Anyone heard about this?

[High Exposure 5,662]

 

29 minutes ago, 0Jeep4 said:

So in theory, this thing could have a normal removable muzzle device? and adjustable stock? Considering it’s no longer designated as a rifle do the “evil feathers” no longer have a role ? 

No. It can’t have ever have had any kind of stock. Then it would be an SBR. And you can’t remove the forward grip, that would make it a pistol.

[vjf915 456]

9 hours ago, Maksim said:

Are we talking the pistol brace thing?

So that is not the central issue here... it is that this gun was made with the forward vertical grip, thus "Designed" to be fired two hands... much like that "Brace" was not designed to be fired off of the shoulder.

For NJ, this non-AOW status basically tries to thread a very small hole where it is not a pistol, not a rifle, and not an AOW.  So not subject to the pistol weight limit.

Of course, what I think this will do is simply cause 1 of 2 things to happen...

1. NJ redefines these guns and sneaks it into the next set of bills.

2. Gets ATF off their ass and shut down the whole "pistol" thing... which would be bad.

In any case, this will be a bigger issue in NJ than when NJSP said an M1 Carbine clone was okay... until it wasn't. 

Just a matter of time until an SBR with a vertical fore grip is seen as precisely as that. lol.

But yes... I believe to own one of these... it needs to be purchased... rather than built....

Is the handguard not meant to be held when firing?  Adding the VFG and then saying it's designed to be fired with two hands is a cheaper excuse than the braces are.  You're still shouldering the brace, who cares whether you grab the VFG or the handguard?

Also, is it possible to transfer something as a "firearm" in NJ?  I mean at this point all you guys have to go on is someone on Reddit saying they know someone in the NJSP.  Doesn't sound incredibly legitimate so far.

Just want to add that I'm all for this.  If NJ gets to enjoy the same freedoms as the rest of the country, then that's great.  I'm simply playing devil's advocate to try and question all angles,

35 minutes ago, 0Jeep4 said:

So in theory, this thing could have a normal removable muzzle device? and adjustable stock? Considering it’s no longer designated as a rifle do the “evil feathers” no longer have a role ? 

Yes, it could have any of the evil features normally associated with rifles in NJ.  That means the magazine limit still applies.

ETA:  Sorry, I missed that you said "stock".  You would be able to have an adjustable brace though.

[124gr9mm 859]

9 hours ago, Maksim said:

Are we talking the pistol brace thing?

So that is not the central issue here... it is that this gun was made with the forward vertical grip, thus "Designed" to be fired two hands... much like that "Brace" was not designed to be fired off of the shoulder.

For NJ, this non-AOW status basically tries to thread a very small hole where it is not a pistol, not a rifle, and not an AOW.  So not subject to the pistol weight limit.

Of course, what I think this will do is simply cause 1 of 2 things to happen...

1. NJ redefines these guns and sneaks it into the next set of bills.

2. Gets ATF off their ass and shut down the whole "pistol" thing... which would be bad.

In any case, this will be a bigger issue in NJ than when NJSP said an M1 Carbine clone was okay... until it wasn't. 

Just a matter of time until an SBR with a vertical fore grip is seen as precisely as that. lol.

 

But yes... I believe to own one of these... it needs to be purchased... rather than built....

 

Yes, I could definitely see these falling into the "suddenly illegal" category. 

[0Jeep4 87]

Yeah sorry I definitely used the wrong terminology, but I believe you guys understood what I was attempting to ask.  I feel like many others do and if this is legal as we speak. Our good friends in Trenton are probably already drafting the law to make sure it soon isn’t. 

[JackDaWack 2,895]

12 hours ago, Ray Ray said:

1200 dollars for a gun I could put together for half the price.

So build one... I'm sure people in the state already have. 

 

Until NJ changes the law, i believe a blank receiver can be used. The ATF letters really paved the way for this, and NJ's own stupid laws that clearly define pistols and rifles. 

 

[0Jeep4 87]

2 minutes ago, JackDaWack said:

So build one... I'm sure people in the state already have. 

Would Need to have a receiver transferred as a “firearm” if you did this to an already purchased receiver it’s most likely labled rifle per NJSP and the transfer forums.(You’d definitely run into some legal issues) Read through the comments I mentioned this previously. Unless your advocating law breaking, and at that point I say fuck it and just build an SBR if your feeling frogy. 

