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SIGMan Freud

Telling FedEx you're shipping a handgun...

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As a non-licensee, I just shipped my first handgun using ShipMyGun.com (Bud's shipping service). They were great - fast and less than half of what I would have paid on my own.

So according to the ATF and the guidelines posted by both UPS and FedEx, handguns need to ship overnight and you have to declare when you drop them off that the package contains an unloaded handgun. So, as I read the statute (18 U.S.C. § 922 - U.S. Code - Unannotated Title 18. Crimes and Criminal Procedure § 922), it's pretty clear that's the law, like it or not. So my question is - how would I ever prove that I did that? If I could potentially be prosecuted for not declaring something to the common carrier, what could be my defense? There was nothing recorded on the receipt she gave me and when I told her, she basically shrugged and said "OK".

As silly as the law/rule seems to be, I wouldn't do what many I read do and ship the gun as "machine parts" 3-day. That's definitely a way to get jammed up if the gun breaks free of the box or is stolen since they'd never accept a declared handgun as a shipment other than priority overnight.

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35 minutes ago, Handyman said:

I've shipped "machine parts" all over the place and never had a problem. You have to be able to pack a box that won't break open. 

I get that it's pretty easy to circumvent the rules and save some bucks. As a matter of quantitative risk analysis, I'd say it's low probability that something would go wrong, but high risk if it does. I'm sure you're shipping to an FFL/licensee and everything about the transaction is legit, but not telling the carrier is violating federal law and a black mark no gun owner wants to have on his record. That'll shut anyone down and get all your toys taken away. Not worth it to me. Do we know that carriers don't randomly X-ray packages? 

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ATF only cares that you tell the carrier. If UPS or Fedex would accept ground handgun transport (and you declared) that would be OK with the ATF - but they don’t. You guys playing cute will probably be fine unless something goes wrong - then you’re looking at a jackpot. Roll the dice! 

 

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FedEx rules state that it has to be shipped "priority express" or somesuch.  It's not overnight.  Honestly, it takes 3-4 days.  I declare it as a gun and that's as far as it goes.  Costs around 30 +/- so far to get it where it needs to go.  I'm fine with that.  

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14 hours ago, PK90 said:

I get handguns delivered UPS and FedEx Ground all the time. No law is broken, just the carriers rules. Meh.

UPS and FedEx seem to have no issue with FFL to FFL ground shipping just non-FFL to FFL or factory or to yourself.

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18 hours ago, SIGMan Freud said:

So my question is - how would I ever prove that I did that? If I could potentially be prosecuted for not declaring something to the common carrier, what could be my defense? There was nothing recorded on the receipt she gave me and when I told her, she basically shrugged and said "OK".

Super simple. 

Insure the package. It will ask as to the contents and value. Put firearm and the value of said firearm. 

Granted I usually do UPS and do it at a UPS customer counter, not pickup, but you get a receipt and everything. Pretty unequivocal proof you told the carrier. 

 

 

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So basically you do have to tell the person working the counter that the container contains a firearm if you have NOT printed the label online. If you print the label online there is an option to select firearm, in that case you don't have to tell the person working the counter. And there is no indication on the box or label that it's a firearm. The reason for this is that IF the package is lost, the shipping companies know that the contents included a firearms and take greater measures to find the package then they would if it was a toaster. They might also need to declare the loss to law enforcement, but no sure about that.

As far as overnight is concerned, that is not 100% accurate, it just has to be a premium service, such as overnight or 2nd day air.

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If you enter "firearm" online, it will print on label. NO GOOD. the only time firearm packages are handled differently is when you send it Registered Mail. Everything else is the same as if sending used diapers. 

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19 minutes ago, PK90 said:

If you enter "firearm" online, it will print on label. NO GOOD. the only time firearm packages are handled differently is when you send it Registered Mail. Everything else is the same as if sending used diapers. 

No, it does not show up on the label, not for common carriers, maybe for USPS. There is actual a a warning if you look at the direction, to NOT have ANY indication ANYWHERE on the packaging that a firearm is in the package.

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16 minutes ago, MartyZ said:

No, it does not show up on the label, not for common carriers, maybe for USPS. There is actual a a warning if you look at the direction, to NOT have ANY indication ANYWHERE on the packaging that a firearm is in the package.

Where do you enter that? I have shipped FedEx and UPS online before, and now use Quickbooks. I don't recall a field where you would indicate that a firearm is in the box.

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I first tried printing a label with my own FedEx account, just to see what it would cost me. There was NO OPTION to declare the contents a firearm of any kind, let alone a handgun. Closest option was for "Dangerous Goods", but an unloaded firearm is inert and not considered dangerous - that's for flammables, corrosives, lithium batteries, etc..

Instead, I went with Bud's ShipMyGun.com and put in all the FFL info and the fact that I was shipping a handgun. No mention of brand, type, caliber, serial no. Just "Handgun". Bud's emailed me a label to print. Less than half the cost for the same Priority Overnight service.

When I tendered the package and declared "it contains and unloaded handgun". The woman said, "OK", but she did print out and slap on another sticker. Doubt it was anything specific as she did nothing more than scan my pre-printed label and slap on her additional label almost simultaneously. Maybe that had some secret info on it (doubt it) based on what Bud's entered, but I think it was just a sorting label. Maybe next time I'll ask or someone who works at FedEx can chime in.

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I've shipped multiple handguns through UPS and Fedex hubs over the years (mainly through Fedex these days because its easier for me to get to, and I print my own label through my personal account). I always tell the person I hand the package to that I'm shipping a firearm, and I always get an "umm, OK" in response. They have never written anything down or entered any info into a computer, they just scan my label and throw the package onto a conveyor belt, so it seems that while we comply with the rules by declaring we're shipping a firearm, they don't do anything with this information or document it in any way.

