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Greenday

The Need to Get into Reloading

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28 minutes ago, USRifle30Cal said:

Ummmmm...wait...that is bassackwards....  you don't develop loads like that....  when you get at max or above tenths of grains start to really push pressure....  as a new reloader i suggest you do the exact opposite....

He's going to severely injure himself or kill someone nearby....

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22 minutes ago, njJoniGuy said:

I agree.

Given his posts in this thread, I believe that this may be his unconscious desire.

I'm sure glad he doesn't shoot at SJSC or Cumberland!

Stick to your factory loads then if following a reloading manual scares you so much.

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36 minutes ago, Greenday said:

I'm not zeroing in on max loads. Just saying if that's just what works for that bullet with that powder in that case in my rifle, it'd be a benefit.

So let's take H335 which I bought recently on sale. For the SMK 52gr, I'll probably start around 26.2gr of H335. Then I'll make some at 26.7 and 25.7. Sierra lists max as 27.6. If 26.7 turns out to be the best of those three, I'll then bracket that with loads close. And if say 26.9gr is better, I'd slowly work upwards.

Again what is the benefit of a max loading....

 

As i said...a ww2 1903a3...send 150gr pills at 100 very very accurately...at loading that is slightly less than min.

I am not saying that near max might not be your guns load...but what is the obsession with max.

 

When you get to max and above, everything and i mean everything  else better be spot in perfect as you are tickling the tale of the dragon...

33 minutes ago, Sniper said:

He's going to severely injure himself or kill someone nearby....

Agreed and while it *is* greenday...lol we owe it to help him for safeties sake

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4 minutes ago, Greenday said:

if following a reloading manual scares you so much.

But that's NOT what you're doing, if fact you don't even want to listen to experience here, and rather think you know more... which could end up with a very serious misjudgement.

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1 minute ago, USRifle30Cal said:

Again what is the benefit of a max loading....

As i said...a ww2 1903a3...send 150gr pills at 100 very very accurately...at loading that is slightly less than min.

I am not saying that near max might not be your guns load...but what is the obsession with max.

Agreed and while it *is* greenday...lol we owe it to help him for safeties sake

I'm not. I just want to ensure that IF the most accurate load is closer to max than min, I know what max actually is so I don't load too much and just stick with good enough.

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2 minutes ago, Greenday said:

I'm not. I just want to ensure that IF the most accurate load is closer to max than min, I know what max actually is so I don't load too much and just stick with good enough.

I get it.....

 

*but*, sometimes the inverse is true....start at MINIMUM and work your way up...AVOID MAX LOADS...

 

Until you are 1000000000% sure that everything else is spot on in spec...

 

Whats the headspace of your rifle, no wrong word....test gun?

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4 minutes ago, USRifle30Cal said:

Agreed and while it *is* greenday...lol we owe it to help him for safeties sake

Yes, we try to help the inexperienced with our years of knowledge, but he's a Millennial, and thinks he knows everything.

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@Greenday

 

Let me show you something.   Came from an old fellow that has recently died and he has been known to be a good reloader this is a 38 Super:

 

MN39r82.jpg

 

 

That is a case head blowout....that  Was shot in a full size Colt 1911 it also included a full mag blow out mag destruction and a face full of gas from the recoil ....

Max or over max is nothing to phuk around with....it can have disastrous results...

Did he mess up?  Was he loading for max?

Was he loading for power factor?

 

Who knows, but that was an overpressure round....  NONE of his old reloads can be trusted now.

All to be broken down over the winter for components...

 

I keep it on my bench to remind me, of what can go wrong

 

 

 

 

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I'm not trying to hit max. I'm starting at loads my friend uses in his Ruger American for competition shooting. Except for the last two he gave me that are over the recommended max. I'm starting lower in the range in the Sierra manual.

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A lot of people funk around with max loads because they never get the velocities they state in manuals. 

I am a little guilty of this myself... but great care is taken to not go over the max load for any reason. As stated things start to pressurize much quicker with fewer powder added... some types being more forgiving than others. 

In most my handguns, i get no where near the stated velocities for titegroup. And subsequently they are loaded at max, group great, and have factory velocities.. I hear people have similar issues with CFE in .223..  But i know Titegroup will over pressurize way quicker over max then squeezing out an addition 20fps... clearly not worth the chance.

