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3 minutes ago, Krdshrk said:

I still wouldn't wanna be hit by those...

 

Exactly. I'm still checking for any tests on ballistics gel. My hypothesis is that at around 3000 fps that wound is going to be very effective in neutralizing a threat. 

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On 4/24/2019 at 3:19 PM, ChrisJM981 said:

Exactly. I'm still checking for any tests on ballistics gel. My hypothesis is that at around 3000 fps that wound is going to be very effective in neutralizing a threat. 

Does this help?

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The negative posts in this thread are a good example of how people in NJ are "different" from people in other states.  Something about NJ seems to make people negative about everything, including being negative to people trying to provide alternative solutions to the gun law problem in NJ.  The same is true for any 2A issues, the negativity stifles everything.

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On 4/27/2019 at 9:01 AM, JC_68Westy said:

The negative posts in this thread are a good example of how people in NJ are "different" from people in other states.  Something about NJ seems to make people negative about everything, including being negative to people trying to provide alternative solutions to the gun law problem in NJ.  The same is true for any 2A issues, the negativity stifles everything.

people always find something to bitch about. Free speech and all, which they are completely entitled to. Just know they kill their own morale and perpetuate a doom and gloom which isnt really helpful.

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On 4/27/2019 at 9:01 AM, JC_68Westy said:

The negative posts in this thread are a good example of how people in NJ are "different" from people in other states.  Something about NJ seems to make people negative about everything, including being negative to people trying to provide alternative solutions to the gun law problem in NJ.  The same is true for any 2A issues, the negativity stifles everything.

I have mixed opinions on it...

Moving to a state where I can build an AR pistol/get an SBR (closing on the house in about two weeks), I’m glad that a company is thinking outside the box for people behind enemy lines. Same like the TAC-14/13, it is one of the only ways to have some freedom in NJ. But then, you have to worry about a short barrel, and someone saying it has a stock... while it might be legal, how knowledgeable will people be with it? I could see people getting jammed up with it. I still have people arguing to me that a TAC-14 is illegal (in NJ, but also Federally) with a folding brace, even though the Black Aces DT has a similar setup/shorter package... and is on the same NJSP letter as the Remington and Mossberg.

To add to that, I think it has been beaten to death on how some people in the firearms community want fear out there... and definitely doesn’t mean NJ is an exception. Personally, I’m shocked any company would try to market stuff like that in NJ, due to the flack they are bound to get (just the legality BS).

That being said, I’d be interested in it when the ammo is out/tested. Being able to toss in regular 5.56mm is nice, and across a home, it is going to do what you need it. Fifty yards... you are looking at sub-2” groups. But seeing a different outlook on rifling does open some options. Shooting a heavier load? Tweak the angles on the bullet to adjust twist rate. Go from 55 grain up to 77 grain, and not have to worry about twist rate. Not saying it is the solution to any ammo problem, but it is a unique route to go down... and I do see some potential.

My “pistol” purchase is definitely a PTR 9CT... but I could see an AR pistol in my future. Maybe a SBR, but likely would be with the PTR first. Depending on where the ammo for this goes, I might be talked into one. If not, might just do .300 Blackout and invest in a .30 suppressor (already on the list).

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this thread has long since passed its prime time.. with that said I had to laugh a bit at some of this.. 

FA - "the gun is designed for home defense"
some people "but it sucks at 50 yards"

where the hell do you guys live? in like an abandoned car factory? a football stadium? a HD gun.. a gun that is exclusively home defense.. that thing is likely never going to see 50 yards.. and would certainly never see 100.. if that gun sees 100 yards.. you are going to see prison.. because in NJ its going to be really tough to justify a 50 yard shoot.. my go to HD gun has always been an AR.. in NJ it was a 14in AR pinned to 16.. now its a 7.5in AR SBR.. 

if I still lived in NJ.. I would likely own it.. I don't like the performance at range.. but in a home... its really hard to beat the ergonomics of a small AR platform gun.. and this gun.. even with being completely whacky.. would likely have no problem getting it done in the confines of your home.. 

