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Greenday

The Need to Get into Reloading

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2 hours ago, njJoniGuy said:

Makes you want to cry ...

assuming you still have functioning tear ducts after your gun blows up in your face.

 

Yep - the web is full of folks that blew up their guns.

1 hour ago, Zeke said:

This is a lesson on helping a horse to water... you fools and your folly

Just maybe it will drink - maybe

 

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What’s difference between Greenday and kapernick?

.

nothing . They are both bullshiting and trolling.and really hoping you take sympathy on them like a  beggared. 

And when  you know  I’m right, punch yourself rilly hard and tell me how it feels. And don’t do it again you dum as sess

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So, interesting thing happened tonight while I was sizing and trimming brass for future use. Looked at the page for 52gr 223 in my Sierra 6th Edition. Max load for H335 is listed as 24.0gr. In the 5th edition, it's listed as 27.6gr with their accuracy load listed as H335 26.9gr.

What would cause such a drastic difference?

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A lot of load data was arrived at by simply examining the fired cases for pressure signs. Data in some of the newer manuals is arrived at using a pressure transducer. I believe that Speer made that change starting with Speer #9. This accounts for some of large differences we see from the older manuals to the latest ones.

you should always start low and work up while checking for pressure signs.

Adios,

Pizza Bob

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20 minutes ago, Pizza Bob said:

A lot of load data was arrived at by simply examining the fired cases for pressure signs. Data in some of the newer manuals is arrived at using a pressure transducer. I believe that Speer made that change starting with Speer #9. This accounts for some of large differences we see from the older manuals to the latest ones.

you should always start low and work up while checking for pressure signs.

Adios,

Pizza Bob

Ah, amazing how far technology has gone. That's how I would do it. Combust a small amount, say 6-7 grains worth, in a bomb calorimeter hooked up to a pressure transducer.

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11 hours ago, JC_68Westy said:

Hodgdon does not list a 52gr on their site, but it does list a max for both 50gr and 53gr at 26gr of powder @52,000CUP. You are playing with fore exceeding 26gr of H335.

Thank you!

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On 9/7/2019 at 6:29 PM, Maksim said:

Yes, lower weight match bullets are cheaper but also partly due to more of them being produced and less overall materials cost. 

Even still though, at shorter distances, say under 300 yards, I doubt anyone will see much difference in group sizes between 55 grain eld match and 77 grain.

Some of the best results I got with 223 was the regular HPBT 55 grain... unless you are shooting longer distances where bullet passes back subsonic, I think shooting the meaningfully more expensive on a % basis bullets is a waste. To each their own though I suppose? and that is why we have some gun owner who can't shoot minute of barn buy guns capable of .25 moa. =P 

But I do buy my 223 bullets in bulk and quite like the xtreme plated 223 55 grain.  Works fine for 95% of shooting under 300 yards here.  

@Greenday let me know if you want to borrow or use my chrono.

Maybe that's true, but Match bullets are not really cheaper regardless of weight.... 52-77 grain maybe a 1 or 2 cent difference, not including sales. 

I think anyone with proficiency can see the accuracy differences when they find the correct weight bullet in their rifle, pushed with the correct pressure.. even at 100 yards.  

 

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2 hours ago, JackDaWack said:

Maybe that's true, but Match bullets are not really cheaper regardless of weight.... 52-77 grain maybe a 1 or 2 cent difference, not including sales. 

I think anyone with proficiency can see the accuracy differences when they find the correct weight bullet in their rifle, pushed with the correct pressure.. even at 100 yards.  

 

Define accuracy at 100 yards?  And of course there is going to be a difference and bullet prices will be different. Compare bulk 223 55 gr and say eld match bullets.... Big big difference. 

But or course it does depend on what you are shooting... Benchrest, run and gun, etc. Different goals and priorities. 

But in all of those cases, at 100 yards the barrel and powder will make a big difference.

But this is what load development is all about. I have guns that shoot regular fmj bt better than match bullets, without even going jntk sorting by weight. 

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Well, I learned quite a bit today. Went to Range 14, got myself a membership ($60 for a year? 3 visits and it's paid for itself). Set up my new Competition Electronics ProChrono DLX as directed. And off I went.

