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"Loaded magazine is a felony" (not this **** again)

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1 hour ago, kman said:

The police are many times THE WORST source of legal advice on gun laws.  What they say is legal or not doesn't mean anything!

Fundamentally, no one has an answer, which is why these discussion threads go out of control EVERY TIME.

Patrolman, yes I'd agree that they are not a good source of legal advice. However did you even take a look at who that email was written by? Not some rookie patrolman! 

Fundamentally the fcuking answer is right in front of you, just read the God damn email!  The reason threads like this go out of control is because of fear mongers like you. If you want to play it extra super safe fine no one cares but the answer is right there for you to read 

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2 hours ago, kman said:

The police are many times THE WORST source of legal advice on gun laws.  What they say is legal or not doesn't mean anything!

Fundamentally, no one has an answer, which is why these discussion threads go out of control EVERY TIME.

I don't understand your entire position anymore. You asked a question, one that has been asked on these forums many times, and you were given the best answer anyone could possibly provide without being speculative. But it seems that you aren't really looking for an answer because if you won't accept the written guidance from the state firearms unit who exactly will you accept guidance from. 

If the purpose of your post is to point out that me and people like me that load their magazines and transport them are in grave danger of prosecution and you are trying to protect me from that prosecution I say thanks, but no thanks. You see everything you postulate regarding the laws and how law enforcement will interpret them is based on nothing, just paranoia, although I guess paranoia is something. For me my behavior when it comes to adhering to the laws regarding firearms in general comes from knowledge and actual face to face communications with the very law enforcement people that are the subject of your paranoia. I have had the opportunity to sit with these folks many times as a condition of my license, and also along with them in working groups to try to help clarify the policies and laws in this state. And contrary to your speculative unwarranted judgment of these people, they are actually very knowledgeable, helpful, supportive and in some cases good private customers of mine. 

Since there really doesn't seem to be any purpose to your post other than to vent your unwarranted bitch slapping of law enforcement I say just transport your magazines unloaded and let's drop this post altogether. You do what you need to do to feel comfortable, I will continue to do what I do as everyone on these forums should do.

By the way, you do know that police need probable cause to search your vehicle and if you are stopped for a routine traffic violation you are not required to disclose that you are lawfully carrying firearms. That being said if you have given a police officer probable cause that will stand up in court for searching your vehicle you probably shouldn't have been carrying the firearms at that time in the first place. That is strictly my opinion, I don't have another written document to back that up. I could ask my contacts at the state police what constitutes probable cause to search your vehicle but even if they put that in writing for me you probably wouldn't believe it either so why waste my time.

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46 minutes ago, fishnut said:

Patrolman, yes I'd agree that they are not a good source of legal advice. However did you even take a look at who that email was written by? Not some rookie patrolman! 

Fundamentally the fcuking answer is right in front of you, just read the God damn email!  The reason threads like this go out of control is because of fear mongers like you. If you want to play it extra super safe fine no one cares but the answer is right there for you to read 

Brett is a 3%-er and a speaker at 2A Events such as NJSAFECON.  We've had SEVERAL lengthy conversations about NJ gun laws.  He & I agree on a lot of the minutia, interpretations, use of punctuation ("...OR LOCKED IN THE TRUNK OF AN AUTOMOBILE"), etc., etc.  My well-published scenario of transporting a hand gun (wrapped in butcher's paper & tied w/ string---a "securely tied package") next to you on your front seat to a EXEMPT LOCATION (range, ffl, gunsmith) is deemed completely legal!

I say this every time this "loaded mag" question comes up:  NJ gun owners, in general, are ignorant and don't wanna invest the time to study the EXEMPTIONS & EXCEPTIONS, and instead, go on a laughable exploration of the statutes themselves LOOKING FOR PERMISSION TO DO SOMETHING COMPLETELY LEGAL.  They might as well be looking for PERMISSION TO BREATHE AIR! 

