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Zeke

Torn between two choices

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7 minutes ago, High Exposure said:

Forget what I said about .308 Zeke.

I defer to @Shane45 and @Bully

If they say there is no value in learning in .308, then follow their advice. They are the SME on this stuff.

I guess that’s like me telling people to not worry about mastering Iron Sights before going to a RDS.... it may slay a sacred cow, but the BBQ is going to be amazing!

Evolution, always something better on the horizon. Ideally I would have multiple rifles in multiple calibers and it would be awesomeness! But I cannot. Because I am a poor.

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1 hour ago, Ray Ray said:

Let's be realistic here, it's all the same.  Gun companies want you to buy the new hotness. 

 

556?  Played out

308?  Too old

45acp?  Too big

10mm!  Wow!  6.5 Creedmore!  Amazing 

300BLK!  A game changer!

No, they are not.  Buy a 308 @Zeke, it is proven and reliable and plentiful. 

You are kind of avoiding the question. Why get a 308 when a 6.5cm is better in every way, especially when the goal is 1000 yards on a 12" target? 6.5 ammo is proven, reliable and readily available as well. A couple years ago, the ammo situation was different but not now. Everyone is moving to this caliber for a reason. faster, flatter,  more resistance to wind. Recoil on a 6.5 is less than a 308. Costs are also the same. Theres no advantage to a 308 at this range. If you were looking for a pure hunting rifle where your shot might be 2-300 yards max, I would maybe agree, go with a 308 but this doesnt seems to be the case. 

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1 hour ago, Ray Ray said:

Let's be realistic here, it's all the same.  Gun companies want you to buy the new hotness. 

 

556?  Played out

308?  Too old

45acp?  Too big

10mm!  Wow!  6.5 Creedmore!  Amazing 

300BLK!  A game changer!

No, they are not.  Buy a 308 @Zeke, it is proven and reliable and plentiful. 

Ray, I would agree that the consumer should be cautious about marketing. This is prudent. I am NOT a fan of boutique calibers. With that being said, the advantages of the 6.5, for example, are extremely well established. It has moved far far far beyond a boutique caliber to full adoption. Do you think SOCOM would have adopted 6.5cm if there wasn't significant advantage to it? When I did a precision rifle Demo with Cadex Defence for the Egyption military, they were interested in going 6.5 as well. It is the direction of the short action caliber for precision rifle. If it was 10 years ago, even though I was already running these calibers since about 04, I would have still recommended the 308 for many of the reasons you stated. But not now. There is simply no point in it other than you want a 308. I love 5.56. I love 308 and still have quite a few in gas guns as the platform is mature. .45 is home for me and still relevant especially with the rise of capacity restricted states. 10mm was introduced in 1983 so Im not sure where your going with that one. 300Blk has got a lot of momentum but Id still consider it a bit boutique and Im not sure I truly see the utility of it. 

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10 minutes ago, High Exposure said:

Forget what I said about .308 Zeke.

I defer to @Shane45 and @Bully

If they say there is no value in learning in .308, then follow their advice. They are the SME on this stuff.

I guess that’s like me telling people to not worry about mastering Iron Sights before going to a RDS.... it may slay a sacred cow, but the BBQ is going to be amazing!

No no, I think you are right and there are really two distinct components to this...

.308 is common so there is value there, despite SAMI loaded ammo not being the best for long range.  Reloading overcomes many of the issues.  

Main knock on .308 bullets, and not just .308 and applies to most calibers firing .308 bullets is that there are better (ballistically) bullets out there.  Those are the 6.5.

For instance, the Hornady ELD Match bullets have a BC of near .80.

So we now have SAMI spec loaded factory ammo that is far better... it shoots flatter, and more forgiving to wind, tighter spec'ed....

As such, for most people, you can sight it in at 200 and use it for everything between 0 and basically 500 yards, without any holdovers and still be on target. 

You are NOT going to be able to do that with a .308.

The value with 308 is that it will absolutely make you a better shooter, especially if you progress to longer distances as you are going to have to wring out everything you can out of it to really compete.

Again though, if you are shooting at 500 yards or less, this really doesn't matter. lol.

Looking at my range card for the 6.5 PRC Hawkeye we were shooting to 1,400 yards... at 700 yards, the drop was only 3.5 Mils.  This is about half of a typical 308 168grain load.

Furthermore, with ballisticly better bullets, you are far less impacted by wind... and out to 500 yards, with a 6.5 CM, PRC, etc you can get away with not even accounting for wind and will be fine.

