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Greenday

The Need to Get into Reloading

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Any development on this? Loads improving? I generally in any rifle stick to factory dimensions with the exception of only bumping the shoulder back a few thousandths of an inch assuming all the rounds are for the same rifle. The brass will last longer(assuming no annealing)  and be a bit more accurate this way. The powder is generally where I play

Dillon 600 swage tool is great if you only pick up your own brass. I bought 5k once fired LC a few years ago and processed it all. I havent had to reprocess yet but I'm affraid I've picked up more than my own brass so I may have to reswage it all. It would be nice if it were on machine like the 1050. I may be forced to put the 3rd party swager on my 650 to save the time

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I'm pretty sure I have solid loads for 52gr Sierra Matchking w/ Varget and 55gr with both Varget and CFE223. I just picked up some H335 and plenty more 52gr MK so that'll be next to try out. I also need to work up a load for 69gr MK's.

Realistically, I need to get a chronograph to be doing this better.

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On 6/30/2019 at 8:26 PM, Greenday said:

Wouldn't that leave the primer pocket dirty?

If you are cleaning primer pockets you are wasting time... especially if you are not shooting benchrest.

You can clean them if you want, but the vast majority of guys and gals I know from the precision game quit doing that.

Unless you dug up the brass that had been deprimed and then burried, there is little reason to.  It's simply overkill.

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9 hours ago, Greenday said:

I'm pretty sure I have solid loads for 52gr Sierra Matchking w/ Varget and 55gr with both Varget and CFE223. I just picked up some H335 and plenty more 52gr MK so that'll be next to try out. I also need to work up a load for 69gr MK's.

Realistically, I need to get a chronograph to be doing this better.

I am dumbfounded how you or anyone else can get into reloading and subsequently hand loading and NOT having a chronograph.

It's like being a PC tuner without the ability to measure temperature, or a mechanic working on engines and not having access to the ECU or a dyno.

Following the "book" load is all fine and dandy BUT when you are playing near max loads (and generally that is where the majority of people choose to go), you NEED to know the velocity numbers out of YOUR gun, at YOUR elevation, in YOUR shooting environment.

This is far more critical than going down the rabbit hole of cleaning primer pockets, lol. 

And btw, the Chronograph, may just tell you that all of the meticulous case prep work you are doing does not make any difference in the actual results as the powder charge you are at is not in an accuracy node.

Get a chronograph, do a ladder test with your chosen powders and bullets, find the accuracy nodes, load some up, throw them at paper, generally the accuracy node will equate to nice tight groups (due to low extreme spreads and standard deviation), and then go down the rabbit hole to see how much more good prepwork can cut down in group size.

GET or borrow a chronograph.... either a cheap $100 Shooting Chrony/Competition Electronics OR a $500 LabRadar.  But without knowing the ACTUAL velocities, you are shooting with half of the information.

If you want to borrow my chrono, you are more than welcome to... just remember, you shot it, you bought it.  Or you can come shoot with me and try out my new LabRadar.

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6 hours ago, Maksim said:

I am dumbfounded how you or anyone else can get into reloading and subsequently hand loading and NOT having a chronograph.

Yea, it's the next logical purchase in line. I so far base it on groupings and I have one load that consistently provides tighter groups. But using a chronograph would help not only that but enable me to do calculations to estimate bullet flight paths for various ranges. So realistically, I have a powder dialed in at 100 yards for the 52gr MK but since I don't know the velocity, I don't actually know for certain where it'll hit at 200 or 300 yards.

I'd definitely appreciate having someone show me the nuances of using a chronograph.

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55 minutes ago, Greenday said:

Yea, it's the next logical purchase in line. I so far base it on groupings and I have one load that consistently provides tighter groups. But using a chronograph would help not only that but enable me to do calculations to estimate bullet flight paths for various ranges. So realistically, I have a powder dialed in at 100 yards for the 52gr MK but since I don't know the velocity, I don't actually know for certain where it'll hit at 200 or 300 yards.

I'd definitely appreciate having someone show me the nuances of using a chronograph.

Why are you using such light bullets? 

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33 minutes ago, JackDaWack said:

Why are you using such light bullets? 

Because at 100 yards, why would I need anything heavier? Unless it's stupid windy out, 52gr HPBT will do great at 100 yards. Once I go out further, I'll switch to 69gr and 77gr depending on weather.

