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NJ measures OAL how? Asked and answered.

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20 hours ago, e92m3allday said:

According to the letter released on the legality of the non-NFA firearms, NJSP/ATF measured it from buffer tube to the end of barrel threads (or muzzle device if pinned). Until today I couldn't figure it out either. 

Where does it say that in the letter? 

They said that oal was measured by placing the firearm on a flat surface and taking a measurement from the extremes ends. 

Better question: 

Does it matter how NJ would measure it? The 26" min is a federal requirement, so doesn't it only matter how the ATF measures?

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3 minutes ago, JackDaWack said:

Where does it say that in the letter? 

They said that oal was measured by placing the firearm on a flat surface and taking a measurement from the extremes ends. 

Better question: 

Does it matter how NJ would measure it? The 26" min is a federal requirement, so doesn't it only matter how the ATF measures?

I have to take back my statement. I’m genuinely confused though. It doesn’t say to,  I assumed it because a 12.5” barrel with the brace extended would be 30”+.  That is how they should have measured it, per the ATF.

It was 28” OAL for the DSI and 26.5” for the Troy. A 12.5” barrel should be roughly 27” OAL from the buffer tube. The DSI has some cheek rest on it and probably had an extended buffer tube. So that maybe explains the DSI’s 28”. 

But the TROY OAL was 26.5” which, doesn’t make sense because a 12.5” barrel will be > 27” even from the buffer tube. I honestly think the Troy is an 11.5” barrel. In the letter, the Troy specs says 10.5” rail, and if you look at the picture there is no way it’s a 12.5” barrel. 

Either way, collapsed or from buffer tube is probably the safest bet, using this information. 

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I'm more interested in if it even matters how the NJSP measure? If you violate the NFA it's an ATF issue, not NJSP. They can measure it under 25.9" all day long from buffer to muzzle... If the ATF follow their guidelines, then you should be fine. Unless of course I'm missing something about a NJ law.

2 minutes ago, Dark Storm said:

Per our communication with NJSP... "Firearm must have an overall length of more then 26 inches with the pistol brace collapsed."  so that would imply it is measured from the tip of the barrel threads to the brace in the collapsed position.

Is there a NJ statue that can be referenced, or are they trying to enforce a federal law as their own?

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2 minutes ago, Dark Storm said:

Since the ATF measures extended, the situation could exist where the firearm is greater than 26" by ATF measurement, but shorter by NJSP measurement. 

And who's measurement actually counts? if the ATF finds you under 26" you got an AOW and are in serious Sh*t for violating the NFA.

If the NJSP find it under 26".......? what they gonna do?

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5 minutes ago, JackDaWack said:

And who's measurement actually counts? if the ATF finds you under 26" you got an AOW and are in serious Sh*t for violating the NFA.

If the NJSP find it under 26".......? what they gonna do?

Theoretically both, each independently.  I can't speak for what NJSP would do with a 25.9" gun.  Each state has it's own laws and regulations. Connecticut for example treats anything with up to a 12.0" barrel as a pistol (that is codified in the law) and that is why most firearm non-NFAs have a 12.5" barrel.

13 minutes ago, JackDaWack said:

Is there a NJ statue that can be referenced, or are they trying to enforce a federal law as their own?

Not that I am aware of.

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51 minutes ago, Dark Storm said:

Theoretically both, each independently.  I can't speak for what NJSP would do with a 25.9" gun.  Each state has it's own laws and regulations. Connecticut for example treats anything with up to a 12.0" barrel as a pistol (that is codified in the law) and that is why most firearm non-NFAs have a 12.5" barrel.

Not that I am aware of.

Im not aware of any NJ state law that mentions a 26" or greater OAL requirement, other than the "sawed off shotgun" definition. 

"Sawed-off shotgun" means any shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length measured from the breach to the muzzle, or a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length measured from the breach to the muzzle, or any firearm made from a rifle or a shotgun, whether by alteration, or otherwise, if such firearm as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches.

I cant find anything else in the NJ law that has length requirements... so my non lawyer opinion would be that the NJSP can pound sand in terms of measuring OAL for a "firearm". For a modified rifle or shotgun, yes. 

 

I understand companies try and find a middle ground to get a product legal in as many states possible, that makes sense why you would go with a 12.5" barrel for that purpose. 

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On 6/19/2019 at 7:50 PM, nondisclosure said:

So if I decide to Pin and weld ( I don’t have any parts in front of me to measure) would a 10.5” barrel with a 3 prong flash hider 2.6” with the upper and carbine tube qualify over 26” bare minimum under ATF/NJSP measurement procedure differences?

Depends on the length of your arm brace, but that would be over 26" with a SBA3 brace. 

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Just now, runcibleman said:

Wait what? Since when can we have AR15 "pistols" in NJ? Those are all over 50 oz. in weight and thus not NJ legal, no?

We do manufacture fixed mag DS-15 pistols that are legal in New Jersey.  The weight limit does not apply since the magazine is not detachable.

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The NJSP letter about the Dark Storm Industries and Troy Industries "firearm non-NFA" configurations is what is new.

