Anyone heard about this?

[Blank 60]

Just now, JackDaWack said:

YOU said you received clarification from them?

I'm simply asking what the question proposed was and the specific response. 

 

I cannot find anything in NJ's firearms laws that even remotely comes close to it being illegal to assemble a "firearm" from a receiver.  Why would I ask them a question if the law clearly doesn't show a conflict in assembling one? 

 

Yes Sir. The answer i have for you is that according to the law it HAS to be registered as a "OTHER FIREARM" or "FIREARM" If you have a Stripped Lower it is registered as a "LOWER" and not a "FIREARM" That is all the information i have at this time. That is why i posted the State Police information so you can get clarification directly from the authority. I am trying to help this is what was told to us.

Thanks...

[shooter28 153]

Let’s have everyone keep the attitudes in check. If that’s what MM was told, then that’s what he was told. Maybe the officer misspoke. Maybe MM misheard. Maybe NJ is grasping at some weird law that may or may not be correct. We all have the contact info so we can find out more. Let’s not get in a pissing match with each other- we’re on the same side

[0Jeep4 87]

24 minutes ago, Modern Materiel said:

I dont know bro that was in the letter to us. I will see if i can get something official i can post for everyone. Ill see what i can find out.

I know it’s not you. I’m just trying to understand it from a legal standpoint. If I built it using the same parts etc. but this is NJ and I’m okay with having to buy a completed one. Was eyeing your guys stuff couldn’t justify another AR, but this thing in 9mm. Sign me up 

[Blank 60]

1 minute ago, 0Jeep4 said:

I know it’s not you. I’m just trying to understand it from a legal standpoint. If I built it using the same parts etc. but this is NJ and I’m okay with having to buy a completed one. Was eyeing your guys stuff couldn’t justify another AR, but this thing in 9mm. Sign me up 

Thank bro...Yeah let me know if you wanna come for a test drive

[david8613 69]

I need to know will this be available in 9mm??? Something like this in 9mm with glock mags would be perfect! 

[Blank 60]

13 minutes ago, david8613 said:

I need to know will this be available in 9mm??? Something like this in 9mm with glock mags would be perfect! 

We will have it in 9MM soon...

 

[JackDaWack 2,895]

21 minutes ago, Modern Materiel said:

Yes Sir. The answer i have for you is that according to the law it HAS to be registered as a "OTHER FIREARM" or "FIREARM" If you have a Stripped Lower it is registered as a "LOWER" and not a "FIREARM" That is all the information i have at this time. That is why i posted the State Police information so you can get clarification directly from the authority. I am trying to help this is what was told to us.

Thanks...

My built rifles all listed on a COE as semi auto receiver, but a COE only has the "action" listed/requested. I was under the impression that guns aren't registered in NJ? Aside from Pistol Permits, isn't everything else just FFL records? 

 

8 minutes ago, shooter28 said:

Let’s have everyone keep the attitudes in check. If that’s what MM was told, then that’s what he was told. Maybe the officer misspoke. Maybe MM misheard. Maybe NJ is grasping at some weird law that may or may not be correct. We all have the contact info so we can find out more. Let’s not get in a pissing match with each other- we’re on the same side

Not trying to give me him attitude. I understand he was told something and just relaying that back. Just trying to understand why they said it was a no go. 

[david8613 69]

8 hours ago, Modern Materiel said:

We will have it in 9MM soon...

 

This is good news!!! Thank you...

[Maksim 1,504]

10 hours ago, PK90 said:

Most excellent. 

Hope this lasts longer than the M1 Carbine approval.

HAHAHA.  I was just thinking that.

@Modern Materiel  I hope you sell a crap ton of these and get them into people's hands.

Also amazed at the blue eye being given to NJ.

I agree with @PK90, I wonder how long until this gets brought up the food  chain and nixed.

A weapon designed to be fired with two hands... comes with a "pistol" brace... but cannot be used as a "pistol"

I think effectively this means manufacturers can start sticking a VFG on any "pistol" over the weight limit.

This definitely is a bad black eye for NJ... but I think they will be fixing this in upcoming legislation and fix the definition of pistol. 

[Maksim 1,504]

And just an FYI and a reminder from the M1 Carbine fiasco...

If you want this to be okay... DO NOT contact the NJSP with questions... "Is this NFA/Pistol Brace thing legal?"

That is exactly how the M1 Carbine got canned about 8 years ago.

 

[carl_g 568]

49 minutes ago, Maksim said:

And just an FYI and a reminder from the M1 Carbine fiasco...

