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Ray Ray

Dangerous range policies?

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5 minutes ago, sota said:

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

Applies just as much to the renter as the rentee.

 

15 minutes ago, Bklynracer said:

Wouldn't that also mean then that the range would be a moron to rent it or allow it?

I agree but this is why I don’t seem many ranges renting a 50 Bmg.

50 ae or 500 sw I don’t care about. 

The question was about buying though.  This is where I meant.

range will be happy to sell it to you but does not mean you should shoot it there. 

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2 hours ago, sota said:

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

Applies just as much to the renter as the rentee.

So only experienced shooters should be allowed to shoot more powerful firearms and a beginner restricted to light recoil ones? Hmmmm. Let me rethink this.

ETA: So does this also go for purchases?

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9 hours ago, PK90 said:

So only experienced shooters should be allowed to shoot more powerful firearms and a beginner restricted to light recoil ones? Hmmmm. Let me rethink this.

ETA: So does this also go for purchases?

I think there is a difference though.   

Should any gun owner be able to buy anything they want? ABSOLUTELY!

As a private range owner, do I want people to shoot any gun they want indoors, in public with others around?  Especially if they are new?  HELL NO!

Much like letting a 16 year old buy a Dodge Hellcat for their first car... they should be able to but it is irresponsible.

Gun ranges that let brand new people rent guns that folks should not be shooting indoors (high powered rifles, etc) or obviously out of their comfort zone (44 mag revolvers, 50 AE/500 s&w) is both silly and irresponsible.

Plus... I am fairly certain it turns off many experienced gun owners... Do I enjoy going to public indoor ranges where a gun owner thinks it is really fun to rapid fire their at a target 5 yards away to impress their friends/gf/wife? No... no I don't.

At the same time, when you are trying to teach someone new and someone is shooting a 12 gauge in a port next to you?

The one solution and I applaud the newer ranges for doing it is having multiple areas or ranges.... one for handguns, another for rifles, and others for just machine gun rentals.

 

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5 hours ago, GRIZ said:

When I take a new shooter to the range the first time they shoot anything more than a 22 I have them do the "Barney Fife Drill".  Load one round and fire.  See how they control the firearm and handle the recoil.

Exactly what I do, I even did it for myself when I started.

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On 5/16/2019 at 1:29 PM, JackDaWack said:

If I can walk into the same store and buy a 50cal why shouldn't I be able to rent one? 

Should we restrict what guns a newbie should own?

Why stop at Newbie?

You can own cars & trucks w/o a driver's license.

You can own cars & trucks being legally blind, sitting in a nursing home.  Even a 230mph Bugati...

So tell me why you need to be young, virile or sighted to own gunz?

Owning doesn't mean squeezin' the trigger.  Some people own gunz just to wipe them with oily rags & put them back on display :) 

Renting hand cannons to Newbies & not instructing them is simply bad bidness.

~R

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7 hours ago, GRIZ said:

When I take a new shooter to the range the first time they shoot anything more than a 22 I have them do the "Barney Fife Drill".  Load one round and fire.  See how they control the firearm and handle the recoil.

This works even for experienced (always 2-handed) shooters when doing strong-hand only & especially weak-hand only drills with lightweight "snappy" recoiling polymer framed gunz in addition to the traditional "hand cannons".  Start with one and adjust grip as necessary :) 

Here's a 5 year old video with my 1979-manufactured (I bought the gun in late '79, two years outta HS) S&W Model 29 w/ 8 3/8" tube.  240 grain full-house mags.  Outta the Uncle Mike's holster with 3 rounds slip-cocked strong hand only.  Once the RSO's see ya do this, they just hand the .500 to you with a nod & a wink :) 

https://www.facebook.com/sandra.muldoon/videos/10203167646365540/

 

 

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1 hour ago, Smokin .50 said:

Why stop at Newbie?

You can own cars & trucks w/o a driver's license.

You can own cars & trucks being legally blind, sitting in a nursing home.  Even a 230mph Bugati...

So tell me why you need to be young, virile or sighted to own gunz?

Owning doesn't mean squeezin' the trigger.  Some people own gunz just to wipe them with oily rags & put them back on display :) 

Renting hand cannons to Newbies & not instructing them is simply bad bidness.

~R

So how do I rent a hand cannon? Do I have to visit the range a who bunch of times? Will an RO have to qualify me? 

Should we check newbies at the door and the guns they brought with them?

 

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16 minutes ago, JackDaWack said:

So how do I rent a hand cannon? Do I have to visit the range a who bunch of times? Will an RO have to qualify me? 