I'll tell you what, I really learned a lot about how much the RAR's short barrel length (16") affects velocity. My Lee scale's calibration was still good (0 read 0, 25 read 25). Velocities were just 200-300 lower than what Sierra claims based off their test rifles. Fired some Wolf Gold 55gr just for comparison and that was 300fps slower than what Wolf claims. It's one thing to hear about barrel length affecting velocities but actually testing it and seeing the results yourself is really cool. Interesting link I was just reading: https://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_barrel.htm

No max or overpressured loads were used in today's testing. Just modest loads slightly above minimum. Velocities ranged from 2450-2700 depending on power and load. And that sounds slow as hell to me. But the accuracy was there. Not so much with the Win 748 powder. But I had a few 5 round groups around 0.7-0.72" and managed a 0.61" grouping with H335 for a 69gr SMK.

So am I thrilled with these velocities that don't touch Sierra's listed velocities? No, but the fact is my barrel is about 8" shorter than what they test with. But am I happy with getting standard deviations as low as 13-20 fps and tight groups at 100 yards with a headwind of about 10mph? Hell yes. It's a short, budget hunting rifle. It's not meant for competition. But dear God is my setup with it fun as hell.

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8 hours ago, Greenday said:

Well, I learned quite a bit today. Went to Range 14, got myself a membership ($60 for a year? 3 visits and it's paid for itself). Set up my new Competition Electronics ProChrono DLX as directed. And off I went.

I'll tell you what, I really learned a lot about how much the RAR's short barrel length (16") affects velocity. My Lee scale's calibration was still good (0 read 0, 25 read 25). Velocities were just 200-300 lower than what Sierra claims based off their test rifles. Fired some Wolf Gold 55gr just for comparison and that was 300fps slower than what Wolf claims. It's one thing to hear about barrel length affecting velocities but actually testing it and seeing the results yourself is really cool. Interesting link I was just reading: https://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_barrel.htm

No max or overpressured loads were used in today's testing. Just modest loads slightly above minimum. Velocities ranged from 2450-2700 depending on power and load. And that sounds slow as hell to me. But the accuracy was there. Not so much with the Win 748 powder. But I had a few 5 round groups around 0.7-0.72" and managed a 0.61" grouping with H335 for a 69gr SMK.

So am I thrilled with these velocities that don't touch Sierra's listed velocities? No, but the fact is my barrel is about 8" shorter than what they test with. But am I happy with getting standard deviations as low as 13-20 fps and tight groups at 100 yards with a headwind of about 10mph? Hell yes. It's a short, budget hunting rifle. It's not meant for competition. But dear God is my setup with it fun as hell.

With 223 you have a few factors...

Brass can easily effect velocities by a few hundred FPS depending on case volume.  Same charge in lower case volume = higher pressure.

Then yes... barrel size will make a difference too as a lot of the posted data is for 24" barrels.

Then you also have to figure out if it is a new barrel or an broken in barrel.

Beyond that... the powders you are using... are they temperature sensitive?  If so, regular or inverse?

You found a chrono?

 

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17 hours ago, Greenday said:

Velocities ranged from 2450-2700 depending on power and load. And that sounds slow as hell to me. But the accuracy was there.

What are we chasing here - ?

 

Velocity?  If so go to .243 Win - in an around the same bullet size...24 Barrel

Bullet mass/type Velocity Energy
55 gr (4 g) BT 4,058 ft/s (1,237 m/s) 2,012 ft⋅lbf (2,728 J)
65 gr (4 g) BT 3,746 ft/s (1,142 m/s) 2,026 ft⋅lbf (2,747 J)
75 gr (5 g) HP 3,447 ft/s (1,051 m/s) 1,979 ft⋅lbf (2,683 J)
90 gr (6 g) SP 3,203 ft/s (976 m/s) 2,051 ft⋅lbf (2,781 J)
105 gr (7 g) Amax BT 3,025 ft/s (922 m/s) 2,134 ft⋅lbf (2,893 J)

 

What is an extra few hundred feet per second netting you if you are shooting at 100yds and the accuracy is there at the slower load.

Actually, in all things being equal, in a bolt gun for sub 150yd sniping - the .243 is hard to beat.

 

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9 hours ago, Maksim said:

With 223 you have a few factors...

Brass can easily effect velocities by a few hundred FPS depending on case volume.  Same charge in lower case volume = higher pressure.

Then yes... barrel size will make a difference too as a lot of the posted data is for 24" barrels.

Then you also have to figure out if it is a new barrel or an broken in barrel.