If you want this to be okay... DO NOT contact the NJSP with questions... "Is this NFA/Pistol Brace thing legal?"

That is exactly how the M1 Carbine got canned about 8 years ago.

 

You can almost be certain that this will happen. 

[0Jeep4 87]

56 minutes ago, Maksim said:

And just an FYI and a reminder from the M1 Carbine fiasco...

If you want this to be okay... DO NOT contact the NJSP with questions... "Is this NFA/Pistol Brace thing legal?"

That is exactly how the M1 Carbine got canned about 8 years ago.

 

If dealers are selling it why would anyone ask the state. I guess Stockholm syndrome runs deep Here.

Now say one does purchase such a device and than nj throws the ban hammer at it. What happens than, exempt, or do they start sending NJSP to round them up ? What played out with the M1 that was before my time? 

[Maksim 1,504]

Just now, 0Jeep4 said:

If dealers are selling it why would anyone ask the state. I guess Stockholm syndrome runs deep Here.

Now say one does purchase such a device and than nj throws the ban hammer at it. What happens than, exempt, or do they start sending NJSP to round them up ? What played out with the M1 that was before my time? 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

That is the LOL of the year so far I think.

It is not forum members, it is rather people who hear from others who do not believe things on the internet and start calling in and ask.

The sheer volume of calls captured attention and M1 Carbines were overturned.... er the letters that said M1 Carbine was kosher... no longer were.

In case of M1, some dealers called to take them back, quite a few of the guns are still out there in the hiding.  

In short, for those whom may not know.... M1 Carbines are illegal as per the NJ AWB.  They are on the list.

There was a model that came out that that was effectively an M1 but was not labeled as M1.  Rifle was submitted to NJSP, they said it was okay.

Word got out and people started buying.  Many people did not believe it and started calling NJSP.

AG got word and then nixed it.  (fairly positive was AG).

[shooter28 153]

6 minutes ago, 0Jeep4 said:

If dealers are selling it why would anyone ask the state. I guess Stockholm syndrome runs deep Here.

Now say one does purchase such a device and than nj throws the ban hammer at it. What happens than, exempt, or do they start sending NJSP to round them up ? What played out with the M1 that was before my time? 

Oh yes

[0Jeep4 87]

4 minutes ago, Maksim said:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

That is the LOL of the year so far I think.

Wasn’t trying to be funny, maybe I missed it but from my perspective if I walked into a local gun shop and purchased a weapon from them. Even how private party sales are done here now. I’m not buying the weapon from the other private party. That weapon was logged into the dealer books and than transferred to me. So technically speaking the dealer sold it to me.

( had a dealer say to me after I paid a private party for a sale and the guy left while waiting for NICS that if I dropped dead or left and couldn’t be found that’s his weapon now) 

Legally how could i be found at fault if the weapon they transferred me was illegal. Wouldn’t that liability fall on the dealer especially in a state like NJ. 

[Maksim 1,504]

15 minutes ago, 0Jeep4 said:

If dealers are selling it why would anyone ask the state. I guess Stockholm syndrome runs deep Here.

Now say one does purchase such a device and than nj throws the ban hammer at it. What happens than, exempt, or do they start sending NJSP to round them up ? What played out with the M1 that was before my time? 

Here is the post....

 

[Maksim 1,504]

11 minutes ago, 0Jeep4 said:

Wasn’t trying to be funny, maybe I missed it but from my perspective if I walked into a local gun shop and purchased a weapon from them. Even how private party sales are done here now. I’m not buying the weapon from the other private party. That weapon was logged into the dealer books and than transferred to me. So technically speaking the dealer sold it to me.

( had a dealer say to me after I paid a private party for a sale and the guy left while waiting for NICS that if I dropped dead or left and couldn’t be found that’s his weapon now) 

Legally how could i be found at fault if the weapon they transferred me was illegal. Wouldn’t that liability fall on the dealer especially in a state like NJ. 

I think that would be an interesting case...

You are then saying you have no responsibility to know what is legal and what is not?

Or in essence... you bought a gun on the last day with 15 round limits before they went to 10.

Now the limits are 10 and you still have 15 round mags.  

Whose fault is it?  Yours? Or the Dealers?

For the time being, however long this may be, these types of firearms ARE legal... Of course, this is NJ and you must understand how fine of a line these guns are made for... and as we have seen in the past, the AG can easily come out with another interpretation of what is compliant and what is not.

While you would hope the dealers are up to date and reach out in case the guns are no longer compliant, it is ultimately your responsibility.

 

While these new non-nfa firearms are currently legal, we all know the state of NJ and there will without a doubt be calls about this...  from non-believers and MANY FFLs.