Should we check newbies at the door and the guns they brought with them?

 

Rhetorical question?

Answer is it depends on what the range wants.  I know a few ranges I visited, if you have never shot there and are renting, they send out an RO with you who "checks you out" to make sure you can safely operate it.

I would simply ask... "Have you shot this gun in this caliber before?"  If not, I would send an RO there with them.

Keep in mind.. this is someone coming in to shoot YOUR gun... You should at least want to know they are not a moron.

So there are really a few issues here....

1. Gun rights... where I don't think there should be any restrictions, if you can buy it $$$, you should be able to own it...50 bmg, hand cannons, full auto.... "destructive devices" should at least be a tax stamp.

2. Shooting it in public... "your rights end where my nose begins."  If you are shooting at a private range... you are following their rules and the insurance company's rules.  If they only allow shooting weak handed between 3pm and 5:30pm every 4th Wed on a Leap Year... that is their right. If you are on your own property, do whatever you want.

3. If I was a range owner.. I welcome new people but unless I have seen you shoot, or you can show me an IDPA/USPSA/NRA class card or something similar, you are getting an RSO to check you out... and every new shooter with a renter gets an RSO babysitting them.

I welcome new shooters to the sport but until you can safely recognize when a gun is not doing what it is supposed to, or are not iritated wondering what would possess someone to shoot a centerfire rifle indoors at 10 to 15 yards... you are inexperienced.  

Nothing wrong with that... it is just that at that stage most people are concerned about hitting the target more than they are with being safe and courteous to others.

And I will say, I am quite hypocritical as a number of years ago I was crazy with some ranges that had too many RSOs.  Right now it would be overbearing RSOs who are not  focusing on renters/brand new gun owners.

 

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@Maksim

So this would essentially require new to range shooters to A) undergo an inspection of their firearms upon entry to the range. and B) undergo a period of supervision and defacto qualification. 

 

For me, when it comes to new shooters, it's never really been a question of competency with the "size" of the firearm, but rather their competency with safety in general.

 

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I'm going to use the Track Day analogy for this:

I've done several track days, and mostly at the same track/course.  The last event I went to they stuck me in the "advanced" class because of my experience (and lack of crashing.)  When the call went out for "who wants an instructor" my hand went up.  The lead guy for the event looked at me funny and asked "why?"  Answer: because there's always something more/new to learn.

I'm going to agree with some/most of Maks's comments, except the DD one... tax stamps are a violation in my book.

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I'm all for everyone's rights, but wouldn't the range have a right to make sure that all first timers, not just newbies know what there doing for the safety of everyone there.

If it's your first time there, they have know idea if your a expert or beginner. The ranges I've been to, once they get to know you and see you know what your doing tend to watch others that they don't know. They still stop by if not busy for the occasional conversation if you stop and chat.

As far as purchase you can buy whatever you want, but as far as shooting at a range public or private your rights could be limited if you can't show you can handle whatever you have.

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15 hours ago, JackDaWack said:

So how do I rent a hand cannon? Do I have to visit the range a who bunch of times? Will an RO have to qualify me? 

Should we check newbies at the door and the guns they brought with them?

 

How to rent a hand cannon?  "It depends" is the best answer I can give you. 

A you a senior citizen cripple with arthritis or a 250 lb college football player in his prime?

Are you a "Shooter of known ability" (I.E.:  a competitive action shooter, hand gun hunter, and multi-disciplined Shootist with a Distinguished Expert NRA rating like myself) with a well-known reputation for safety and expert gun handling no matter the platform?  

Are you Joe Newbie with less than a handful of firearms?  Or are you "Mr. I don't own any guns & just rent or use my friends' gunz"?

What hoops you have to jump through to rent a hand cannon is up to each range itself.  AS IT SHOULD BE!  I would think that most ranges that rent hand cannons want to get their guns back w/o customers dropping them.  So having a RSO "check you out" is just merely a wise play to recoup their investments on .44 mags, .50 AE's & .500 S&W mags.  Even a staunch 2A advocate can wrap their head around common sense w/o lookin' for a dumb argument about the public's right to RENT when right to RENT isn't in the Constitution...

I'm almost 60 years old.  I grew-up around guns, and when I started in the hobby a brick of .22's went on sale for $3.99 plus tax.  I've NEVER rented a gun.  I've had plenty of friends & strangers offer me a ride on their guns these past 47+ years, and yes these rides have included .454's, .460's, .50 AE's & .500 S&W magnums.