Beyond that... the powders you are using... are they temperature sensitive?  If so, regular or inverse?

You found a chrono?

 

All great points. Case volume is huge. 20gr of powder is going to (theoretically) produce the same amount of gas every time. But a case that is 90% the volume of a "normal" case will (theoretically) produce 11% more pressure.

I did. Nothing super fancy bought I bought Competition Electronics' ProChrono DLX. Had a good discount coupon on Optics Planet. Super easy to use and I really like the app that goes with it. Fire a round, it verbally tells you the velocity, and stores lots of useful stats.

53 minutes ago, USRifle30Cal said:

 

What is an extra few hundred feet per second netting you if you are shooting at 100yds and the accuracy is there at the slower load.

Actually, in all things being equal, in a bolt gun for sub 150yd sniping - the .243 is hard to beat.

I haven't had any experience with .243 but theres so many cool rounds when you get away from the standard 223/308/6.5s.

So at 100 yards, the slower velocity isn't a big deal. The accuracy is there so I can shoot the 52gr all day long.

I really want to do the 300 yard tournaments this winter at South Jersey Shooting Club. And the 69gr SMK would be a great bullet for that range. But I feel like the slower velocities will be felt a lot more.

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2 hours ago, Greenday said:

I really want to do the 300 yard tournaments this winter at South Jersey Shooting Club. And the 69gr SMK would be a great bullet for that range. But I feel like the slower velocities will be felt a lot more.

Let me clue you in on a few things - shooting at distance involves so much more than the actual gear.

Many contributing factors will dictate your success or abject failure on this endeavour and it will not be calculated in FPS from your reloads....  :)

 

But now it all kinda makes sense what you are trying to achieve - so if this is what you are doing you now need to step up your reloading game and it is not just working up the load.

Bullet uniformity, of size type and weight

Case segregation of type weight dimensions

Case prep - case mouth, primer pocket & flash hole

Uniformity of powder drop, uniformity of seating depth of bullet and primer, uniformity of crimp or not

 

Beyond that you other gear, is your scope setup properly? Torqued to spec? Have the rings been lapped - trued? Do you understand parallax?  Do you understand repeatability of you mounting the gun to your body?

Are you shooting off a bench? Bipod, if so are you loading it?  If a sling, do you know how to properly sling up with the sling you have?

ETC.


All the above can be spot on for the most part, but you are still the unknown variable at the break.....

 

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3 hours ago, USRifle30Cal said:

Let me clue you in on a few things - shooting at distance involves so much more than the actual gear.

Many contributing factors will dictate your success or abject failure on this endeavour and it will not be calculated in FPS from your reloads....  :)

But now it all kinda makes sense what you are trying to achieve - so if this is what you are doing you now need to step up your reloading game and it is not just working up the load.

Bullet uniformity, of size type and weight

Case segregation of type weight dimensions

Case prep - case mouth, primer pocket & flash hole

Uniformity of powder drop, uniformity of seating depth of bullet and primer, uniformity of crimp or not

Beyond that you other gear, is your scope setup properly? Torqued to spec? Have the rings been lapped - trued? Do you understand parallax?  Do you understand repeatability of you mounting the gun to your body?

Are you shooting off a bench? Bipod, if so are you loading it?  If a sling, do you know how to properly sling up with the sling you have?


All the above can be spot on for the most part, but you are still the unknown variable at the break.....

My main thing about velocity at this point is how long the bullet spends in the air. The lower velocities means it's in the air that much longer making it more susceptible to gusts of wind.

I try to keep as many factors the same for each load. I arrange my cases by lot, how many times fired, dimensions. I keep everything as consistent as possible so when the time comes, the biggest variable is my aim.

It's one of the great things about having an indoor 100 yard range for practice nearby. I can work on my fundamentals without having to account for changes in temperature, humidity, wind. When I fire the same load trip to trip, my zero doesn't change on my Nikon scope. I usually only try to practice one or two things at most per trip. When testing out new loads, I shoot off bags on the bench. I've shot prone with both bags and bipod. I've found my comfort positions that work for me and it's just about repeatability. How I aim my rifle, my breathing, taking my time between shots to let the chamber cool.

When I pick up a hobby, I nerd out. I can't just be super casual about it. I like challenging myself, learning, and getting better.