All of your answers are to be found in the EXCEPTIONS & EXEMPTIONS, as all firearms in NJ are inherently ILLEGAL, and only exist in the hands of us serfs through the use of said EXEMPTIONS & EXCEPTIONS!

Does the state of NJ give you permission to WIPE after going to the restroom?  Seems there's quite a few here still looking for THAT one too...

And kudos to @nuclearheli above.

Just sayin'.....

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13 minutes ago, Smokin .50 said:

Brett is a 3%-er and a speaker at 2A Events such as NJSAFECON.  We've had SEVERAL lengthy conversations about NJ gun laws.  He & I agree on a lot of the minutia, interpretations, use of punctuation ("...OR LOCKED IN THE TRUNK OF AN AUTOMOBILE"), etc., etc.  My well-published scenario of transporting a hand gun (wrapped in butcher's paper & tied w/ string---a "securely tied package") next to you on your front seat to a EXEMPT LOCATION (range, ffl, gunsmith) is deemed completely legal!

I say this every time this "loaded mag" question comes up:  NJ gun owners, in general, are ignorant and don't wanna invest the time to study the EXEMPTIONS & EXCEPTIONS, and instead, go on a laughable exploration of the statutes themselves LOOKING FOR PERMISSION TO DO SOMETHING COMPLETELY LEGAL.  They might as well be looking for PERMISSION TO BREATHE AIR! 

All of your answers are to be found in the EXCEPTIONS & EXEMPTIONS, as all firearms in NJ are inherently ILLEGAL, and only exist in the hands of us serfs through the use of said EXEMPTIONS & EXCEPTIONS!

Does the state of NJ give you permission to WIPE after going to the restroom?  Seems there's quite a few here still looking for THAT one too...

And kudos to @nuclearheli above. 

Just sayin'..... 

In the United States everything is Legal unless its specifically written to be illegal.
While NJ does not resemble most of the United States, It is in fact a part of the United States.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Sniper said:

Huh?

Is that English?

People already have their opinions regardless if they are right or wrong... Just fill in Legal or Illegal between 100% and To, That should satisfy everyone.

About 6 months from now this will be another new topic.

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22 minutes ago, remixer said:

People already have their opinions regardless if they are right or wrong... Just fill in Legal or Illegal between 100% and To, That should satisfy everyone.

About 6 months from now this will be another new topic.

No, 6 months from now this very topic will be up here again. 

I swear some of these threads are straight off the Twilight Zone. And the people who give the same answers over and over again should start getting residual checks. 

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On 4/18/2019 at 12:23 PM, Underdog said:

This I don't disagree with to some extent.  However, he probably didn't put it in that DA's head that the magazine was considered a loaded gun.   And, are those reasonable LEOs that unsophisticated that that that they would act unjustly upon that legal scholar and capitalist filling their heads with sugarplum fairies? 

An LEO does not have to be unsophisticated to believe what a lawyer said. How many laws do LEOs need to remember? How many of these laws can they remember word for word? LEOs hear that loaded magazines MAY be illegal, many of them probably don't even know where they originally heard it from.

So if you are an LEO, and you pull somebody over and notice they have a loaded magazine in their car, and in the back of your mind you remember that "loaded magazines MAY be illegal", what would you do? Would you ignore it, or would you arrest that person and let the DA decide what to do?

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1 minute ago, MartyZ said:

An LEO does not have to be unsophisticated to believe what a lawyer said. How many laws do LEOs need to remember? How many of these laws can they remember word for word? LEOs hear that loaded magazines MAY be illegal, many of them probably don't even know where they originally heard it from.

So if you are an LEO, and you pull somebody over and notice they have a loaded magazine in their car, and in the back of your mind you remember that "loaded magazines MAY be illegal", what would you do? Would you ignore it, or would you arrest that person and let the DA decide what to do?

Im assuming during an arrest they would need to state the reason and Criminal Code for the reason they are arresting you.