Most commercial ranges make you watch a safety video before handing you the keys to Liberty to take for a ride (renting a firearm).  Having someone behind the sales counter ask if you have everything you need, I.E.:  gunz, ammo, targets, eyes & ears, etc., is just good bidness.  The conversation at the sales register as to what you've brought to shoot gun-wise is a rather simple one, especially since most commercial ranges won't rent to single, unescorted males who don't bring at least one firearm WITH THEM FROM HOME. 

A physical inventory / inspection isn't needed.  Well trained CSR's behind the counter keep things running VERY smoothly from what I've seen.  Where I draw the line is mandatory inspection of firearms by range personnel.  If I brought in a .45-70 Trap Door to sight-in with smokeless ammo, I'd be willin' to bet 85% couldn't figure-out HOW to open it up :) 

From approx. 6 years ago.  PA red-neckkin' HOOT & Hollerin' BLAST :) 

https://www.facebook.com/david.longenhageniii/videos/t.100000810732593/10152009710833980/?type=2&video_source=user_video_tab

 

~R

 

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3 hours ago, Smokin .50 said:

How to rent a hand cannon?  "It depends" is the best answer I can give you. 

A you a senior citizen cripple with arthritis or a 250 lb college football player in his prime?

Are you a "Shooter of known ability" (I.E.:  a competitive action shooter, hand gun hunter, and multi-disciplined Shootist with a Distinguished Expert NRA rating like myself) with a well-known reputation for safety and expert gun handling no matter the platform?  

Are you Joe Newbie with less than a handful of firearms?  Or are you "Mr. I don't own any guns & just rent or use my friends' gunz"?

What hoops you have to jump through to rent a hand cannon is up to each range itself.  AS IT SHOULD BE!  I would think that most ranges that rent hand cannons want to get their guns back w/o customers dropping them.  So having a RSO "check you out" is just merely a wise play to recoup their investments on .44 mags, .50 AE's & .500 S&W mags.  Even a staunch 2A advocate can wrap their head around common sense w/o lookin' for a dumb argument about the public's right to RENT when right to RENT isn't in the Constitution...

I'm almost 60 years old.  I grew-up around guns, and when I started in the hobby a brick of .22's went on sale for $3.99 plus tax.  I've NEVER rented a gun.  I've had plenty of friends & strangers offer me a ride on their guns these past 47+ years, and yes these rides have included .454's, .460's, .50 AE's & .500 S&W magnums.

Most commercial ranges make you watch a safety video before handing you the keys to Liberty to take for a ride (renting a firearm).  Having someone behind the sales counter ask if you have everything you need, I.E.:  gunz, ammo, targets, eyes & ears, etc., is just good bidness.  The conversation at the sales register as to what you've brought to shoot gun-wise is a rather simple one, especially since most commercial ranges won't rent to single, unescorted males who don't bring at least one firearm WITH THEM FROM HOME. 

A physical inventory / inspection isn't needed.  Well trained CSR's behind the counter keep things running VERY smoothly from what I've seen.  Where I draw the line is mandatory inspection of firearms by range personnel.  If I brought in a .45-70 Trap Door to sight-in with smokeless ammo, I'd be willin' to bet 85% couldn't figure-out HOW to open it up :) 

From approx. 6 years ago.  PA red-neckkin' HOOT & Hollerin' BLAST :) 

https://www.facebook.com/david.longenhageniii/videos/t.100000810732593/10152009710833980/?type=2&video_source=user_video_tab

 

~R

 

LOL, is it really a dumb argument? 

None of this answers how i would be able to rent say...a  .500 s&w without first being "checked out". and I never made this about a "rights" issue..

will they let me rent it and just keep an eye on me? 

or will they make me rent something smaller first?

I dont really own these guns, I barely ever go to ranges that do rent, so if i do rent something, it's usually something big..

I would hope that ANY range, the RO would step in if someone was doing something stupid or just plain couldnt handle the firearm owned or rented... so i have no idea what the problem is here. 

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21 minutes ago, JackDaWack said:

LOL, is it really a dumb argument?  Yes

None of this answers how i would be able to rent say...a  .500 s&w without first being "checked out". and I never made this about a "rights" issue..  I DID answer it.  Only a fool wouldn't think a minimum of supervision would be required to fire such a gun.

will they let me rent it and just keep an eye on me?  Probably!  They do with everybody else that wants to join the 50 caliber Club.

or will they make me rent something smaller first?  Maybe?  Do you have a rental history in their database?  