Our fixed mag pistols and rifles have always been legal in NJ. 

"Standard" AR and AK pistols are NOT legal.

2 minutes ago, runcibleman said:

 

Oooh... Non-detachable... I'm going back to being a sad clown now.

With the ejection port speed loaders we sell you can reload as fast as a mag change.  Video demo is on a rifle, but the same process applies to the pistol.

 

 

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Dark Storm, maybe it was clear to everyone else (it took me a few more reads and checking your site, buy your newly approved Non-NFA Firearm is not a fixed magazine AR-derived firearm that is NJ legal, has a shorter barrel, brace, etc.:

https://www.dark-storm.com/dsi/ds-15/ds-15-typhoon-rifles/dark-storm-ds-15-non-nfa-firearm-typhoon-5.56-black/

So once again, for others who might be slow on the uptake like I am: You can have a non-fixed magazine weapon with a shorter than 16" barrel that is based on the AR15 DI mechanism, within the narrow confines of the NJSP's tolerances, per the letter issued to Dark Storm and Troy Industries.

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3 hours ago, runcibleman said:

Dark Storm, maybe it was clear to everyone else (it took me a few more reads and checking your site, buy your newly approved Non-NFA Firearm is not a fixed magazine AR-derived firearm that is NJ legal, has a shorter barrel, brace, etc.:

https://www.dark-storm.com/dsi/ds-15/ds-15-typhoon-rifles/dark-storm-ds-15-non-nfa-firearm-typhoon-5.56-black/

So once again, for others who might be slow on the uptake like I am: You can have a non-fixed magazine weapon with a shorter than 16" barrel that is based on the AR15 DI mechanism, within the narrow confines of the NJSP's tolerances, per the letter issued to Dark Storm and Troy Industries.

:facepalm:     :suicide:

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Funny how backwards NJ is...

The original NJSP letter regarding these firearms was related to the ones using shotgun ammo (Shockwave, TAC-14, etc). It had specific points, like it could not start out as a shotgun (Federal requirement, as well), but then stated that it must comply with BATFE regulations. I’ve yet to see any statement on OAL measurement, other than this email from NJSP. Measuring with the stock/brace extended IS BATFE regulation. Hell, one of the firearms NJSP cleared by name has a folding brace, and if you measure it folded, you are well under 26” OAL.

But it is one of those things that if really pushed, they could possibly revisit it and say these are all “sawed-off shotguns.”

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So a related question that I need clarity on...

for NJ, are muzzle devices required to be pinned and welded if the measurement is from the end of the threads?  If I remember correctly, the answer is yes,since you can theoretically remove the muzzle break and install a flash hider...correct?

thanks in advance

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1 hour ago, NJSigfan said:

So a related question that I need clarity on...

for NJ, are muzzle devices required to be pinned and welded if the measurement is from the end of the threads?  If I remember correctly, the answer is yes,since you can theoretically remove the muzzle break and install a flash hider...correct?

thanks in advance

No. The NJ AW Ban only applies to shotguns, rifles and handguns, not Pistol-Grip Firearms.

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5 hours ago, NJSigfan said:

So a related question that I need clarity on...

for NJ, are muzzle devices required to be pinned and welded if the measurement is from the end of the threads?  If I remember correctly, the answer is yes,since you can theoretically remove the muzzle break and install a flash hider...correct?

thanks in advance

It depends if you need the muzzle device to count towards overall length or not.

1) If the firearm is OVER 26" in length without a muzzle device the answer is "The muzzle device does not need to be pinned/welded on". 

2) If the firearm is UNDER 26" in length without a muzzle device you can pin/weld it on to get over 26". 

I'd get a longer barrel to be able to use suppressors in PA. 

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8 hours ago, ChrisJM981 said:

It depends if you need the muzzle device to count towards overall length or not.

1) If the firearm is OVER 26" in length without a muzzle device the answer is "The muzzle device does not need to be pinned/welded on". 

2) If the firearm is UNDER 26" in length without a muzzle device you can pin/weld it on to get over 26". 

I'd get a longer barrel to be able to use suppressors in PA. 

Thank you.  Appreciate it.  Looking at getting an 18 or 20 inch barrel.

 

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13 hours ago, JT Custom Guns said:

There are a select few AR-15 pistols that are NJ legal..........

As of right now it's the Dark Storm DS-15..the Troy A4...and Modern Materiel no?! And we cannot build them:think:?! funny got an email this morning that the SB tactical SBA4 brace is on sale too for $99..

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13 hours ago, JT Custom Guns said:

There are a select few AR-15 pistols that are NJ legal..........

The guns we are primarily discussing on this thread are NOT pistols, they are non-NFA firearms.  As far as I know, the only AR pistols legal in NJ are our DSI fixed mag and (probably) the Franklin Armory bolt action (not semi-auto) one they make for California.  Any AR pistol that is semi-auto with a detachable magazine would be an assault weapon in NJ because the magazine is not in the pistol grip (and it is likely over the 50 ounce weight limit).

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