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  -- Is this a good on-line supplier, for powder, bullets, primers? 
https://www.midwayusa.com/reloading-supplies/

  -- Other?, please feel free to suggest or generally comment opinion. 
  -- Gotchas to look out for, recommendations of "better for the few cents more" stuff; or, no not worth it use [some-other-clever-way]?

[Do I need to start a new thread with this, my question(s), or OK to proceed from here in this one? Let me know the "protocol", preference, "culture" here, -- I would not otherwise know.] 


 

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Midway is reputable, but unless there is a good sale, they usually aren't reasonably priced. 

I usually get my rifle bullets from midsouth shooters supply. 

Powder and primers usually from powder valley Inc or midsouth. 
 

I buy a lot of pistol bullets and brass from nereloading
 

 

 

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15 hours ago, jbendix said:

  -- Is this a good on-line supplier, for powder, bullets, primers? 
https://www.midwayusa.com/reloading-supplies/

  -- Other?, please feel free to suggest or generally comment opinion. 
  -- Gotchas to look out for, recommendations of "better for the few cents more" stuff; or, no not worth it use [some-other-clever-way]?

[Do I need to start a new thread with this, my question(s), or OK to proceed from here in this one? Let me know the "protocol", preference, "culture" here, -- I would not otherwise know.] 


 

Midway has a lot of stuff but I find they are slow. things usually take more than a week to get to you. Sorry i missed this post, yesterday brownells had 1 cent hazmat and free shipping on $150+  on powder/primers. They do it once a month or so and their prices and speed are better than Midway.

I have ordered powder from

Grafs(they are a great company never have free hazmat but occasionally 1/ price and they have flat rate shipping. If you're ordering a bore brush only dont order from them but if you are ordering 2 tons of lead its the same shipping price.)

Powder valley (used to have the best prices but I have noticed thats not true anymore)

Brownells(good sales, good stock)

 

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All above:

-- Thank you much for that. 

It may take me 3 - 4 days to get back and respond, but I will always thank folks. 

FYI on whom you are so kindly advising:
 -- I've done some 30 hours of reading on this, and seems like may have another 30 or so prior to "doing" anything. 

This topic on the Net is all over the place, as one may expect, -- so until I start reading "redundant hits" I'll keep looking for the scope of things with fact and personal preference mixed as it goes. This is very helpful though, thank you again. 

  -- I read from Dillon Turret setups to the Lee Loader (hammer and anvil), and the Lyman 310 (which seem overprice as used, imo..., but not sure I *can have an opinion, -- yet! Nice unit though, -- Lee copied hand press?) 

I do like learning from "widget one" (since teach/train others in other things, -- nothing like this). I like the Lee Loader, (hammer and anvil), -- per video does a Rifle Round in 40 secs on YT. 

If I do engaged, it will be for the fun of it (yes, I love "science" and ballistics and what really happens versus "opinion" that gets spread so easily :) ... how that goes. Lots of stuff sold on "mojo" it seems. Knowing ballistics was part of an old, long ago career path I changed tracks from.) 

So, for me as far as I know at this point, -- if I can load 50 rds an hour while sitting on the floor watching TV, I'm fine (and don't make a mess). 

My style of shooting, unlike many here who are the real thing I see, like my old long gone Dad,  -- we drop maybe 50 -- 22LRs at .03 cents ea :) hahhh!, then 20 or so of one or two other types (Rentals), and then in an hour of breathing that "wonderful?" indoor range air, -- leave and have lunch. (Is that air really safe? :) geese.) 

 -- I'll leave it there since I do tend to write to much (I work on-line or "around-on-line", ironically, and forget most really hate TLTR posts, so apologies if this was too long, I'm not a tweeter, I write letters with pen and paper ;)). Just letting you know, your advising someone who really appreciates it, talks to much about it, and kind of resurrecting an old, long ago LEO passion, -- but don't want to go back to living like a mercenary, days either, -- kidding, but you may get my drift. The wife now, would not like "that". 

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22 hours ago, jbendix said:

All above:

-- Thank you much for that. 

It may take me 3 - 4 days to get back and respond, but I will always thank folks. 

FYI on whom you are so kindly advising:
 -- I've done some 30 hours of reading on this, and seems like may have another 30 or so prior to "doing" anything. 

This topic on the Net is all over the place, as one may expect, -- so until I start reading "redundant hits" I'll keep looking for the scope of things with fact and personal preference mixed as it goes. This is very helpful though, thank you again. 