I dont really own these guns, I barely ever go to ranges that do rent, so if i do rent something, it's usually something big.. So all of this discourse is on a hypothetical situation that barely ever happens, right?

I would hope that ANY range, the RO would step in if someone was doing something stupid or just plain couldnt handle the firearm owned or rented... so i have no idea what the problem is here.  We agree.  I see no problem with ranges wanting to protect their customers AND their monetary investment in commercial operations.

Answers are above.

Have the rest of a pleasant weekend!

~R

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59 minutes ago, Smokin .50 said:

Answers are above.

Have the rest of a pleasant weekend!

~R

Im just curious that if Ray was so disturbed by the actions of others on the line why an RO wouldn't already be addressing the situation unless it wasn't warranted. 

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49 minutes ago, JackDaWack said:

Im just curious that if Ray was so disturbed by the actions of others on the line why an RO wouldn't already be addressing the situation unless it wasn't warranted. 

Because the RO can't hang on every port all the time.

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7 hours ago, JackDaWack said:

@Maksim

So this would essentially require new to range shooters to A) undergo an inspection of their firearms upon entry to the range. and B) undergo a period of supervision and defacto qualification. 

 

For me, when it comes to new shooters, it's never really been a question of competency with the "size" of the firearm, but rather their competency with safety in general.

 

Who said anything about inspections? 

Besides it really does not matter because you will have to take it out of the range bag to shoot anyway. 

Yes, I firmly believe gun range owners have the right to require safety checkouts of new shooters. 

Besides, this is standard protocol at most private clubs in NJ anyway and at many public ranges outside of NJ. 

This is of course not about preventing negligent discharged... but rather preventing much bigger incidents as a result of them. 

Personally I recall 4 NDs for myself.  Very first one was with a Walther or a beretta when I was brand new, about 15 years ago.  I dropped the mag thinking I was done, by memory I always point it down range and go click... well that time it went bang. 

My first time shooting a 44... double tapped it from the recoil....

and the last two were actually just in the past two months... 

first was shooting a friends competition shotgun, new to me... very very light trigger and it broke a bit earlier than I thought it would. 

The last time was actually two days ago.  Was shooting one of the precision guns I am working on a video of.  It has a 2lb single stage trigger.... yes the gun was on target but in my mind I am still pulling it looking for the two stage wall before breaking it.  Instead it broke cleanly and hit the bullseye as it was a single stage trigger.  In my mind, it is still a negligent discharge despite hitting the target. 

Everyone will have negligent discharged, the difference is with experienced and safety minded shooters the gun will be pointed down range in a safe direction...

with newbies it will generally not be. 

The most WTF one from my NJ public range experience is a shooter testing out his 500 Nitro Express gun before going on safari?  Dumbass loads both chambers leans the rifle against the wall and then walks away.  Gun drops and both barrels go off. Someone got hurt from the multiple ricochets. 

ND was a problem but not the biggest problems.... it was leaving a loaded gun propped against the wall and of course shooting a freaking 500 Nitro Express at a 25 yard indoor range. And yes... the round did go through those bullet proof barriers in between.

this is why I am such a proponent of shooting sports like idpa, uspsa, 3gun and steel matches.... yes there are Nds regularly, especially with some newer shooters but no one is going to get hurt h less you break multiple rules, i.e breaking the 180, AND the RO failed to stop you. 

At public ranges you generally don’t have 1 RO per every shooter.

This is why I would rather shoot at matches with brand new shooters where there is one shooter at a time with an RO plus most of the squad watching them than at a public indoor range on a busy night with semi-experienced shooters. 

You don’t need bag inspections to provide safety... you need sufficient oversight. 

Again I have Zero issues with new gun owners or even new gun owners wanting to shoot a SW500 their first time... BUT they are going to do it under careful supervision the first time they shoot it and especially if it is not their gun. Lol

and as far as new guns... this is why I will only load one round the first time I shoot it if I am unfamiliar with it and that is after numerous dry fires.

 

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23 minutes ago, Ray Ray said:

Because the RO can't hang on every port all the time.

^^^CAN I GET AN AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMMMMMEN!?