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5 hours ago, W2MC said:

been reloading for years

never owned or even shot over a chronograph

I think I saw one at a range once

LOL.  Of course and I did not even use one myself at first, but then I realized how crazy I was not to use one once I got one. =P

For range ammo, I agree it does not matter much as long as you are not getting squibs and are paying attention to the brass and pressure signs.

But if you are loading match ammo  or for any gun games, you are missing the boat.

Seriously, you go "by the book" for velocity data but it is likely quite a bit off.

@cabalrayz It's okay to disagree but would really mean more if you actually said why. =P 

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4 minutes ago, Greenday said:

Because at 100 yards, why would I need anything heavier? Unless it's stupid windy out, 52gr HPBT will do great at 100 yards. Once I go out further, I'll switch to 69gr and 77gr depending on weather.

If your gun is suited to heavier bullets.

I.e. I have at least one AR with a 1 in 12 twist that won't stabilize 69 and 77.  LOVES 55 and under. @JackDaWack  And of course much cheaper bullets.

For plinking ammo won't really make a difference. 

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1 hour ago, Maksim said:

If your gun is suited to heavier bullets.

I.e. I have at least one AR with a 1 in 12 twist that won't stabilize 69 and 77.  LOVES 55 and under. @JackDaWack  And of course much cheaper bullets.

For plinking ammo won't really make a difference. 

My RAR is 1 in 8 twist. Despite the shorter barrel, I've tested some 77s and seems fine from a cursory glance.

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1 hour ago, Maksim said:

If your gun is suited to heavier bullets.

I.e. I have at least one AR with a 1 in 12 twist that won't stabilize 69 and 77.  LOVES 55 and under. @JackDaWack  And of course much cheaper bullets.

For plinking ammo won't really make a difference. 

That's why I asked.... AFAIK, the reason match bullets are cheaper at low weights is because not many people use them... they seems to be on sale very often. 

Regardless, the barrel rate would suggest it shoots neither light or heavy bullets with optimal performance(at any range)... I understand mileage may vary... 

If your end goal is accuracy, which GD seems to be focused on, then it's a good point of discussion to consider... 

FYI, ive been getting match Hornady bullets from  https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com

 

 

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6 hours ago, JackDaWack said:

That's why I asked.... AFAIK, the reason match bullets are cheaper at low weights is because not many people use them... they seems to be on sale very often. 

Regardless, the barrel rate would suggest it shoots neither light or heavy bullets with optimal performance(at any range)... I understand mileage may vary... 

If your end goal is accuracy, which GD seems to be focused on, then it's a good point of discussion to consider... 

FYI, ive been getting match Hornady bullets from  https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com

 

 

Yes, lower weight match bullets are cheaper but also partly due to more of them being produced and less overall materials cost. 

Even still though, at shorter distances, say under 300 yards, I doubt anyone will see much difference in group sizes between 55 grain eld match and 77 grain.

Some of the best results I got with 223 was the regular HPBT 55 grain... unless you are shooting longer distances where bullet passes back subsonic, I think shooting the meaningfully more expensive on a % basis bullets is a waste. To each their own though I suppose? and that is why we have some gun owner who can't shoot minute of barn buy guns capable of .25 moa. =P 

But I do buy my 223 bullets in bulk and quite like the xtreme plated 223 55 grain.  Works fine for 95% of shooting under 300 yards here.  

@Greenday let me know if you want to borrow or use my chrono.

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10 minutes ago, njJoniGuy said:

Maks wanted a new one anyway!

 

3 hours ago, Greenday said:

Yea, if I could use it with help, I'd appreciate it. This way I have it setup correctly.

haha.  Thanks to Creedmoor Sports, I got a Labradar.  What a great piece of equipment! 

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On 9/7/2019 at 2:07 AM, Maksim said:

If you are cleaning primer pockets you are wasting time... especially if you are not shooting benchrest.

You can clean them if you want, but the vast majority of guys and gals I know from the precision game quit doing that.

Unless you dug up the brass that had been deprimed and then burried, there is little reason to.  It's simply overkill.

Good doctor - I kind of agree and disagree.  The thing that can screw you up is if there is a carbon deposit built up at the base of the pocket.  If so your primer may not seat properly.  Other than that, minimal positive benefits are experienced.  Now in my experience most benchrest guys do clean and uniform primer pockets and flash hole.  But they're crazy anyways.