[JackDaWack 2,895]

4 minutes ago, 0Jeep4 said:

Would Need to have a receiver transferred as a “firearm” if you did this to an already purchased receiver it’s most likely labled rifle per NJSP and the transfer forums.(You’d definitely run into some legal issues) Read through the comments I mentioned this previously. Unless your advocating law breaking, and at that point I say fuck it and just build an SBR if your feeling frogy. 

We had a thread about this almost a year ago. A receiver is transferred as a receiver, not a pistol, not a rifle not a Firearm or AOW. Im not advocating for breaking the law, in fact im saying follow it and build one. Hell, ask ANY FFL what they transfer a receiver as.

 

[0Jeep4 87]

7 minutes ago, JackDaWack said:

We had a thread about this almost a year ago. A receiver is transferred as a receiver, not a pistol, not a rifle not a Firearm or AOW. Im not advocating for breaking the law, in fact im saying follow it and build one. Hell, ask ANY FFL what they transfer a receiver as.

 

I apologize because I was unsure of how a receiver was transferred. I asked that question earlier in this thread and the only response agreed with me, being transferd as a rifle. 

I agree with you. I believe the innovation of the gun industry, by forcing them to legally define these types of products individually was able to force their hand so to speak. 

[JackDaWack 2,895]

I prefer if the NJSP dont release a letter on this. IMO it will  bring too much attention to the legality of such a device. Good things go to die when people start asking the government if xyz  is legal?

5 minutes ago, 0Jeep4 said:

I apologize because I was unsure of how a receiver was transferred. I asked that question earlier in this thread and the only response agreed with me, being transferd as a rifle. 

I originally thought the same as you, and many people corrected me. When i picked up my last lower my FFL confirmed as well. 

[JackDaWack 2,895]

11 hours ago, Maksim said:

I am just wondering how many of the people buying these will be 100% able to explain why it is not a rifle, not a pistol or an AOW. =P 

Realistically, that is what the ATF letters are for. 

One details: a pistol brace is not a stock

Second: if it is over 26" oal, a vertical grip can be added and maintain non-nfa and is not classified as a pistol

Maintain that the firearm was purchased that way, or built from receiver. 

ATF Letter on Stabilizing Braces and how they can be shouldered

This article about adding VFGs to AR pistols contains the ATF letter outlining how to construct a non-NFA firearm on pages 2-3 

This contains the NJSP letter to the FFLs detailing the legality of the 590 Shockwave and Tac 14.

Nothing in NJ law contradicts any of this either. If it was never a rifle or shotgun, it cant be "sawed-off". and NJ's very definitions cannot consider it pistol or rifle. I try not to publicize where the actual loophole is here, because fuck em and let them figure out how to change the law. 

[Maksim 1,504]

6 minutes ago, JackDaWack said:

Realistically, that is what the ATF letters are for. 

One details: a pistol brace is not a stock

Second: if it is over 26" oal, a vertical grip can be added and maintain non-nfa and is not classified as a pistol

Maintain that the firearm was purchased that way, or built from receiver. 

ATF Letter on Stabilizing Braces and how they can be shouldered

This article about adding VFGs to AR pistols contains the ATF letter outlining how to construct a non-NFA firearm on pages 2-3 

This contains the NJSP letter to the FFLs detailing the legality of the 590 Shockwave and Tac 14.

Correct but as we know, those ATF letters don't really mean squat anymore considering how many times did ATF flip flop on braces?

How many times did ATF flip flop on bump stocks?

And of course... there is Trump who is not really pro-gun and will at any time say.... "No, I am not a fan of (insert popular gun theme)."

The thing is... just like the bump stocks, the pistol braces and these "non-nfa" type guns are flaunting it in the face of ATF.

The more manufacturers and the industry flaunt it as an "FU" and a way of getting around existing laws... which look, we are all adults here, it is, the more likely this will get flaunted.

And of course manufacturers and dealers who are about the here and now will publicly push them... 

For manufacturers it is the same parts just in a different configuration so they are not losing anything and can make it a different gun.

Just like Slidefire and others... it was about making as much as possible before the eventual slapdown.