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Oh for petes sake.....just get a handgun and practice with it for HD if your that concerned with over penetration....

Big fat slow and heavy 45acp

I applaud the company for looking down this path....

What are accuracy tests at 10 yds....  30ft.?

Any other calibers than 5.56

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6 hours ago, USRifle30Cal said:

Oh for petes sake.....just get a handgun and practice with it for HD if your that concerned with over penetration....

Big fat slow and heavy 45acp

I applaud the company for looking down this path....

What are accuracy tests at 10 yds....  30ft.?

Any other calibers than 5.56

IMO the ability for a round to do damage after passing through an interior wall is more a byproduct of mass than velocity.. 

45 is probably the opposite of what you want.. 

.223 is a small light right traveling at high velocity... once the round contacts something it lacks the necessary mass to continue to do substantial damage to additional targets... 

additionally a handgun is not even remotely equal to a SBR for defense.. stability of a carbine.. ability to run a sling.. blah blah blah.. a carbine is superior in every way.. the only issue is .223 inside a structure is going to be LOUD and bright.. 

WoundProfilesAfterWallBarrier.jpg

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16 hours ago, vladtepes said:

IMO the ability for a round to do damage after passing through an interior wall is more a byproduct of mass than velocity.. 

45 is probably the opposite of what you want.. 

.223 is a small light right traveling at high velocity... once the round contacts something it lacks the necessary mass to continue to do substantial damage to additional targets... 

additionally a handgun is not even remotely equal to a SBR for defense.. stability of a carbine.. ability to run a sling.. blah blah blah.. a carbine is superior in every way.. the only issue is .223 inside a structure is going to be LOUD and bright.. 

WoundProfilesAfterWallBarrier.jpg

I don't live in a city.....my nearest neighbor is over 300ft away separated by trees.....i would not consider a rifle indoors in my scenario for HD...

In *my* scenario....my home layout...  i would trust my handguns and shotguns to get the job done.

My handgun is plenty stable at 25 yds  for center mass hits and at ranges that would need to fired in my home its going to be plenty accurate.

The fantasy of room clearing, house clearing is just that ...fantasy....  to each his own and i am not passing judgement, but sometimes i do get a laugh out of what some think they will do or need.

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i talk to Brandon from Franklin Armory pretty often, do you want a short barreled gun? Do you not want to move from a communist state to have one? this is your work around :)

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2 hours ago, USRifle30Cal said:

I don't live in a city.....my nearest neighbor is over 300ft away separated by trees.....i would not consider a rifle indoors in my scenario for HD...

In *my* scenario....my home layout...  i would trust my handguns and shotguns to get the job done.

My handgun is plenty stable at 25 yds  for center mass hits and at ranges that would need to fired in my home its going to be plenty accurate.

The fantasy of room clearing, house clearing is just that ...fantasy....  to each his own and i am not passing judgement, but sometimes i do get a laugh out of what some think they will do or need.

Do you live alone? 

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38 minutes ago, fishnut said:

Do you live alone? 

Nope....next question....

 

Sorry that my 12g boom stick and 1911 dont meet the high speed low drag fantasies....

 

1 minute ago, Sniper said:

Why does that matter?

Cause the mall ninja entered the room....

 

;)

 

 

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3 hours ago, USRifle30Cal said:

I don't live in a city.....my nearest neighbor is over 300ft away separated by trees.....i would not consider a rifle indoors in my scenario for HD...

In *my* scenario....my home layout...  i would trust my handguns and shotguns to get the job done.

My handgun is plenty stable at 25 yds  for center mass hits and at ranges that would need to fired in my home its going to be plenty accurate.

The fantasy of room clearing, house clearing is just that ...fantasy....  to each his own and i am not passing judgement, but sometimes i do get a laugh out of what some think they will do or need.

Yep..

I can't see how a rifle would be better than a handgun for ease of use inside, unless someone lived in a  30,000 sq. ft. house, where each room was 60 feet across and you had large open areas. In most houses, you'd be moving around, turning corners, in and out of doorways, etc., and trying to swing a rifle barrel around all these obstacles while attempting to target a bad guy, can be a challenge.

