure. Maybe. In a rifle cartridge definitely, but .357 and ESPECIALLY .38 special out of a lever gun, I'm doubting it unless there was also something wrong with the metal or something grievously out of whack with the machining.

2) Left a cleaning jag in there or similar. depengin on the  way it went down and the chocie of tools, marginally more likely than sume dirt in the muzzle. 

All the below are potentially assisted and or exacerbated by potentially bad metal, or by the fact that the dovetail cuts in the barrel often cause minor constrictions of the bore. 

3) Squib round. Undercharged, leaves a bullet in the barrel. Full powered round. BLAMMO. 

4) Mixing ammo. Lets say you were mixing lead 38 special and SJHP, SJSP, or JHP .357 with it.  It headspaces off the rim. .38 is shorter and leaves a ring of soot and lead around the chamber mouth. Then the .357 gets the jacket stripped off it when this build up gets hefty enough. gets hung up at the binding you get from the dovetail cuts. The partial obstruction gets shot out as fragments when the barrel splits. 

5) something like a SJSP gets peeled by the tight spot and repeat some form of the above. 

6) shooting soft lead, and it scrapes a bit off at the binding near the dovetail cuts. repeat above scenario. 

7) There's a crack or other defect that starts to bulge but not rupture. Something like really weak .38 special lead loads (maybe they bought some cowboy loads?) are barely trickling out the barrel to start and once bulged enough pressure drops and obstruction. Fire another round and it cracks but shoots out the obstruction or it goes flying once the barrel opens up. 

etc. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  • Agree 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.



×
×
  • Create New...