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hoping I put this in the right place...…

 
 
 
 

 

I got out to the range today. only the 2nd time this year. it sucks working so dam much.

anyway….my beretta 92fs. the thing was stovepiping every or every other round. sometimes there would be failure to feed, sometimes failure to eject, and sometimes it would seem to jam with the loading round partially cocked otw into the chamber. it's been about a year since I've taken this one out. last time out, I cleaned and oiled it after shooting, then put it away. I noticed that when i'd rack the slide, I could see a ever so slight hesitation in the next round chambering. i'm gonna pull it apart later tonight, or tomorrow night after I finish putting my kitchen back together. it did this with every single mag. all of them were made in Italy beretta mags. when I pull it apart, is there anything in particular I should be looking for to cause this?

 

second question.....my ar. the one i'm gonna be using for 3gun(if I can ever get my ass down to quinton again). it's chambered 5.56nato, 1/7 twist, 16" barrel including the muzzle brake. i'm running a burris fullfield lrs 1-4x30.

I zeroed this thing a couple months ago at 25 yards. at 25 and 50 yards, she's pretty much on. when o moved over to the 100 yard lanes, I was high. like shooting a "Q" target in the neck area when holding my sight on center mass.

now I thought with ar's that a 25yard zero would put you on the money at 100 yards also? to get the rounds onto center mass of the Q target I had to hold low. put center mass between the top of the vertical "T" and the center circle in the scope.

 

so...….am I doing something wrong here? I was running 55gr .223 through it even though it's chambered for 5.56.

 
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9 minutes ago, 1LtCAP said:

hoping I put this in the right place...…..

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I got out to the range today. only the 2nd time this year. it sucks working so dam much.

anyway….my beretta 92fs. the thing was stovepiping every or every other round. sometimes there would be failure to feed, sometimes failure to eject, and sometimes it would seem to jam with the loading round partially cocked otw into the chamber. it's been about a year since I've taken this one out. last time out, I cleaned and oiled it after shooting, then put it away. I noticed that when i'd rack the slide, I could see a ever so slight hesitation in the next round chambering. i'm gonna pull it apart later tonight, or tomorrow night after I finish putting my kitchen back together. it did this with every single mag. all of them were made in Italy beretta mags. when I pull it apart, is there anything in particular I should be looking for to cause this?

 

second question.....my ar. the one i'm gonna be using for 3gun(if I can ever get my ass down to quinton again). it's chambered 5.56nato, 1/7 twist, 16" barrel including the muzzle brake. i'm running a burris fullfield lrs 1-4x30.

I zeroed this thing a couple months ago at 25 yards. at 25 and 50 yards, she's pretty much on. when o moved over to the 100 yard lanes, I was high. like shooting a "Q" target in the neck area when holding my sight on center mass.

now I thought with ar's that a 25yard zero would put you on the money at 100 yards also? to get the rounds onto center mass of the Q target I had to hold low. put center mass between the top of the vertical "T" and the center circle in the scope.

 

so...….am I doing something wrong here? I was running 55gr .223 through it even though it's chambered for 5.56.

 
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So for the 92fs I'd say give it a good clean and check the parts maybe a bad spring or something else. It also could be bad ammo at times. For the AR that one is easy to answer zero moves with distance. If you have ever seen an old military surplus gun they have sliding ladders for distances like 100m, 200m, 300m, etc. I would recommend to zero it at a distance were it will be ok for what you need it to do. A 25 yard and at 100 yards the zeros are different. Why you might ask. I'll put a picture in this comment and hopefully it makes sense

40f30529b94c3d78d973b1c2a734c623.jpg

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As others have mentioned, depends on goals.

Based on my ballistics calc, if you had a zero at 25 yards that was accurate,  a 55 grain 2600 fps velocity bullet is going to be .74 mils high at 100 and .12 mils high at 200.  So that is 2.664" at 100 and .432" at 200.

a 25/200 Zero is going to be good enough as a "point blank zero" for anywhere between 0 and 200 yards or so.  With that zero, you are .73 mils or about 7.5" low at 300 so in a hunting situation (under that distance) or gun games where you are shooting IPSC sized targets or larger steel targets, just hold center and shoot, as long as your gun can hold 1 moa should be no need to dope the scope. Or realistically just hold over the reticle versus clicking. 