In *my* scenario, my home layout, a handgun is a better choice, for a few reasons. I know my layout and furniture placement, where the bad guy doesn't. So, I know where I can get cover if needed or be strategic on how I move around. It's a lot easier to handle a handgun in a fluid, high stress, active situation like that. And, if I get jumped, caught off guard, pushed or knocked down by the bad guy, I can fire from a low ready position, on my back, or any place in between. I won't need to be over the sights to get rounds off in defense. Which is why I run a laser instead of a weapon light...

 

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On ‎4‎/‎24‎/‎2019 at 6:50 PM, The_Matrix said:

Its very simply.

If you want one - buy it

If you don't want one - don't buy it.

No need for 2 pages of non-sense.

I do want one.

this. 

 

 I want one, but not at the current price point. 

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1 hour ago, Sniper said:

Why does that matter?

 

1 hour ago, Zeke said:

Explaining over penetration, f=ma , other occupants, etc is a fools folly.

This.

My personal choice for an HD gun is one that has the least risk of being deadly after passing through an interior wall while still being effective to stop a threat. My choice is an 14.5 AR with .223 soft points. 

When I lived alone my choice was 12g and .45acp. 

1 hour ago, USRifle30Cal said:

 

Cause the mall ninja entered the room....

 

;)

 

So your calling me a mall ninja for asking a simple question? That makes you a keyboard comando...... 

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1 hour ago, Sniper said:

Yep..

I can't see how a rifle would be better than a handgun for ease of use inside, unless someone lived in a  30,000 sq. ft. house, where each room was 60 feet across and you had large open areas. In most houses, you'd be moving around, turning corners, in and out of doorways, etc., and trying to swing a rifle barrel around all these obstacles while attempting to target a bad guy, can be a challenge.

In *my* scenario, my home layout, a handgun is a better choice, for a few reasons. I know my layout and furniture placement, where the bad guy doesn't. So, I know where I can get cover if needed or be strategic on how I move around. It's a lot easier to handle a handgun in a fluid, high stress, active situation like that. And, if I get jumped, caught off guard, pushed or knocked down by the bad guy, I can fire from a low ready position, on my back, or any place in between. I won't need to be over the sights to get rounds off in defense. Which is why I run a laser instead of a weapon light...

 

the rifle I am trying to "swing around" has a 7in barrel.. I am not sure how much experience you have with a SBR.. but you are describing it like I am trying to maneuver around with a LMG or something.. and using a laser "instead of" a WML.. that is a really weird choice.. 

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5 hours ago, USRifle30Cal said:

I don't live in a city.....my nearest neighbor is over 300ft away separated by trees.....i would not consider a rifle indoors in my scenario for HD...

In *my* scenario....my home layout...  i would trust my handguns and shotguns to get the job done.

My handgun is plenty stable at 25 yds  for center mass hits and at ranges that would need to fired in my home its going to be plenty accurate.

The fantasy of room clearing, house clearing is just that ...fantasy....  to each his own and i am not passing judgement, but sometimes i do get a laugh out of what some think they will do or need.

I am not sure what you mean by "fantasy of room clearing"... if someone broke into my home.. if there was some loud noise in the night.. I would grab my gun.. and investigate.. I am not putting on body armor.. NVG.. etc.. it feels like your attempt to mock.. but I am not really sure.. 

I simply stated why I choose a carbine... I don't care if you use a bolt action 22.. a 357 revolver.. it literally makes no difference to me.. if you want to blow holes through the side of your home with slugs in a 12 gauge no worries.. have at it.. 

my carbine has an optic.. has more rounds than my handgun... is on a sling so lets me easily use both hands if I need to without worrying about holstering unholstering.. is less likely to kill the neighbor if a round goes through the wall (I live in a townhouse).. I am personally WAY more accurate and comfortable with a carbine... 

lastly the reason I posted the over penetration bit was simply to address your recommendation that a 45 is good when over penetration is a concern.. as I do not think that is a good recommendation.. 

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7 hours ago, vladtepes said:

the rifle I am trying to "swing around" has a 7in barrel.. I am not sure how much experience you have with a SBR..