If you want to risk it, or have money to lose, then go ahead and get one as soon as you can.  Most people here will likely tell you and agree with me that this is not likely to last too long and either an AG will come down on this OR NJ will redefine gun definitions.  As a reminder, they run the entire government... they can do it.    So I give it a year, tops (if they have to go the legislative route).

Keep in mind, unlike the silly M1 Carbine... these guns are the holy culmination of all that is despised by NJ... short barrel,  flash hiders, pistol brace, over weight limit, small enough to conceal in a backpack and oh yes... evil looking.

So if you want to taste freedom and give NJ an FU... go out and buy one as soon as you can... just know that 1. you will attract A LOT of attention at the gun ranges and 2. It may be a temporary purchase.

By temporary I mean like California people quickly rushing out to buy 30 round mags before they appeal was put back in place and back to 10 round limits. 

[0Jeep4 87]

Obviously I’m not attmepting to not hold my self accountable at all.

I’m was just speaking in general terms. Why would one assume a weapon up on display for sale in a local FFL is illegal. 

My personal belief about the whole “reasonably Identical Clause” its not legal and wouldn’t stand up in court but is left up as a deterrent to us. (Not a rich man wouldn’t want to find out) but seeing as Arsenal’s, WASR, Colt ARs, all the others that get sold once neutered.( No longer reasonable Identical) Correct me if I’m wrong. 

Hell my buddy just picked up a Colt it literally says AR-15 on it. Dealer had no issue transferring once compliance work was done. Is that rifle illegal? 

I apologize if I come off as combative I’m not attmepting to be. I just know many on here are better informed and in the know than I am and I like to fully understand and grasp this craziness that we call NJ firearm laws. 

[ChrisJM981 924]

28 minutes ago, 0Jeep4 said:

Hell my buddy just picked up a Colt it literally says AR-15 on it. Dealer had no issue transferring once compliance work was done. Is that rifle illegal? 

I'm pretty sure that's on the list....

Edit: It is on the list.

N.J.A.C. 13:54-1.2

"Colt AR-15"

[PK90 3,570]

As Maks indicated, the US Carbine Caliber ML was approved by the NJSP by an email, then disapproved by the NJAG in about a week, because it was still an "M1 Carbine Type".

This however is different. The non-NFA non-AWB Firearm approval is on NJAG letterhead. It will be overturned by the politicians in the future by passing a new law. It will take awhile to happen though.

[0Jeep4 87]

16 minutes ago, ChrisJM981 said:

I'm pretty sure that's on the list....

It’s definitely on the list. That’s why it makes me wonder how legit this list is? But again the citizen is at their own peril when it comes to gun laws in NJ. I guess it only matters when it does like when your in front of a jury looking at some time. 

Sorry just got called my buddy he sent me a pic of the Colt it’s not engraved AR-15 like he stated it was. Apologizes. 

[ChrisJM981 924]

Please note that the overall length is 26.5" with a 12.5" barrel. 

This means the firearm was measured collapsed. 

If you choose to build your own and risk the legality of it, DO NOT use a barrel less than 12.5" long. I embrace gray areas of the law, but that letter from the NJSP sets a precedent for how OAL (overall length) will be determined in NJ. 

[shooter28 153]

16 minutes ago, ChrisJM981 said:

Please note that the overall length is 26.5" with a 12.5" barrel. 

This means the firearm was measured collapsed. 

If you choose to build your own and risk the legality of it, DO NOT use a barrel less than 12.5" long. I embrace gray areas of the law, but that letter from the NJSP sets a precedent for how OAL (overall length) will be determined in NJ. 

Yes but the flash hider wasnt pinned thus the length was measured just to the end of the actual barrel. Pin a muzzle device and now its considered part of the barrel and you measure to the end of that. If you notice in the other thread, Modern Materiel posted their version with a tape measure. The ~26.5" goes only to where the threads of the barrel would be, meanwhile the end of the muzzle device actually goes to 28"

[MartyZ 692]

I can just imagine the look on the ROs face first time one of these is uncased at Range 14.

[shooter28 153]

I am curious if there is something in NJ law that prevents firearms from changing classes as they are built/modified. 

When one buys a stripped lower in this state, its comes in as a lower/frame/other. Once its built into a rifle, its class obviously changes to "rifle" as well. If it didnt, the AWB rules wouldnt apply. The AWB only applies to handgun, rifles and shotguns, not lower receivers.  If you take a "rifle" and cut the barrel down it can become an "SBR". If you take a pistol and put a stock on it, it also becomes an "SBR." By ATF regs, adding a VFG on a pistol changes its class to either "firearm" or "AOW" depending on overall length. 

https://johnpierceesq.com/can-you-add-a-vertical-fore-grip-to-an-ar-pistol/

So Im curious why a lower receiver doesnt change to a "firearm" if it is built up as one here in NJ. Are there additional NJ laws that makes some sort of exception for this particular case?