This is also why the "wundercalibers" like 6.5 CM and others are popular... they are flatter so your effective hold zero distance can be expanded.   Have to get my range cards out but this is why shooting the 6.5 PRC,  Was not even doping the scope out to 350 or 400 yards.  Flat and fast with high BC bullets.  

Best recommendation for any gun owner getting into gun games or reloading is get a chrono, a decent one is $100, and get any of the free ballistics apps like those by Hornady, Lapua and others.  I LOVE the Hornady app, it is free and lets you save guns, loads, etc. 

And as @High Exposure mentioned, there are lots of other variables such as elevation, humidity, temperature and of course the types of ammo/powders.

Many of the powders are temperature sensitive and that will affect velocity which will impact point of impact and your dope.  

Realistically,  you REALLY need a chrono because everything else is theoretical.  The velocities written on the box are NOT for your gun but are generally for 24" barrels.

Best example of this was shooting same loads out of 1 26" 308 barrel and another gun with a 20" barrel with a brake.  Difference in velocity was almost 100 fps from the same load. (42 grains of 8208 XBR, 168 Hornady BTHP). 

Once you have your gun's velocity for that ammo, you can use the free ballistics apps and get the guns dopes... then you go and true that.  

(but by all means I am not an expert at this... coming from reloading for many years for pistol loads and then a 4 day intensive long range shooting class in Texas shooting out to 2500 yards.  Part of what we were doing there is truing the guns and seeing how accurate the ballistics apps and cards were for the gun).  And quite frankly for most shooters at 300 yards or less it won't make a difference anyway. 

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my purpose for this rifle is to get me into the 3guns that louu has down at quinton. I made 1 awhile ago. I tried that one with an eotech on this rifle. to say that was a poor idea is an understatement. 

 the attached is where I had to hold. both of these were with the scope zoomed in. 

sight1.jpg

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2 hours ago, mjhvn said:

The 50 yard zero is said to be the best for all around but it really depends on his application and purpose for the rifle. I like 50 yards.

i'll hafta re-do my zero. or just re-check it. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Zeke said:

Close enough for government work 

It’s not if you don’t confirm your zero at distances you are likely to engage a target at.

It can be off quite a bit.

If your using your rifle in a defensive role as life saving equipment and take a 200 yard shot thinking “your good” because you are dead-nuts-on at 50 yards, you are fucked up.

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33 minutes ago, High Exposure said:

It’s not if you don’t confirm your zero at distances you are likely to engage a target at.

It can be off quite a bit.

If your using your rifle in a defensive role as life saving equipment and take a 200 yard shot thinking “your good” because you are dead-nuts-on at 50 yards, you are fucked up.

Life saving equipment at 200 yards?  I understand if we are talking about being in a warzone BUT if we are talking about defensive use of a rifle for most people, 3 inch difference in POI is not going to make a difference if you are aiming center mass at 10 yards.  Or am I missing something?

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1 hour ago, Maksim said:

Life saving equipment at 200 yards?  I understand if we are talking about being in a warzone BUT if we are talking about defensive use of a rifle for most people, 3 inch difference in POI is not going to make a difference if you are aiming center mass at 10 yards.  Or am I missing something?

That's kinda what I was thinking too? Zombie shots at 200 yards? Taking out a neighbor down the street at 200 yards? Didn't think so.

Most defensive uses would be even inside the 50 yard mark, or 10 or less like you mentioned.

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Not everyone uses their rifles in the same way or for the same reasons. 

Flat absolute statements of “good enough” may not  be for some folks. 

Just because you don’t have the need to take a shot at 200 or longer doesn’t mean someone else doesn’t. 