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7 minutes ago, MartyZ said:

An LEO does not have to be unsophisticated to believe what a lawyer said. How many laws do LEOs need to remember? How many of these laws can they remember word for word? LEOs hear that loaded magazines MAY be illegal, many of them probably don't even know where they originally heard it from.

So if you are an LEO, and you pull somebody over and notice they have a loaded magazine in their car, and in the back of your mind you remember that "loaded magazines MAY be illegal", what would you do? Would you ignore it, or would you arrest that person and let the DA decide what to do?

How about I use my 2-way radio to call my Sergeant, so we can chat on our cell phones, and together look-up the actual statute in the little book of laws NJ prints each year & distributes to the Cops.  If a LEO isn't sure about making an arrest, why is it you & your ilk always treat LEO's as if they've never heard of a radio or a phone?  The interwebs are replete with videos of LEO's calling Supervisors to respond to MV stops or any other situation where there is a need for supervisory personnel.

I just found the law where it says a loaded speedloader is a loaded mag!  It's right next to Rules for Bottom Feeder Operation :) 

Stop the fear mongering already! 

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1 hour ago, BobA said:

No, 6 months from now this very topic will be up here again. 

I swear some of these threads are straight off the Twilight Zone. And the people who give the same answers over and over again should start getting residual checks. 

Are you handling this?  Where do I send my invoice?  I mean, hell, I got real creative this time & changed the way I answered it!

Maybe I should write a book?  Oh wait...

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13 minutes ago, Smokin .50 said:

How about I use my 2-way radio to call my Sergeant, so we can chat on our cell phones, and together look-up the actual statute in the little book of laws NJ prints each year & distributes to the Cops.  If a LEO isn't sure about making an arrest, why is it you & your ilk always treat LEO's as if they've never heard of a radio or a phone?  The interwebs are replete with videos of LEO's calling Supervisors to respond to MV stops or any other situation where there is a need for supervisory personnel.

I just found the law where it says a loaded speedloader is a loaded mag!  It's right next to Rules for Bottom Feeder Operation :) 

Stop the fear mongering already! 

Did you even read ANY of my previous posts? I'm not the one fear mongering, i'm the one saying that Nappen is fear mongering and putting these stupid ideas into peoples heads!!! And that if it wasn't for Nappen, LEOs, and others, would have no reason to think that a loaded magazine MIGHT be considered a loaded firearm.

Please read before you respond!!!

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Just now, MartyZ said:

Did you even read ANY of my previous posts? I'm not the one fear mongering, i'm the one saying that Nappen is fear mongering and putting these stupid ideas into peoples heads!!! And that if it wasn't for Nappen, LEOs, and others, would have no reason to think that a loaded magazine MIGHT be considered a loaded firearm. 

Please read before you respond!!! 

Ranges are also to blame....  Maybe they heard Nappen say it and now just parrot him.

Or maybe they want you to load mags in house since you are paying per hour :)

 

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24 minutes ago, Smokin .50 said:

Are you handling this?  Where do I send my invoice?  I mean, hell, I got real creative this time & changed the way I answered it!

Maybe I should write a book?  Oh wait...

Hmm... maybe I should. I could start driving a convertible and get a long legged blond secretary. I always wanted to be an agent.

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16 minutes ago, Ray Ray said:

I load my magazines before going to the range to save time.

 

13 minutes ago, MartyZ said:

So do I, ALWAYS.

The only time my mags are unloaded are when I'm at the range shooting and maybe the ride home if I shot all the ammo I brought.  

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1 hour ago, MartyZ said:

Did you even read ANY of my previous posts? I'm not the one fear mongering, i'm the one saying that Nappen is fear mongering and putting these stupid ideas into peoples heads!!! And that if it wasn't for Nappen, LEOs, and others, would have no reason to think that a loaded magazine MIGHT be considered a loaded firearm.

Please read before you respond!!!