The biggest issue is that pressure can spike quickly with a few tenths of a grain over max, like major spikes, and you only see a marginal increase in velocities. This is why starting low and working your way up will give you the actual "curve" of velocity to powder. And YOU get to see if adding a .1grn of powder is even worth it.

 

My biggest fear with going over max, as others have said, is the accuracy of your loading including your scale. 

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5 hours ago, USRifle30Cal said:

SoI get it.....

 

*but*, sometimes the inverse is true....start at MINIMUM and work your way up...AVOID MAX LOADS...

 

Until you are 1000000000% sure that everything else is spot on in spec...

 

Whats the headspace of your rifle, no wrong word....test gun?

Just an experience that happened recently. I was loading 45acp with CFE Pistol,  Hodgdon says w/ a 200gr SWC 7.4-8.2grs

So I'm no green horn....I load 7.8grs.  Toooo Hot!  Not blow up the gun hot but flat primers and not real tight groups.

But it's a 1911.  Don't like a steady diet of hot, plus I want a soft accurate load.   I go down to 7.4grs.  much better but a little stiffer than I want for quick follow up shots. accuracy pretty good.  Now I'm gonna drop another .2grs and dare not go below that.  I still have reasonable case volume so not too concerned. Essentially I consider reloading manuals a source/guide with loads that won't blow your face off. But, starting loads are there for a reason.

BTW my bullet selection and COL are within spec.

Just my $.02

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35 minutes ago, Greenday said:

I should have separated that. He shoots competition. He also has a Ruger American. Those two aren't related.

You still haven't made a case for chasing max...or answering what i think is a key question...

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38 minutes ago, Old School said:

Just an experience that happened recently. I was loading 45acp with CFE Pistol,  Hodgdon says w/ a 200gr SWC 7.4-8.2grs

So I'm no green horn....I load 7.8grs.  Toooo Hot!  Not blow up the gun hot but flat primers and not real tight groups.

But it's a 1911.  Don't like a steady diet of hot, plus I want a soft accurate load.   I go down to 7.4grs.  much better but a little stiffer than I want for quick follow up shots. accuracy pretty good.  Now I'm gonna drop another .2grs and dare not go below that.  I still have reasonable case volume so not too concerned. Essentially I consider reloading manuals a source/guide with loads that won't blow your face off. But, starting loads are there for a reason.

BTW my bullet selection and COL are within spec.

Just my $.02

Listen to the man there @Greenday....

 

@Old School.....  greenhorn and you are like comparing the new years eve baby and methuselah  

 

Lol

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11 minutes ago, Greenday said:

I never said I was so why would I make a case for it?

...ok......everything you typed had max in it...... 

 

Never mind......i am done....  gud luck....

 

Sheesh.....  

 

As a side note...you have 100's of years of experience here and you are nothing but combative...

 

..from a funny meme....

 

I have neither the time nor the crayons to explain this more to you....

 

 

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45 minutes ago, USRifle30Cal said:

...ok......everything you typed had max in it...... 

 

Never mind......i am done....  gud luck....

 

Sheesh.....  

 

As a side note...you have 100's of years of experience here and you are nothing but combative...

 

..from a funny meme....

 

I have neither the time nor the crayons to explain this more to you....

I posted one thing about how I wish I could use an instrument at work to determine how much pressure each different powder produces so I could figure out the true max load so I wouldn't ever hit it. That doesn't mean I'm just going for it. You took that and ran with it assuming I'm aiming for max every time.

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12 hours ago, Greenday said:

I'm not zeroing in on max loads. Just saying if that's just what works for that bullet with that powder in that case in my rifle, it'd be a benefit.

So let's take H335 which I bought recently on sale. For the SMK 52gr, I'll probably start around 26.2gr of H335. Then I'll make some at 26.7 and 25.7. Sierra lists max as 27.6. If 26.7 turns out to be the best of those three, I'll then bracket that with loads close. And if say 26.9gr is better, I'd slowly work upwards.

Why are you using h335 with such a light bullet? H335 is supposed to be used to mimic military loads. And starting at 26+ grains is over max recommended charge  from Hodgson's load data.

 

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10 hours ago, carl_g said:

Why are you using h335 with such a light bullet? H335 is supposed to be used to mimic military loads. And starting at 26+ grains is over max recommended charge  from Hodgson's load data.