This is very much different than when 10 years ago or so now, a few dealers were pushing the M1 Carbine clone.

 

In any case, I am wondering why even as a Non-NFA... it is only good for CT and NJ... and not CA, NY, and other states.... how are their laws worded?

Quite frankly, these guns are cool... BUT I don't see too many people having the balls to go out and publicly shooting these as civillians with lots of stuff to lose.  Of course, if you are LEO or an FFL with a pink card your limits for questionable are going to be much higher.

With a pretty easily identifyable flash suppressor, pistol brace and SBR configuration, this gun is too much "Look at me, Arrest me Red" sports car.

I think I would rather take a risk with standard capacity pistol mags instead. lol. 

[JackDaWack 2,895]

I don't see it as flaunting in the face of the ATF, per say. They wrote the damn letters. 

I do agree that if enough attention is given, that the letters could change, and the ATF could flip again. or worse yet, get new legislation passed. 

I couldn't say about the other states. The issue here is that you need a few laws to align just right for it to fall into the legal category. definitions of rifle, pistol, assault rifles or sawed off, length requirements, banned accessories* 

I wouldn't, even with a letter from the NJSP,  bring one even to a private range. The attention brought to this issues is counter productive.   

 

[0Jeep4 87]

1 hour ago, Maksim said:

I don't see too many people having the balls to go out and publicly shooting these as civillians with lots of stuff to lose.  Of course, if you are LEO or an FFL with a pink card your limits for questionable are going to be much higher.

With a pretty easily identifyable flash suppressor, pistol brace and SBR configuration, this gun is too much "Look at me, Arrest me Red" sports car.

This, I can easily articulate why this weapon is legal, but honestly knowing a lot of cops (family and friends). I’m more versed in basic law and case law than most of them, and that’s where the problem would start. You ever attempt to tell a cop he’s wrong even when they are it’s not a worth while venture. (Not an attempt to bash any LEOs) Just stating first hand experiences. 

[vladtepes 1,060]

11 hours ago, sota said:

The moment @remixer says he'll transfer a stripped lower as "firearm" and I can build one of these on my own, I'm down for 3 lowers.

also, anyone got a link to 3" or longer not-a-suppressor cans?

what if hypothetically someone in another state like PA made one of these as a pistol.. which is legal... decided all of the sudden they didn't like it.. and transferred it to a NJ FFL.. would the NJ FFL then be able to transfer it correctly?

[carl_g 568]

So if you have a lower that was transferred as “Other” you can build one of these? In PA? I don’t care about the NJ legalities.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

14 minutes ago, vladtepes said:

what if hypothetically someone in another state like PA made one of these as a pistol.. which is legal... decided all of the sudden they didn't like it.. and transferred it to a NJ FFL.. would the NJ FFL then be able to transfer it correctly?

I doubt an NJ FFL would touch it. It cant be classified as a pistol, if it were over 26" with the ATF outlined features it could technically be transferred, but i still don't think they would. 

[PK90 3,570]

Where were all you people on the FA discussion?

IMHO, it is neither a pistol, shotgun, rifle, long gun, handgun,  etc. It is a firearm, transferable as an other on the 4473 and listed as a pistol-grip firearm in the dealer's book. Also, it is not subject to the NJ AW Ban.

The issue is how it is transferred. I assume using a COE with a FPID to a 21+ YOA, as the shockwave is per the NJSP. Now, absent an approval letter from the NJAG or the NJSP FIU, this is all conjecture. 

As to being built as a pistol or rifle then coming into NJ, it doesn't matter. Example, Subject 1 buys a rifle then strips it down and sells the lower. Subject 2 builds a short pistol from the lower not knowing the original configuration and sells it as a pistol. Subject 3 buys it and puts a vertical front grip on it and makes it 26" OAL. He sells it to a NJ Resident as a non-NFA Pistol-grip Firearm. All legal.

[JohnnyB 4,324]

I just looked at the COE I got from my FFL two days ago when I last picked up a lower. There is a box for "Action" where he put "semi strp lwr" but nothing on this form shows "type of weapon".  That's just the COE though. I don't know what he tells NICS or what he writes in his book!