OK, I just read every post on this thread.  I apologize for not remembering your writing style.  We all fall into a trap that lets us think no one needs an explanation or "sarcasm" indicator when we type.  This was the case with your post in my view & why I responded the way I did.  On it's face, and without context, my response is correct.  With context I get where you're coming from & agree.

When I'm wrong (which isn't too often btw) I OWN it.  As I did here.

Carry-on!

~R

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Good grief, I didn't say it was illegal, I said nobody knows one way or another because "loaded" is not defined by statute. 

Some people just can't handle it if everyone doesn't completely and fully agree with what they say on the internet.  Don't get bent out of shape because you don't get 100% agreement with your opinion on the internet.

But it's OK - one cop from the State Police's Firearms Unit says it's legal in an email, so it's unquestionably so.

Suppose another cop was answering emails at the computer that day and said it's not legal.  Guess that's it, settled, no can do, illegal!

The NJ State Police website says that firearms and ammunition must be transported in different containers.  Even though there is no law requiring that which I can find, the police said it, in fact it's on their website, so quite clearly must be correct!

https://www.njsp.org/firearms/firearms-faqs.shtml

 
Quote

 

How do you transport firearms?

Firearms shall be carried unloaded and contained in a closed and fastened case, gunbox, securely tied package, or locked in the trunk of the automobile in which it is being transported.

Ammunition must be transported in a separate container and locked in the trunk of the automobile in which it is being transported. If the vehicle does not have a compartment separate from the passenger compartment, the firearm must be in a locked container other than the vehicle's glove compartment or console.

 

 

So for those of you who put loaded mags and your handgun in the same range bag, and drive happily to the range - which cop is right now?  The one cop in Trenton that said loaded mags are fine, or the cop who did the FAQ page on the NJ State Police website, that says you can't have ammunition in the same bag as a gun?

They can't both be right.

And it is irresponsible to say that it's "100% Legal" and have people rely on it, if it is not certainly so.

Are we going to have another hundred or so posts of people complaining again because I pointed all of this out?

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Has any 2A organization ever tried to contact the NJSP and have them remove or correct their website statements?  Seems like something that should at least be tried.  If asked to cite the law they are summarizing, they would not be able to do so since no such law exists.

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13 minutes ago, Kevin125 said:

Has any 2A organization ever tried to contact the NJSP and have them remove or correct their website statements?  Seems like something that should at least be tried.  If asked to cite the law they are summarizing, they would not be able to do so since no such law exists.

If asked the police will probably state that if gun and ammo is in the same container, they interpret that to mean the gun is loaded.  That will be what they say they are basing their website FAQ answer on.  A Judge might very well go along with that.

That's the law in New York BTW - actually the term loaded is defined to have an even wider scope in NY.

https://www.newyorkcriminalattorneyblog.com/new_york_gun_laws_when_your_un/

Quote

Here’s the problem. Your unloaded gun might be considered loaded under New York law. Under the Penal Law, a “Loaded firearm” is defined as any firearm actually loaded with ammunition or any firearm which is possessed by one who, at the same time, possesses ammunition for that firearm. [See PL 265.00(15) for the exact definition of “loaded firearm”]. Therefore, the term loaded firearm means not only a truly loaded firearm but also the contemporaneous possession of an unloaded firearm and ammunition for that firearm. Accordingly, under the law of New York State, an unloaded firearm may actually be considered a loaded firearm.

Unless and until "loaded" is defined in the NJ by statute, or decided by the NJ Supreme Court (or US Supreme Court) then there will forever be confusion. 

That is why I say that this whole question is unknown.  It is why Evan Nappen cautions his clients.  It is why saying it's "100% legal" is, in my humble opinion, irresponsible. 

If you say it's "100% legal" are you going to pay the poor sap's lawyer who relies on you and gets arrested and fired from his job?  

I certainly do not think a gun is loaded unless there's a round in the chamber (or if the magazine is charged and inserted and the bolt pulled back on a gun which fires from an open bolt).