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8 minutes ago, Old School said:

Good doctor - I kind of agree and disagree.  The thing that can screw you up is if there is a carbon deposit built up at the base of the pocket.  If so your primer may not seat properly.  Other than that, minimal positive benefits are experienced.  Now in my experience most benchrest guys do clean and uniform primer pockets and flash hole.  But they're crazy anyways.

You only have to uniform the flash hole once. You need to make certain EVERY TIME that the flash hole is not clogged by anything (typically corn cob (dry tumble) or stainless pins (wet tumble))

A high primer in an AR round is a slamfire just waiting to happen, so a CLEAN primer pocket is necessary for safety's sake.

Uniforming the primer pocket is a brass-specific decision. So yes, it could be a sign of a crazy mind if it wasn't necessary to begin with.

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2 hours ago, njJoniGuy said:

You only have to uniform the flash hole once. You need to make certain EVERY TIME that the flash hole is not clogged by anything (typically corn cob (dry tumble) or stainless pins (wet tumble))

A high primer in an AR round is a slamfire just waiting to happen, so a CLEAN primer pocket is necessary for safety's sake.

Uniforming the primer pocket is a brass-specific decision. So yes, it could be a sign of a crazy mind if it wasn't necessary to begin with.

Brian - No argument here! BTW decaping automatically clears the flash hole

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Not if its done before tumbling. I used to manually go though all cases and check each would clear with a straight dental pick. Switched to lizard bedding and pieces were too small to stick. Then switched to wet ss pins don't stick either

I suppose you could run a universal decapping die to clear them if you have a spare station before priming

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2 hours ago, George Yetka said:

Not if its done before tumbling. I used to manually go though all cases and check each would clear with a straight dental pick. Switched to lizard bedding and pieces were too small to stick. Then switched to wet ss pins don't stick either

I suppose you could run a universal decapping die to clear them if you have a spare station before priming

I've been going in the order of:

Universal decapping die > Wet Tumble > Resizing Die > Camfer/Debur/Pocket Ream/Pocket Clean > etc.

I find going in that order gets the pockets nice and clean and the stainless steel media isn't a problem getting out.

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Decided to just go ahead and buy a chronometer. Hoping to get to the Range tomorrow to use it but we'll see. Testing out 3 loads of my SMK 52gr's w/ H4895 and 2 loads of my SMK 69's w/ Win 748.

My friend gave me loads with those two for his Rugar American Predator 223. But both are overloads. And while I trust him as he's been a competition shooter before I was born, I still want to be cautious with new powders I have no experience with.

But he's got me recording just about everything I can measure: Powder, Powder Lot, Powder Amount, Bullet, Bullet Lot, Primer, Primer Lot, Trim Length, Datum Length, Base to Ogive length, C.O.A.L., Date I made them, Date I fire them, Avg velocity, weather, velocity spread, and notes. He keeps a little pocket notebook and I created a MS word sheet where six templates per piece of paper are printed with all those sections. They are perfect for him to tape in his notebook to save him time from having to write down all those metrics. Now he just has to fill in the numbers.

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20 minutes ago, Greenday said:

But he's got me recording just about everything I can measure: Powder, Powder Lot, Powder Amount, Bullet, Bullet Lot, Primer, Primer Lot, Trim Length, Datum Length, Base to Ogive length, C.O.A.L., Date I made them, Date I fire them, Avg velocity, weather, velocity spread, and notes. He keeps a little pocket notebook and I created a MS word sheet where six templates per piece of paper are printed with all those sections. They are perfect for him to tape in his notebook to save him time from having to write down all those metrics. Now he just has to fill in the numbers.

That would suck all the joy out of reloading for me.

i have a reloading book with my load information, but most of what you're recording would be useless to me.

I hope you'll be able to use all of it.

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1 hour ago, 124gr9mm said:

That would suck all the joy out of reloading for me.

i have a reloading book with my load information, but most of what you're recording would be useless to me.

I hope you'll be able to use all of it.

 

30 minutes ago, Sniper said:

Me too.... Waaayyyyyy too much work....

I just go buy a case of factory ammo, and call it a day.... sometimes simple is better...