[PK90 3,570]

3 minutes ago, JohnnyB said:

I just looked at the COE I got from my FFL two days ago when I last picked up a lower. There is a box for "Action" where he put "semi strp lwr" but nothing on this form shows "type of weapon".  That's just the COE though. I don't know what he tells NICS or what he writes in his book!

Why does it have to be a semi? Stupid dealer. Action should have been just "receiver".

[vladtepes 1,060]

25 minutes ago, carl_g said:

So if you have a lower that was transferred as “Other” you can build one of these? In PA? I don’t care about the NJ legalities.

can't you make an AR pistol anyway? I think if it has a brace you don't even need to worry about all this.. minus the front grip of course.. 

[0Jeep4 87]

4 minutes ago, PK90 said:

Why does it have to be a semi? Stupid dealer. Action should have been just "receiver".

I just looked over all my receiver transfers and all the actions are marked “semi” also. (not going to throw the FFL under the bus just yet) 

[JohnnyB 4,324]

1 minute ago, PK90 said:

Why does it have to be a semi? Stupid dealer.

The instructions for the block say " Action (pump, lever,semi-automatic, bolt, etc.)  Should he put "other"? Again, this is just the COE.

[carl_g 568]

3 minutes ago, vladtepes said:

can't you make an AR pistol anyway? I think if it has a brace you don't even need to worry about all this.. minus the front grip of course.. 

Yes.. come to think of it that was a stupid question lol

[vladtepes 1,060]

Just now, carl_g said:

Yes.. come to think of it that was a stupid question lol

my SBR started its life as a pistol before the whole brace thing was a thing.. completely PA legal.. 

1 minute ago, carl_g said:

Yes.. come to think of it that was a stupid question lol

just to add.. with it being a pistol.. you can technically carry it around.. loaded.. 

apparently you can do the same with the SBR but need a stamp.. my 7.5in AR has a LAW tactical folder.. which gives me a 5.56 carbine that fits in my backpack and can be carried.. 

[PK90 3,570]

1 hour ago, JohnnyB said:

The instructions for the block say " Action (pump, lever,semi-automatic, bolt, etc.)  Should he put "other"? Again, this is just the COE.

Stupid NJ. The form should say "type". That is what ATF goes by. Or it could ask for "action" and "type".

If one bought a Remington 1100, does the dealer list semi-auto, which means nothing, or does he list shotgun, which is the correct term? He could list semi-auto shotgun, which is covers both. But a receiver or frame has no action, therefore it is a receiver or frame. And caliber should be "none". "Multi" is also acceptable. 

[vladtepes 1,060]

16 minutes ago, PK90 said:

Stupid NJ. The form should say "type". That is what ATF goes by. Or it could ask for "action" and "type".

If one bought a Remington 1100, does the dealer list semi-auto, which means nothing, or does he list shotgun, which is the correct term? He could list semi-auto shotgun, which is covers both. But a receiver or frame has no action, therefore it is a receiver or frame. And caliber should be "none". "Multi" is also acceptable. 

an AR15 lower could technically become a not semi auto firearm.. so it is really stupid.. 

[SgtToadette 59]

16 hours ago, vjf915 said:

Am I missing something here?  (Most of) the rest of the country has been doing this for a couple years now.

You are not missing anything. People have been doing this since pistol braces were a thing. It's only newish to NJ as a result of the Shockwave ruling from the NJSP, which creates an inference that these would be kosher, too.

[PK90 3,570]

SHOW ME THE LETTERRRRRRR!!!!!!

[ChrisJM981 924]

On 6/14/2019 at 6:46 PM, GramGun79 said:

seems like these are coming to a NJ dealer near you...https://www.dark-storm.com/dsi/ds-15/ds-15-typhoon-rifles/dark-storm-ds-15-non-nfa-firearm-typhoon-5.56-black/

Dark Storm has 15 rounds for NJ mag capacity listed on their site. I'd want to see a letter before I buy one. Just saying. 

[JT Custom Guns 956]

23 hours ago, 0Jeep4 said:

Okay so now the real question is how does one get a receiver transferred to themselves labeled “firearm”. Last I check receiver in nj only transfer as rifles I thought. 

Lower receivers are transferred as a "frame" (other) - Not a Rifle, not a pistol.

4473 = Frame

COE = says "To be used for Rifle or Shotgun" but NJSP wants then filled out for frames a well.........