My concern is if the package is lost/stolen and I need to file a claim. General consensus appears to be that if you don't follow all of the carrier's rules (which include declaring the contents as a gun) they'll use that as an excuse to not honor the insurance claim. If the shipper doesn't document anything when we declare it, we can't prove we followed the rules. This seems to be more of a real-world concern for most of us than getting jammed up for legal issues when shipping. Anyone have any actual experiences with a lost gun and getting UPS or Fedex to pay the declared value?

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You could always record on your phone the audio of the counter transaction where you tell the clerk you are shipping a firearm.  NJ is a state that doesn’t require that the other party give consent to the recording.    You’re unlikely to ever need it to cover your butt if something happens to the shipment, but it’s cheap (Free) insurance. 

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When I ship, I tell them there is a firearm in the box. That is all. I don't think it would ever really become an issue, even if they don't do there part (whatever it may be) afterwards.

If some type of craziness did occur with the shipment and they accuse me of not declaring it, they can read my lips on the video. Lol

I just had a shipment of .22 arrive and the package was resealed with 61 rounds missing and an undetermined number damaged. It was FedEx and they don't seem to care in the slightest.

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2 hours ago, RWL62 said:

I've shipped multiple handguns through UPS and Fedex hubs over the years (mainly through Fedex these days because its easier for me to get to, and I print my own label through my personal account). I always tell the person I hand the package to that I'm shipping a firearm, and I always get an "umm, OK" in response. They have never written anything down or entered any info into a computer, they just scan my label and throw the package onto a conveyor belt, so it seems that while we comply with the rules by declaring we're shipping a firearm, they don't do anything with this information or document it in any way.

My concern is if the package is lost/stolen and I need to file a claim. General consensus appears to be that if you don't follow all of the carrier's rules (which include declaring the contents as a gun) they'll use that as an excuse to not honor the insurance claim. If the shipper doesn't document anything when we declare it, we can't prove we followed the rules. This seems to be more of a real-world concern for most of us than getting jammed up for legal issues when shipping. Anyone have any actual experiences with a lost gun and getting UPS or Fedex to pay the declared value?

You really don't know what they enter into the computer when you present the gun at the desk at FEDEX.  Firearm may be only one block they check on the computer.

When I've shipped a firearm at FEDEX they've always walked it to the back.  Security cage?  That's what I've been told.  There were people shipping bigger more valuable packages when I was there.

The only experience I've had with FEDEX losing a gun was when I was still working and shipping a box of handguns to our centralized armory.  Box arrived broken and one gun was missing.  Most likely box broke, gun fell out  and was stolen.  Got check for full declared value from FEDEX in less than 2 weeks.  No questions asked.

I shipped and received probably a couple thousand guns when I was working.  That was the only one that was lost.

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Print you labels online, call for a pickup, then keep your mouth shut hand the driver your package. Do you really think that Davidsons, Classic Firearms, Palmetto State Armory, et al are telling the drivers they're shipping a handgun in box 1, ammo in box 2, and accessories in box 3? 

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On 3/7/2019 at 2:44 PM, PK90 said:

Print you labels online, call for a pickup, then keep your mouth shut hand the driver your package. Do you really think that Davidsons, Classic Firearms, Palmetto State Armory, et al are telling the drivers they're shipping a handgun in box 1, ammo in box 2, and accessories in box 3? 

I think they have FFLs and different rules than us consumers. 

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I just shipped another handgun by FedEx using Bud's ShipMyGun.com. I highly recommend that service. When I dropped off the package and declared it an unloaded handgun, the woman said, "Umm. Okay". I asked her what telling her that does as far as the package goes - any special handling or notation in their system? She said, "Nope - it's treated just like every overnight package, but you have to ship to an FFL and the gun has to be unloaded, no ammo in the package and no markings on the box indicating the contents."

I asked if they lookup the address and match it to FFL addresses. She said "Nope - the system doesn't know it's a firearm and we have no idea who you're shipping it to."

So basically, the ATF requires you to tell the common carrier - period. It's FedEx's rules that it must ship overnight. So if you ship ground or 2-day and the gun gets lost or stolen and you report it, it could be inferred that you didn't tell FedEx, otherwise they would have stopped you from sending it slower/cheaper. Yeah, you could play dumb and say, "I told the girl and she let it through" and that might cost someone their job or they could put it on you for violating the CFA (Commerce in Firearms and Ammo) statute, which is a felony.

That said, for the $10 it might save me, I don't want to get jammed up or lose someone their job, so I comply with the "declare for no apparent reason" law.

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The requirement for handguns and long guns is different.  You an ask the person at fedex and they'll tell you the cheapest way to ship with the rules.  I've shipped over 100 guns, sales and to myself, and have alwasy declared them at the FedEx store.

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On 3/25/2019 at 3:44 PM, Rob0115 said:

The requirement for handguns and long guns is different.  You an ask the person at fedex and they'll tell you the cheapest way to ship with the rules.  I've shipped over 100 guns, sales and to myself, and have alwasy declared them at the FedEx store.

Exactly my experience also.

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No experience shipping rifles but Ive shipped my handgun before at UPS. Had to go to a UPS customer service center ( not a UPS Store). I declared a firearm and the employee did make a note in the system as well as asked me for a value. When he printed the shipping, there was 0 indication as to what was inside the box, but on the receipt he gave me, it noted there was a handgun inside. Had it shipped overnight to Wilson Combat and had no issues. 

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