No experience... I live in a communist state, we have to swing 16" barrels... that's a big difference.

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9 hours ago, Zeke said:

Explaining over penetration, f=ma , other occupants, etc is a fools folly.

Dont try to lecture me on ballistics cutie pie....

8 hours ago, fishnut said:

 

This.

My personal choice for an HD gun is one that has the least risk of being deadly after passing through an interior wall while still being effective to stop a threat. My choice is an 14.5 AR with .223 soft points. 

When I lived alone my choice was 12g and .45acp. 

So your calling me a mall ninja for asking a simple question? That makes you a keyboard comando...... 

My inference is that you were implying that of I did not live alone, i wasnt paying attentoon to whats beyond my target and might kill a loved one.

My setup is whereby my loved ones are on an elevated level with myself and wife - IF there is an engagement, at night to take place we are all in an elevated position firing down one set of grand stairs....a very nice choke point....

 

Know ur target, know your ground...if you dont know your own home, well that an issue you need to get over and over penetration is low in your list....sorry

 

 

7 hours ago, vladtepes said:

I am not sure what you mean by "fantasy of room clearing"... if someone broke into my home.. if there was some loud noise in the night.. I would grab my gun.. and investigate.. I am not putting on body armor.. NVG.. etc.. it feels like your attempt to mock.. but I am not really sure.. 

I simply stated why I choose a carbine... I don't care if you use a bolt action 22.. a 357 revolver.. it literally makes no difference to me.. if you want to blow holes through the side of your home with slugs in a 12 gauge no worries.. have at it.. 

my carbine has an optic.. has more rounds than my handgun... is on a sling so lets me easily use both hands if I need to without worrying about holstering unholstering.. is less likely to kill the neighbor if a round goes through the wall (I live in a townhouse).. I am personally WAY more accurate and comfortable with a carbine... 

lastly the reason I posted the over penetration bit was simply to address your recommendation that a 45 is good when over penetration is a concern.. as I do not think that is a good recommendation.. 

I wanst being derogatory...sorry...depending on the time, the noise etc....dictates what happens...i am NOT saying that an SBR doesnt work for you or is folly, for ME i like a handgun better.

Personally i think this equipment in this thread is geared towards ninjas....but that is my .02...and what do i know !

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21 hours ago, vladtepes said:

I am not sure what you mean by "fantasy of room clearing"... if someone broke into my home.. if there was some loud noise in the night.. I would grab my gun.. and investigate.. I am not putting on body armor.. NVG.. etc.. it feels like your attempt to mock.. but I am not really sure.. 

I simply stated why I choose a carbine... I don't care if you use a bolt action 22.. a 357 revolver.. it literally makes no difference to me.. if you want to blow holes through the side of your home with slugs in a 12 gauge no worries.. have at it.. 

my carbine has an optic.. has more rounds than my handgun... is on a sling so lets me easily use both hands if I need to without worrying about holstering unholstering.. is less likely to kill the neighbor if a round goes through the wall (I live in a townhouse).. I am personally WAY more accurate and comfortable with a carbine... 

lastly the reason I posted the over penetration bit was simply to address your recommendation that a 45 is good when over penetration is a concern.. as I do not think that is a good recommendation.. 

Why not use frangible ammo then?

 

Everyone has different situations in their HD scenario and all options can and should be on the table - and there is not one clean answer for everyone - for *me* I do not see the need for a carbine - you do - AWESOME SAUCE !

If I seemed to indicate that a 45acp round will not over penetrate walls etc. of common house construction then that is not what I was trying to imply.   In my opinion and unless information that I looked at over the years 45acp HP's do not tend to over penetrate with human tissue.

The issue i kinda have with a carbine if it is not setup properly and the user is not actively training with it is the sight offset on most that you see etc.

That being said - I do think that a carbine type rifle in a pistol caliber makes some sense...for a user that is not overly proficient with a handgun.

 

*BUT* all the stuff being said if someone wants one - go for it !!!  :)

I would like to see one in 45acp but as others have said the price point it kinda up there for what it is.

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