We need to stop assuming everyone has the same frame of reference.

The truth is a 50 yard zero does not always equal a 200 yard zero and if you are looking for the ability to make a 200 yard precision shot, which is something the AR platform is completely capable of, you need to confirm at distance.

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3 hours ago, High Exposure said:

Just because you don’t have the need to take a shot at 200 or longer doesn’t mean someone else doesn’t. 

We need to stop assuming everyone has the same frame of reference.

You mean just like with weapon lights? :scratchhead:

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14 hours ago, 1LtCAP said:

my purpose for this rifle is to get me into the 3guns that louu has down at quinton. I made 1 awhile ago. I tried that one with an eotech on this rifle. to say that was a poor idea is an understatement. 

 the attached is where I had to hold. both of these were with the scope zoomed in. 

sight1.jpg

Tbh with your built in hold overs you may want 100 zero and confirm holdovers. 1st dot 150 , 2nd 200 etc.

under zero poa v poi will be lower sight center to bore center.

the 92 is probably toast, you should jus give it to me for $1:8):

 

 

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10 hours ago, Zeke said:

Tbh with your built in hold overs you may want 100 zero and confirm holdovers. 1st dot 150 , 2nd 200 etc.

under zero poa v poi will be lower sight center to bore center.

the 92 is probably toast, you should jus give it to me for $1:8):

 

 

ha!! nice try!

 

 I think the light came on. by setting zero so close, the bullet's still climbing when it reaches 100 yards. if I zero at 100 yards, it'll have a flatter trajectory./ 

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On 5/19/2019 at 10:53 PM, High Exposure said:

If your using your rifle in a defensive role as life saving equipment and take a 200 yard shot thinking “your good” because you are dead-nuts-on at 50 yards, you are fucked up.

I'm even more f'ed up if I think I am only taking one shot in a life saving situation. I'm spraying bullets from my clip and using the shoulder thing that goes up. I might even attach a bayonet. 

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6 hours ago, Handyman said:

I'm even more f'ed up if I think I am only taking one shot in a life saving situation. I'm spraying bullets from my clip and using the shoulder thing that goes up. I might even attach a bayonet. 

Don't forget your sidearm. 

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Yeah so for 3 gun matches.  Usually at quinton or old bridge.  Where they usually have an accuracy shoot at 100 y.  I keep my dope set at 100 yards.  The closer shots i just hold over about 2-3”.  You can always just know your dope and adjust for the stage.  Its usually just one stage you need to be adjusted for 100 yards. 

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On 5/20/2019 at 10:36 PM, 1LtCAP said:

ha!! nice try!

 

 I think the light came on. by setting zero so close, the bullet's still climbing when it reaches 100 yards. if I zero at 100 yards, it'll have a flatter trajectory./ 

Sort of, but not really.  You'll just be "pre-compensating" for the physics involved.

Given everything else in the equation remains the same (bullet weight, manufacturer, powder weight, powder brand, temp., wind, barrel length, rate of twist, etc., trajectory also remains a constant.  There isn't any "magic" to flatten it out by doping the sights differently.  The round will always react exactly as it should.  The rifleman overcomes these obstacles of physics (which are always present) through understanding & training.  High Exposure is correct.  Nothing is to "be assumed" just cause a chart says so.

The Battle of Adobe Wells was decided by a single round from a borrowed .50-90 Black Powder Cartridge Trap Door Springfield rifle.  Billy Dixon & friends were surrounded by 200+ Indians on horseback.  Dixon fired a "Hail Mary" shot at a mounted Indian from more than 1400 yards away.  Using nothing but guesswork & luck.  That round arched its' way into the Indian (and the History Books) within sight of the Chief, and the Indian fell dead off his mount.  The Chief, upon seeing this, said that was "mighty medicine" they can't fight, and ordered his 200 mounts to disengage.  Dixon did it with a hangover & no sleep.