[GramGun79 226]

3 hours ago, Maksim said:

And just an FYI and a reminder from the M1 Carbine fiasco...

If you want this to be okay... DO NOT contact the NJSP with questions... "Is this NFA/Pistol Brace thing legal?"

That is exactly how the M1 Carbine got canned about 8 years ago.

 

Lets say they reverse it..how do you think they will handle people who already own them? will i be able to keep it? 

[JackDaWack 2,895]

1 hour ago, shooter28 said:

I am curious if there is something in NJ law that prevents firearms from changing classes as they are built/modified. 

When one buys a stripped lower in this state, its comes in as a lower/frame/other. Once its built into a rifle, its class obviously changes to "rifle" as well. If it didnt, the AWB rules wouldnt apply. The AWB only applies to handgun, rifles and shotguns, not lower receivers.  If you take a "rifle" and cut the barrel down it can become an "SBR". If you take a pistol and put a stock on it, it also becomes an "SBR." By ATF regs, adding a VFG on a pistol changes its class to either "firearm" or "AOW" depending on overall length. 

https://johnpierceesq.com/can-you-add-a-vertical-fore-grip-to-an-ar-pistol/

So Im curious why a lower receiver doesnt change to a "firearm" if it is built up as one here in NJ. Are there additional NJ laws that makes some sort of exception for this particular case?

There is nothing to ponder over, a receiver is not classified as anything per say. Only one condition needs to be met, and that is if you build it into a pistol.... even then I find it a stretch of the law that you MUST use a P2P for the receiver... but since pistols are strictly regulated i guess they get that argument on their side.  

Nothing else in the law outlines how a receiver, rifle, shotgun or "firearm" is recorded upon sale. In fact I could call my FFL right now and have him add to specific COE "semi auto receiver firearm". The only requirement is that a COE is used and records the requested info. 

NJ law is clear on "sawed off" firearms, so the "firearm" CANNOT begin life as a rifle, which is where this headache with receivers is coming from. It sounds like the NJSP are trying to get receivers classified as rifles, or make it purposely confusing to keep people from taking already built rifles and converting them... because how the hell will they know what you made it into?

After looking at my docs, I do have a single receiver that was purchased back in 2012 that was listed as "semi auto rifle". To me, that would be a definitive no go based on the documentation the FFL has stored. 

1 hour ago, GramGun79 said:

Lets say they reverse it..how do you think they will handle people who already own them? will i be able to keep it? 

NO, you will not be able to keep it. When has NJ grandfathered anything in the last 20 years?

[Dark Storm 23]

On 6/14/2019 at 10:26 PM, 0Jeep4 said:

Okay so now the real question is how does one get a receiver transferred to themselves labeled “firearm”. Last I check receiver in nj only transfer as rifles I thought. 

Per ATF, a stripped or assembled lower is logged in and out as a "receiver".  If it is a complete rifle than it is a "rifle".  In order to be a "firearm non-NFA" which is the legal term used by the ATF, it must arrive to the FFL manufactured in that format.  There is nothing special engraved on ours, it is the manufactured configuration and the transfer paperwork which classify what it is.    Hope that helps.

[shooter28 153]

1 hour ago, Dark Storm said:

Per ATF, a stripped or assembled lower is logged in and out as a "receiver".  If it is a complete rifle than it is a "rifle".  In order to be a "firearm non-NFA" which is the legal term used by the ATF, it must arrive to the FFL manufactured in that format.  There is nothing special engraved on ours, it is the manufactured configuration and the transfer paperwork which classify what it is.    Hope that helps.

Interesting. So assembling it yourself is out. Having the parts shipped to a dealer in NJ and put together in he shop before being transferred would be out as well. But....if I had a gun builder or FFL in another state put together a gun in “firearm non-NFA” setup and had it sent to a FFL in NJ as exactly that, that would satisfy ATF regulations right? It would be checked in and checked out of the NJ FFL as a “firearm non-NFA”

[0Jeep4 87]

9 hours ago, JackDaWack said:

 It sounds like the NJSP are trying to get receivers classified as rifles, or make it purposely confusing to keep people from taking already built rifles and converting them... 

This is the real reason. Being able to track these weapons in the underlying issue I bet. They don’t want to open up the vacuum.