But what I think it should mean doesn't matter!

Suing the NJ State Police on what they say on their website might be a great way to have the definition of "loaded" decided conclusively in the courts, however.  Perhaps a good idea!

 

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9 minutes ago, Kevin125 said:

Has any 2A organization ever tried to contact the NJSP and have them remove or correct their website statements?  Seems like something that should at least be tried.  If asked to cite the law they are summarizing, they would not be able to do so since no such law exists.

Confusion in transportation law comes from various sources.  The major problem is gun owners not grasping nuance, as in "Through NJ" (the FOPA paragraph) and "into NJ" (final destination, such as an EXEMPT location).  

Years ago, the NJSP sent Troopers to man their table at the Raritan Center Outdoor Expo held every January.  They handed-out copies of the NJ gun laws, folded accordion-style & printed on a heavier blue (index?) stock with black ink.  On the back of this document was a disclaimer that the accordion copy can't be construed as the final say on NJ gun law.

Vagueness abounds.  We each must arrive at whatever level of comfort we desire with regards to interpretation of this vagueness.  Although IANAL I know & study the law.  My comfort level has gotten me 47 years of continuous firearms handling, usage & transportation thus far.  I expect it to continue.

It's May, so BRING A KID TO THE RANGE!

~R

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And the New Hampshire Supreme Court has set a precedent in a case where an individual was prosecuted for having a loaded magazine "near" a firearm which was unloaded. The court ruled:

Webster’s defined loaded as: “containing an explosive charge.” The New Hampshire Supreme Court added that “loaded” is the past participle of the word “load,” which is obviously a verb. The definition for the word “load?” “To put a load on or in a carrier, device, machine, or container. Specifically, to insert the charge or cartridge in the chamber of a firearm.”

The justices also noted in their ruling that words and phrases are not read in isolation, but in context with the entire statutory intention. The justices refused to expand the definition of the word “loaded” to the broad nature that the prosecuting attorney and lower court wanted.

“Under the State’s reading,” the justices ruled, “a person of ordinary intelligence would have to guess at how ‘near’ a pistol or revolver must be to a loaded magazine or clip to constitute a violation of [the law]. In contrast, interpreting a ‘loaded pistol or revolver’ as a pistol or revolver containing a cartridge in any position from which it can be fired eliminates the uncertainty: a pistol or revolver either contains a cartridge in such a position or it does not.”

All that being considered here is the only truly and brutally honest post in this thread, and my last one for sure. NOBODY cares how Kman transports his magazines, with or without ammunition. This is at least 30 minutes of my life today that I will never get back.

You see why I have not been around much PK90. What a waste of time.

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22 minutes ago, kman said:

If asked the police will probably state that if gun and ammo is in the same container, they interpret that to mean the gun is loaded.  That will be what they say they are basing their website FAQ answer on.  A Judge might very well go along with that.

That's the law in New York BTW - actually the term loaded is defined to have an even wider scope in NY.

https://www.newyorkcriminalattorneyblog.com/new_york_gun_laws_when_your_un/

Unless and until "loaded" is defined in the NJ by statute, or decided by the NJ Supreme Court (or US Supreme Court) then there will forever be confusion. 

That is why I say that this whole question is unknown.  It is why Evan Nappen cautions his clients.  It is why saying it's "100% legal" is, in my humble opinion, irresponsible. 

If you say it's "100% legal" are you going to pay the poor sap's lawyer who relies on you and gets arrested and fired from his job?  

I certainly do not think a gun is loaded unless there's a round in the chamber (or if the magazine is charged and inserted and the bolt pulled back on a gun which fires from an open bolt).

But what I think it should mean doesn't matter!

Suing the NJ State Police on what they say on their website might be a great way to have the definition of "loaded" decided conclusively in the courts, however.  Perhaps a good idea!

 

It would be entertaining to watch some lawyer who argues that ammunition in possesion means loaded try to define “unloaded”.

 

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