 

Sierra lists 27.6 as max load for 52gr SMK.

As for why H335, because it's a versatile powder that works well for my 52gr, 69gr or 77gr SMK or for my 55gr Hornandy FMJBTs.

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7 minutes ago, Greenday said:

Sierra lists 27.6 as max load for 52gr SMK.

As for why H335, because it's a versatile powder that works well for my 52gr, 69gr or 77gr SMK or for my 55gr Hornandy FMJBTs.

Hodgdon does not list a 52gr on their site, but it does list a max for both 50gr and 53gr at 26gr of powder @52,000CUP. You are playing with fore exceeding 26gr of H335.

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On 9/7/2019 at 12:06 PM, JackDaWack said:

That's why I asked.... AFAIK, the reason match bullets are cheaper at low weights is because not many people use them... they seems to be on sale very often. 

Regardless, the barrel rate would suggest it shoots neither light or heavy bullets with optimal performance(at any range)... I understand mileage may vary... 

If your end goal is accuracy, which GD seems to be focused on, then it's a good point of discussion to consider... 

FYI, ive been getting match Hornady bullets from  https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com

 

 

Match bullets at low weights are cheap because they are used for varmint hunting, and they tend to be shot by the hunters in high volume. If you don't sell it in bulk at a reasonable price, you don't get those customers' money.  If you want to spend a weekend afternoon taking out a prairie dog town, you need to be able to hit the prairie dogs. But you also need to not spend a buck a piece to do it. 

There are pretty reasonably priced heavier match grade bullets. The hornady 68gr is pretty affordable. The nosler and sierra 77gr bullets are available in bulk and reasonably priced. But they will never be as cheap as the 50 & 52 gr OTM bullets simply because they cost more to make. 

 

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1 hour ago, JC_68Westy said:

Hodgdon does not list a 52gr on their site, but it does list a max for both 50gr and 53gr at 26gr of powder @52,000CUP. You are playing with fore exceeding 26gr of H335.

So Hodgdon lists their powder at 26gr max.

Sierra tested it on their bullet and says 27.6 is max.

Hornady for their bullet lists 25.4gr.

Barnes is 25.8gr.

Nosler 26gr.

Speer 24.5gr

Very interesting how they all differ and how Sierra is noticeably higher than the rest.

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23 hours ago, USRifle30Cal said:

@Greenday

 

Let me show you something.   Came from an old fellow that has recently died and he has been known to be a good reloader this is a 38 Super:

 

MN39r82.jpg

 

 

That is a case head blowout....that  Was shot in a full size Colt 1911 it also included a full mag blow out mag destruction and a face full of gas from the recoil ....

Max or over max is nothing to phuk around with....it can have disastrous results...

Did he mess up?  Was he loading for max?

Was he loading for power factor?

 

Who knows, but that was an overpressure round....  NONE of his old reloads can be trusted now.

All to be broken down over the winter for components...

 

I keep it on my bench to remind me, of what can go wrong

 

1) You NEVER, EVER trust other people's reloads if you are wise. If you do, you are rolling the dice.  I'll shoot other peoples pistol loads in their pistols, because it is unlikely it will do more than destroy their gun and sting a bit ( I don't tend to shoot magnum revolvers and such), but that is about it. 

2) The guy was shooitng .38 super. He's likely guilty of the same thing most of them are. Being cheap and reusing the brass too many times. 

As for greenday, I like calling out him being stupid as much as the next guy, but I read his response as not being he aims for max load, just that if he has a load that shoots well he'll bracket it and he needs to know the max so his bracket doesn't exceed max pressure. 

To me the real answer to that is if you are going to be anal, get a chrono and do ladder loads and be less arbitrary about it and don't dick around guessing. 

As for max loads, given that you can find wildly different answers to that in most loading guides, you  just have to pick the number you trust and sneak up on it slow and gentle like.  Me, I just go buy the load data published by the manufacturer  for when I purchased the powder. It's likely current for any formulation change, and conservative. 

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, raz-0 said:

1) You NEVER, EVER trust other people's reloads if you are wise. If you do, you are rolling the dice.  I'll shoot other peoples pistol loads in their pistols, because it is unlikely it will do more than destroy their gun and sting a bit ( I don't tend to shoot magnum revolvers and such), but that is about it. 