The wind adjustment for that same 6.5 PRC... at 500 yards, an 8mph wind, full impact coming 90 degrees only shifts it .5 mils.  at 700 yards .7.  Once again, about a 50% less wind impact than a 308 168 grain hpbt.

So will a 308 make you a better shooter if you start learning on it?  Yes, absolutely....

But has it been surpassed?  ABSOLUTELY! 

 

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Btw... keep in mind though, the one place where 308 does have 6.5 CM beat.... barrel life.

You are pushing same amount of powder through a smaller opening, more throat erosion.  

While 6.5 CM is not as bad as some other wild cats... it is not a .308  If you shoot a lot, be prepared  to replace barrel. 

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6 minutes ago, Shane45 said:

Ray, I would agree that the consumer should be cautious about marketing. This is prudent. I am NOT a fan of boutique calibers. With that being said, the advantages of the 6.5, for example, are extremely well established. It has moved far far far beyond a boutique caliber to full adoption. Do you think SOCOM would have adopted 6.5cm if there wasn't significant advantage to it? When I did a precision rifle Demo with Cadex Defence for the Egyption military, they were interested in going 6.5 as well. It is the direction of the short action caliber for precision rifle. If it was 10 years ago, even though I was already running these calibers since about 04, I would have still recommended the 308 for many of the reasons you stated. But not now. There is simply no point in it other than you want a 308. I love 5.56. I love 308 and still have quite a few in gas guns as the platform is mature. .45 is home for me and still relevant especially with the rise of capacity restricted states. 10mm was introduced in 1983 so Im not sure where your going with that one. 300Blk has got a lot of momentum but Id still consider it a bit boutique and Im not sure I truly see the utility of it. 

Wasn't the 300 BLK and the 6.8 SPC gonna be our new go-to calibers?   And what happened to them?  I understand the ballistics behind the argument, and you are right that it will do more than a 308.  But I still think passing on a 308 because at 1000 yards this will be better is silly.  

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8 minutes ago, Ray Ray said:

Wasn't the 300 BLK and the 6.8 SPC gonna be our new go-to calibers?   And what happened to them?  I understand the ballistics behind the argument, and you are right that it will do more than a 308.  But I still think passing on a 308 because at 1000 yards this will be better is silly.  

Let me restate your supposition.

No you should not pass up on a trim hammer just because a framing hammer will be better for...the framing you need the hammer for.

Picking the inferior tool is silly Ray

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8 minutes ago, Shane45 said:

Let me restate your supposition.

No you should not pass up on a trim hammer just because a framing hammer will be better for...the framing you need the hammer for.

Picking the inferior tool is silly Ray

Apples and oranges Shane, you should know better.  In 5 years, when the 7.25 Williams is all the rage because at 1000 yards it gives you a hand job and you're gonna say "the 6.5 is obsolete".  Meanwhile, the 308 will still be ringing steel and defending whomever.

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@Shane45

Ray ray does have a point though...

There are always new cartridges that have been the craze... 6.8, 300, etc...  Commercially though, they have not been succesfull however, or at least not lived up to marketing hype that youtubers and media made them out.

And let's be honest... benchrest guys have already moved onto 6mm CM vs 6.5.  It takes the best of 6.5m and pushes even more velocity, etc.

So 308... is a better round... commercially.... BUT ballistically, it is easily surpassed... as it has been a number of times. 

6.5 CM though has been widely adopted... will have to see if it has sticking power.

Of course, none of this is a surprise to any benchrest guys and gals as they have seen it all... and none of it matters to them because they roll their own. 

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14 minutes ago, Shane45 said:

Ray, I really hate it when you devolve the discussion because of your determination to push a bad position. Ringing steel where, at the 308 only matches because no one runs a 308 competitively anymore?

No I don't, I just don't jump on the latest and greatest product.  You have Cadillac dreams and Bentley pockets so you can swing on all the new hotness stuff.  I, on the other hand, have Cadillac dreams and Pontiac pockets so I stick with what has worked.  

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7 minutes ago, Ray Ray said:

No I don't, I just don't jump on the latest and greatest product.  You have Cadillac dreams and Bentley pockets so you can swing on all the new hotness stuff.  I, on the other hand, have Cadillac dreams and Pontiac pockets so I stick with what has worked.  

I think that is a poor stamement. 

For some it is about quantity, others save a lot and spend it on a few. And let’s be honest most shooters spend a lot more on Ammo then on the guns. 