I can totally appreciate that. It feels like a lot of work. But it's nerdy and that's just me. I love this kind of stuff. Statistics is fascinating. Honestly, if I could use my equipment at work so I could figure out the EXACT amount of gases produced so I can figure out exactly how much powder I could use to reach just below max pressure, I would but that's frowned upon.

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11 hours ago, Greenday said:

 

I can totally appreciate that. It feels like a lot of work. But it's nerdy and that's just me. I love this kind of stuff. Statistics is fascinating. Honestly, if I could use my equipment at work so I could figure out the EXACT amount of gases produced so I can figure out exactly how much powder I could use to reach just below max pressure, I would but that's frowned upon.

Loading to max pressure....  why?

 

Some things in this thread....  proper brass prep is required for all shooting...  especially rifle calibers...  and that does include cleaning a primer pocket..and at time removing a crimp.

@oldschool was correct you need proper primer depth in a semi auto rifle   ....  to ignore that is a potential problem.  We wont talk about annealing just yet...

As we are talking semi auto, we assume you do a full case size, trim, prep case mouth, primer pocket etc and drop it in a case guage..and qc the entire piece of brass...  especially the head for flatness an uniformity....  see if your rifle has rough extraction like a fal m1a/14 garand....they can deform the case head lip....  if that is not symmetrical, flat and uniform, it throughs off your headsapce.  You know what that is right?

You are responsible for every step of the process, negating one step as it may seem silly can be a recipe for disaster.

I am still curious as to loading to max, i have been loading since 1994, i started with .32 acp of all things on a lyman spar t press...i have never ever loaded to max.

I have a 1903A3, that loves and shoots lights out at 100, off hand with less than a start load.  It just flat out likes it...  when i get to M2ball characteristics groups open...  

Max loading is not necessarily better and this is not a gun game for power factor.

Your fired brass will tell you more about your load than a chrono

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55 minutes ago, USRifle30Cal said:

As we are talking semi auto

Just a FYI, I'm using a bolt (Ruger American Ranch in 5.56).

And I should clarify my comments on reaching max pressure. It's more of knowing what the max grains are so as I work a load (which I don't start near the max), if the highest load I test works best, from there I'd test slightly above and below that (So if I think 23gr is my original guess, I'd start with 22.5, 23, 23.5. Then if 23.5 gets most consistent results, test 23.7, 23.3). So eventually, ideally knowing what the max safe load is, I know how much wiggle room I have.

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1 hour ago, Greenday said:

Just a FYI, I'm using a bolt (Ruger American Ranch in 5.56).

And I should clarify my comments on reaching max pressure. It's more of knowing what the max grains are so as I work a load (which I don't start near the max), if the highest load I test works best, from there I'd test slightly above and below that (So if I think 23gr is my original guess, I'd start with 22.5, 23, 23.5. Then if 23.5 gets most consistent results, test 23.7, 23.3). So eventually, ideally knowing what the max safe load is, I know how much wiggle room I have.

Ummmmm...wait...that is bassackwards....  you don't develop loads like that....  when you get at max or above tenths of grains start to really push pressure....  as a new reloader i suggest you do the exact opposite....

So now we are bolt gun....same principles apply, but i would only next size and i do that.

For all my bolt guns, especially 303's all brass is segregated per rifle and only.next sized....you can ring additional accuracy that way

 

Why are you zeroing in on max loads ?

What performance do you think you are going to gain at max...?  

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21 minutes ago, USRifle30Cal said:

Ummmmm...wait...that is bassackwards....  you don't develop loads like that....  when you get at max or above tenths of grains start to really push pressure....  as a new reloader i suggest you do the exact opposite....

So now we are bolt gun....same principles apply, but i would only next size and i do that.

For all my bolt guns, especially 303's all brass is segregated per rifle and only.next sized....you can ring additional accuracy that way

Why are you zeroing in on max loads ?

What performance do you think you are going to gain at max...?  

I'm not zeroing in on max loads. Just saying if that's just what works for that bullet with that powder in that case in my rifle, it'd be a benefit.

So let's take H335 which I bought recently on sale. For the SMK 52gr, I'll probably start around 26.2gr of H335. Then I'll make some at 26.7 and 25.7. Sierra lists max as 27.6. If 26.7 turns out to be the best of those three, I'll then bracket that with loads close. And if say 26.9gr is better, I'd slowly work upwards.

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