2) The guy was shooitng .38 super. He's likely guilty of the same thing most of them are. Being cheap and reusing the brass too many times. 

As for greenday, I like calling out him being stupid as much as the next guy, but I read his response as not being he aims for max load, just that if he has a load that shoots well he'll bracket it and he needs to know the max so his bracket doesn't exceed max pressure. 

To me the real answer to that is if you are going to be anal, get a chrono and do ladder loads and be less arbitrary about it and don't dick around guessing. 

As for max loads, given that you can find wildly different answers to that in most loading guides, you  just have to pick the number you trust and sneak up on it slow and gentle like.  Me, I just go buy the load data published by the manufacturer  for when I purchased the powder. It's likely current for any formulation change, and conservative. 

 

 

 

Sadly i did, and that has been my mantra, except for this one and look what happens - I will take all old reloads and go on component scavenging, dumping the powder of course.

 

*BUT* I trusted this guy - trusted the notes - but these things do sneak up on you without QC in place.

 

My main thing with @Greenday, is I am not sure that a new reloader should even considered getting anywhere near max.

 

There are too many variables at play with high pressure rifle rounds - primer depth, case resizing (hence my questions about his rifles head space, which has gone unanswered) is his case resized to SAAMI spec exact, above or below - how that plays into this rifles chamber is important - his bullet seating depth - his accuracy of his scale etc.  Is he even using the right data for the right powder etc.

 

I would say that starting at min and of course working up makes the most sense - but all things being equal if you cannot tick off all the other boxes as either knowing the information, making sure it is in spec etc. - going anywhere near max is silly.

 

Maybe I read his posts wrong but I inferred that he was trying to find as close to max accurate load - the operative word being max.

 

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Greenday said:

So Hodgdon lists their powder at 26gr max.

Sierra tested it on their bullet and says 27.6 is max.

Hornady for their bullet lists 25.4gr.

Barnes is 25.8gr.

Nosler 26gr.

Speer 24.5gr

Very interesting how they all differ and how Sierra is noticeably higher than the rest.

Sierra is always higher in general as they are more aggressive. But you also have to keep in mind the bullet involved in the testing. The other thing is that I wouldn't trust old sierra data. They make a business out of being aggressive with loads, and selling yo that info every year. The ragged edge may move. 

Hodgdon doesn't HAVE a listing for a 52gr bullet for h335. It does have one for a 53gr sierra hollow point that is 26gr max.  It's probably safe to extrapolate that to a 52gr, but only if the bearing surface is similar. Something like a nosler 60gr partition in .224 has a relatively large bearing surface compared to other 60gr offerings. In that case, it's probably safe to use the max load for that bullet with other longer and less chubby 60gr bullets. Which is exactly what nosler did with their load data. Their 60gr varmint bullet uses that load data. In reality, it likely the varmint round likely has less bearing surface than the hornady 60gr v-max (noslers is a boat tail, hornady's is flat bottmed). borrowing load data form teh v-max is likely safe as well. (and it is, I've used it and shot it without issue). 

Barnes' max load is going to be lower because they are coppper alloy projectiles. They take up more case volume per grain of bullet. 

 

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Interesting. I've got both Hornady's latest manual and Sierra's 6th edition that recently came out. I've been choosing based on whose bullet I've been using.

One thing else I've definitely noticed is that you also have to check which rifle they used. Twist rates and barrel lengths are often drastically different from mine. Plus I'm using a 5.56 chamber instead of .223 which shouldn't make a huge difference but still.

I guess I'll have to start looking at the consensus loads and start lower. Then if I have to go higher, just slowly work up and look for signs of too much pressure.

Still excited to break out my new chrono. Need to get to an outdoor range so I can use it. But if I'm going to travel over an hour to Range 14, I gotta make it worth it.

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34 minutes ago, Greenday said:

I guess I'll have to start looking at the consensus loads and start lower. Then if I have to go higher, just slowly work up and look for signs of too much pressure.

 

:clapping:

 

The most sensible statement you have made to date - 

Brass Pressure signs - *beyond* the chrono:

Image result for Brass high pressure signs rifle

 

Image result for Brass high pressure signs rifle

 

Image result for Brass high pressure signs 5.56

 

Image result for Brass high pressure signs 5.56

Image result for Brass high pressure signs 5.56

 

Image result for rifle case next spilt pressure

 

Related image

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