And you can get 6.5cm in $400 bolt guns. 

Will of course have to see if it sticks around in 5 to 10 years but out of all the new fandangled intros... 6.5CM does seem to have sticking power. 

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42 minutes ago, Ray Ray said:

No I don't, I just don't jump on the latest and greatest product.  You have Cadillac dreams and Bentley pockets so you can swing on all the new hotness stuff.  I, on the other hand, have Cadillac dreams and Pontiac pockets so I stick with what has worked.  

Ray, there are ALL kinds of articles out there of people getting into PRS for very little money on all the new, decent, budget minded rifles out in 6.5.  And I hate to break it to you but the rifle price between 308 and 6.5 is negligible if existent at all. Just about every line thats available in 308 is available in 6.5. So your argument makes no sense at all. And if you really understood, you would know what you think is new, isnt. It has just finally made mainstream adoption. 260 Remington has been around since the 90's. What made the 6.5CM so popular was the availability of match grade ammo at the price point of FGMM. Simple as that. 260 has a slight advantage but it never gained popularity. Why? $67 a box for match ammo! Even today its still pricey.  (edited to clarify the point that 260 and 6.5CM are nearly identical ballistically and fire the same projo)

 

Here is the bottom line though. Its a short action. So I really dont care what stays and goes. Its only a barrel swap. So if a new hotness emerges, when this barrel is done, I'll switch over on the next barrel. Its just a barrel. 

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8 minutes ago, Scorpio64 said:

Ferrari kit car.  As much as I love Ruger, a 6.5CM Predator will not do the same thing a RPR or 700 will do.  The high performance components just aren't there.

 

I think he was just pointing out that it doesnt cost a fortune to get into the 6.5cm game as RayRay was implying. You can get cheap 6.5cm guns just like you can get cheap 308 guns. The price of guns is about the same, and the price of the ammo is just about the same as well. 

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30 minutes ago, Scorpio64 said:

Ferrari kit car.  As much as I love Ruger, a 6.5CM Predator will not do the same thing a RPR or 700 will do.  The high performance components just aren't there.

 

 

19 minutes ago, shooter28 said:

I think he was just pointing out that it doesnt cost a fortune to get into the 6.5cm game as RayRay was implying. You can get cheap 6.5cm guns just like you can get cheap 308 guns. The price of guns is about the same, and the price of the ammo is just about the same as well. 

Precisely.

That is all I meant to imply.  You do not need to pay $2,000 to get a gun chambered in 6.5 CM, 6.5 PRC, 6mm CM, etc.

There are options from $400 to the sky is the limit.

But let's be honest... if you want a 1 MOA gun that shoots out past 1,000 yards and hits... bone stock... just get a 6.5 CM Ruger American.

Won't be the nicest fit and finish... but the important parts work just fine.

 

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49 minutes ago, Maksim said:

 

Precisely.

That is all I meant to imply.  You do not need to pay $2,000 to get a gun chambered in 6.5 CM, 6.5 PRC, 6mm CM, etc.

There are options from $400 to the sky is the limit.

But let's be honest... if you want a 1 MOA gun that shoots out past 1,000 yards and hits... bone stock... just get a 6.5 CM Ruger American.

Won't be the nicest fit and finish... but the important parts work just fine.

 

Ummm are you getting money from ruger or sumtin? Pushing them pretty hard.

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2 hours ago, Zeke said:

Ummm are you getting money from ruger or sumtin? Pushing them pretty hard.

Nope, not at all.  I did go to one of their events, but not getting paid.

I just think they produce a great value in this space.  Handguns? Eh. 

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9 hours ago, Zeke said:

:facepalm: a caliber war devolution.

@Bully and @Shane45 are my spirit animal @Ray Ray

 

9 hours ago, High Exposure said:

Forget what I said about .308 Zeke.

I defer to @Shane45 and @Bully

If they say there is no value in learning in .308, then follow their advice. They are the SME on this stuff.

I guess that’s like me telling people to not worry about mastering Iron Sights before going to a RDS.... it may slay a sacred cow, but the BBQ is going to be amazing!

Guys, I shoot a .223 in precision rifle matches at 600 yards.  Don't look to me for any real advice.  I'm obviously way behind the curve.

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16 hours ago, Bully said:

 

Guys, I shoot a .223 in precision rifle matches at 600 yards.  Don't look to me for any real advice.  I'm obviously way behind the curve.

I still choose you over @Ray Ray‘ s ballistics bafoonery!:rofl:

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