Keep in mind that 3-Gun stage designers are somewhat diabolical.  If you have to shoot your rifle from behind or thru a pallet (for instance), you'll need to know HOW to compensate for a 90* turn of the rifle to clear the muzzle.  That requires learning how to shoot w/o a bench.  Knowing what yer tools do PRIOR to a match lets you educate yourself AND gives you the confidence you need to succeed.

Good luck & may you LEARN THINGS!

~R 

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For 3 gun work, especially with a 16" barrel, a 50 yard zero with a ballistic calculator and a CHRONO will get you pretty far 0-200.  Or if you shoot a decent bulk m193 equivalent you can even kind of forgo the chrono. 

If you plan on going out much past 200, get your 200 confirmation as HE said. 

The 50 yard zero is less awesome for 14.5" or 20" barrels. It can work pretty well with a rifle length 18" barrel provided it's not a super fast barrel. 

That being said, I'd never bother with a  25 yard zero unless it was baby steps to a better zero or it was a 25 yard rimfire rifle set up for 25 yard accuracy work specifically. At 25 yards, one MOA is just barely over 1/4". A group that is a touching clover leaf from a .223 gun is basically a 2 moa group. 

Add to that that the tac30 reticle is basically a 2moa center dot at 4x.  THat's what you drew, that' NOT going to net out to what you described which is a POA of center mass on a Q target with a POI of the next. On a full size Q that's about 11-12" by my best estimation. 

Based on your notes on the reticle, your POI is about 4MOA above you POA. If you zeroed at 25 with a group that was literally a three hole cloverleaf, but it was hitting at the top of your center dot. The center dot and the clover leaf could cover up to ~3MOA of shooter error while looking prety much spot on.  If "pretty much on" to you means within half an inch, while now you could be up to 5MOA off and think you are good to go. 

When zeroing, IMO, you need to zero at a distance where minimum unit of resolution is smaller than your minimum unit of giving a shit. 

For example, my scope's smallest dimension on the reticle where I can aim is .5MOA. That is defacto my floor for being able to aim. At 50 yards, the size of a bullet hole is about .5MOA. Chasing <.5moa gorups with that scope is a waste of time, effort, and ammo. And at closer than 50 yards, the bullet is basically bigger than my point of aim.  So  I want to go for .5 MOA, I need to be shooting for a zero at at LEAST 50 yards. Because .5moa at that range is a barely enlarged bullet hole for a .223 gun. 

Assuming you are shooting m193 neighborhood bulk 55gr FMJ, I took the velocity form one of my middle of the road 16" barrels, based on the ballistics by the inch tests, I whacked 150fps off of it for a 14.5" barrel. Plugged in a 25 yard zero for my calculator and I get 5.5 MOA high at 100 yards for a dead on .25 yard zero. 

So with the "resolution" issues I described plus the straight up ballistics, you could be off 8.5 MOA at 100 yards. 

And just double checking, that';s for a red dot mount I had. Flat top + say 30mm ADM recon-x mount you'd be at 6.8MOA high at 100 with a dead on zero. You may be as much as 9.8 moa high at 100 if you have "resolution" problems. (at 100 that is 10.2", so we are headed into the ralm of what you saw on the Q target). 

With a significant height over bore to overcome (which you ahve with pretty much and LPVO and a mount), a 25 yard zero is a PITA and just garbage. Don't do it IMO. 

You can either re-do it at 50, which would put you about 1.6" high at 100, and .5" high at 200, and about 8" low at 300. So your first holdover dot would be about 325 yards, your second about 397 yards, third about 455 and the ole in the outer ring would be about 540. Close in you'd shoot aiming just below the center dot at 25 (i.e you are compensating for sight offset and holding high). 

Redo it at 100, and at 50, you put the center dot just below your POI (i.e. dot the i hold ). At 25 you'd be somewhere on the upper post. At 75  put the dot on it, at 100 put the dot on it. At 200 put the bottom of the dot on it. First holdover dot is about 280. Second is about 360, third is about 440, hole in the ring is about 515. 

 

 

 

 

 

If you just adjusted at 100 and made that your zero, 

 

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