Often the RSO's are tied-up watchin' the Zombie killers tryin' to do half-assed mag dumps with their AR's into a zombie target that's only 5-7 yards away.  Enforcing the "NO RAPID FIRE" Rule can be very distracting to everyone on the firing line, even RSO's, especially with center fire rifles indoors.  Once a RSO gets "tuned-in" to THAT,  it takes a while to resume "patrol" of the other shooting ports.  RSO's are front line Customer Service Representatives (CSR's), and as such they can't be a "Hit & Run Dick" just bossing you around.  They have to "schmooze" with clients and promote good will while enforcing SAFETY.  Each "schmooze" takes time.  And no one can be everywhere at once!

Again, well stated Ray!

~R

 

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1 hour ago, Smokin .50 said:

^^^CAN I GET AN AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMMMMMEN!?

Often the RSO's are tied-up watchin' the Zombie killers tryin' to do half-assed mag dumps with their AR's into a zombie target that's only 5-7 yards away.  Enforcing the "NO RAPID FIRE" Rule can be very distracting to everyone on the firing line, even RSO's, especially with center fire rifles indoors.  Once a RSO gets "tuned-in" to THAT,  it takes a while to resume "patrol" of the other shooting ports.  RSO's are front line Customer Service Representatives (CSR's), and as such they can't be a "Hit & Run Dick" just bossing you around.  They have to "schmooze" with clients and promote good will while enforcing SAFETY.  Each "schmooze" takes time.  And no one can be everywhere at once!

Again, well stated Ray!

~R

 

So in reality I don't even have an issue with mag dumps as long as they are safe... and preferably outside.  Indoors there is just too much concussion if using a proper brake.

22lr mag dump?  By all means... as long as they are all hitting the back berm.

Private property or separate range with no one else there?  By all means. 

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you lost me at "big bore and ak47s.."

the first gun my wife ever shot was a Saiga carbine... the first gun I put in the hands of every new shooter is a carbine.... for one simple reason.. they are less likely to sweep you and everyone around you with a carbine.. its easier to be muzzle aware when you are swinging around a yard stick in front of you...

I feel safer with a new shooter and an AK.. than a new shooter with a 22 pistol.. but maybe thats just me.. 

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2 hours ago, vladtepes said:

you lost me at "big bore and ak47s.."

the first gun my wife ever shot was a Saiga carbine... the first gun I put in the hands of every new shooter is a carbine.... for one simple reason.. they are less likely to sweep you and everyone around you with a carbine.. its easier to be muzzle aware when you are swinging around a yard stick in front of you...

I feel safer with a new shooter and an AK.. than a new shooter with a 22 pistol.. but maybe thats just me.. 

Just you... starts at 2:37

 

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11 hours ago, Smokin .50 said:

^^^CAN I GET AN AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMMMMMEN!?

Often the RSO's are tied-up watchin' the Zombie killers tryin' to do half-assed mag dumps with their AR's into a zombie target that's only 5-7 yards away.  Enforcing the "NO RAPID FIRE" Rule can be very distracting to everyone on the firing line, even RSO's, especially with center fire rifles indoors.  Once a RSO gets "tuned-in" to THAT,  it takes a while to resume "patrol" of the other shooting ports.  RSO's are front line Customer Service Representatives (CSR's), and as such they can't be a "Hit & Run Dick" just bossing you around.  They have to "schmooze" with clients and promote good will while enforcing SAFETY.  Each "schmooze" takes time.  And no one can be everywhere at once!

Again, well stated Ray!

~R

 

So based on this line of thinking should the range hire more RO's to keep an eye on new shooters? It's easy to make a complaint and bitch about new shooters, but what is the solution? A lot of the suggestions were to have an RO "babysit them" or qualify them for use of rented guns that are big boys..... and now we have determined they cant be everywhere at once?

 

Look, im at a private a range. I had to sit through an hour of orientation of the Do's and Don't's of the range....I agree its very much needed.

Would you guys be willing to pay more money for range time to hire more RO's so they can watch these newbs?

Should we force new guys to take mandatory lessons?

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7 hours ago, vladtepes said:

you lost me at "big bore and ak47s.."

the first gun my wife ever shot was a Saiga carbine... the first gun I put in the hands of every new shooter is a carbine.... for one simple reason.. they are less likely to sweep you and everyone around you with a carbine.. its easier to be muzzle aware when you are swinging around a yard stick in front of you...

I feel safer with a new shooter and an AK.. than a new shooter with a 22 pistol.. but maybe thats just me.. 

Yep.  Unless of course your "AK" is chambered in .22 LR  :) 

Of course, a simple Henry .22 LR lever would give the same "carbine benefits" w/o the NOISE & pressure wave encountered inside.

"Carbine benefits", I think I'll use that again.  Thanks.

~R

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