  -- I read from Dillon Turret setups to the Lee Loader (hammer and anvil), and the Lyman 310 (which seem overprice as used, imo..., but not sure I *can have an opinion, -- yet! Nice unit though, -- Lee copied hand press?) 

I do like learning from "widget one" (since teach/train others in other things, -- nothing like this). I like the Lee Loader, (hammer and anvil), -- per video does a Rifle Round in 40 secs on YT. 

If I do engaged, it will be for the fun of it (yes, I love "science" and ballistics and what really happens versus "opinion" that gets spread so easily :) ... how that goes. Lots of stuff sold on "mojo" it seems. Knowing ballistics was part of an old, long ago career path I changed tracks from.) 

So, for me as far as I know at this point, -- if I can load 50 rds an hour while sitting on the floor watching TV, I'm fine (and don't make a mess). 

My style of shooting, unlike many here who are the real thing I see, like my old long gone Dad,  -- we drop maybe 50 -- 22LRs at .03 cents ea :) hahhh!, then 20 or so of one or two other types (Rentals), and then in an hour of breathing that "wonderful?" indoor range air, -- leave and have lunch. (Is that air really safe? :) geese.) 

 -- I'll leave it there since I do tend to write to much (I work on-line or "around-on-line", ironically, and forget most really hate TLTR posts, so apologies if this was too long, I'm not a tweeter, I write letters with pen and paper ;)). Just letting you know, your advising someone who really appreciates it, talks to much about it, and kind of resurrecting an old, long ago LEO passion, -- but don't want to go back to living like a mercenary, days either, -- kidding, but you may get my drift. The wife now, would not like "that". 

Feel free to start a new thread if you have specific questions, this way it can have organized responses instead of getting burried in this one. 

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2 hours ago, JackDaWack said:

Feel free to start a new thread if you have specific questions, this way it can have organized responses instead of getting burried in this one. 

Hey Jack, -- thanks.

I think I got what I need and appreciate the input very much as I tried to convey. I also read/red/watched/watchededah all the Ruels/Rules posted and etcetera. 

Apparently you have a bunch of asshole trolls (and per your "Gentry" hear/here/hair, -- * burried is spelled [buried], -- but, I'M OK  WITH THAT, I APPRECIATE YOUR EFFORT HERE, "t h o u g h"), -- anyway...,
  ---- here who don't know how to engage on line (new folks too), past twits tweets (1 thought ata time? only?) --  and may even be "aca-dem-itians" who have allot more time on their hands than I do. I no, I no... just kidd'in, -- toothless redneck Najoisians, -- yee hahh! 

I'll go back to reading and then in a year or two if I think the "brillance" of the "membahship" here is "kontributory", I'll B back den. Uno? 

Admin, -- this is what I spoke of in the Binocular Offer; back to lurking... oh, yeah..., and why I didn't respond to the Reloading Items For Sale in Woodbridge, NJ, -- really? Folks like dis com'in to dah house to see ur stuff? Ohhh Kaaayyy, gud ideayahh. 

Good luck! 

 

Just now, jbendix said:

Hey Jack, -- thanks.

I think I got what I need and appreciate the input very much as I tried to convey. I also read/red/watched/watchededah all the Ruels/Rules posted and etcetera. 

Apparently you have a bunch of asshole trolls (and per your "Gentry" hear/here/hair, -- * burried is spelled [buried], -- but, I'M OK  WITH THAT, I APPRECIATE YOUR EFFORT HERE, "t h o u g h"), -- anyway...,
  ---- here who don't know how to engage on line (new folks too), past twits tweets (1 thought ata time? only?) --  and may even be "aca-dem-itians" who have allot more time on their hands than I do. I no, I no... just kidd'in, -- toothless redneck Najoisians, -- yee hahh! 

I'll go back to reading and then in a year or two if I think the "brillance" of the "membahship" here is "kontributory", I'll B back den. Uno? 

Admin, -- this is what I spoke of in the Binocular Offer; back to lurking... oh, yeah..., and why I didn't respond to the Reloading Items For Sale in Woodbridge, NJ, -- really? Folks like dis com'in to dah house to see ur stuff? Ohhh Kaaayyy, gud ideayahh. 

Good luck! 

 

See my other thread, -- selling on line advice, got any? No thanks. 

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