NJ measures OAL how? Asked and answered.

[PK90 3,569]

@Dark Storm @Modern Materiel 

Do you have it in writing yet from the NJSP or NJAG as to how they measure the OAL of a firearm? If so, please post it here so that the proper actions can be taken.

POI: There is no NJ Law that says a Pistol-Grip Firearm cannot be made to a certain length. There is a law that forbids the making of shotguns or rifles to under 26".

[CapGuns&SnapsKid 33]

1 minute ago, Dark Storm said:

The guns we are primarily discussing on this thread are NOT pistols, they are non-NFA firearms.  As far as I know, the only AR pistols legal in NJ are our DSI fixed mag and (probably) the Franklin Armory bolt action (not semi-auto) one they make for California.  Any AR pistol that is semi-auto with a detachable magazine would be an assault weapon in NJ because the magazine is not in the pistol grip (and it is likely over the 50 ounce weight limit).

As soon as I raise this money I'm grabbing that DS-15!! you guys did a great job with that. 

[Dark Storm 23]

1 minute ago, PK90 said:

@Dark Storm @Modern Materiel 

Do you have it in writing yet from the NJSP or NJAG as to how they measure the OAL of a firearm? If so, please post it here so that the proper actions can be taken.

POI: There is no NJ Law that says a Pistol-Grip Firearm cannot be made to a certain length. There is a law that forbids the making of shotguns or rifles to under 26".

Yes, and it has been posted numerous times already.  NJSP measures with the brace collapsed.  ATF measures extended.  Don't ask me why, it does not make sense. 

The new guns we are discussing are NOT "pistol grip firearms" , they are "non-NFA firearms".  It is a different classification.  Federal regulation limits this classification to a minimum length of 26". 

There is no federal law that limits the overall length of rifles of shotguns.  Federal law separates whether rifles are shotguns are "short barrel" or not by barrel length, not by overall length.

[PK90 3,569]

22 minutes ago, Dark Storm said:

Yes, and it has been posted numerous times already.  NJSP measures with the brace collapsed.  ATF measures extended.  Don't ask me why, it does not make sense. 

The new guns we are discussing are NOT "pistol grip firearms" , they are "non-NFA firearms".  It is a different classification.  Federal regulation limits this classification to a minimum length of 26". 

There is no federal law that limits the overall length of rifles of shotguns.  Federal law separates whether rifles are shotguns are "short barrel" or not by barrel length, not by overall length.

There is nothing posted about how the NJSP measures OAL. There is no NJ Law that mentions it. Your nonNFA Firearms are Pistol-Grip Firearms. Call them what you want, but ATF says to log them in and out as Pistol-Grip Firearms. AND. there is Federal Law that limits the OAL. They become NFA firearms if not adhered to. What are you smoking this morning?

ETA: 

Please post the email and I'll drop this point. Some of us want to hold the NJSP accountable for going outside the law.

[runcibleman 28]

1 hour ago, CapGuns&SnapsKid said:

As of right now it's the Dark Storm DS-15..the Troy A4...and Modern Materiel no?! And we cannot build them?! funny got an email this morning that the SB tactical SBA4 brace is on sale too for $99..

Well, that's precisely the reservation of many people here. They don't dare presume that they too can safely build their own versions of what some manufacturers (Troy, DSI, Modern Materiel) got approved based on their recipes. (Must start with new lower receiver, not an already partly or fully built rifle/pistol lower, use a brace instead of a stock, always have a vertical foregrip attached, and overall length must be greater than 26" — which the NJSP measured from the collapsed brace to the end of the barrel, or the muzzle device if permanently attached to the barrel)

[Dark Storm 23]

34 minutes ago, PK90 said:

There is nothing posted about how the NJSP measures OAL. There is no NJ Law that mentions it. Your nonNFA Firearms are Pistol-Grip Firearms. Call them what you want, but ATF says to log them in and out as Pistol-Grip Firearms. AND. there is Federal Law that limits the OAL. They become NFA firearms if not adhered to. What are you smoking this morning?

ETA: 

Please post the email and I'll drop this point. Some of us want to hold the NJSP accountable for going outside the law.

Here is the exact language from NJSP... "Firearm must have an overall length of more then 26 inches with the pistol brace collapsed."

Per the ATF determination letter, the guns are classified as "firearm non-NFA".  If you log them in and out as anything else, you may be subject to violations during an ATF audit.  A copy of the ATF determination letter is attached as addendum to the NJSP/NJAG letter.

If you are referring to 26 USC 5845a, for the 26" length, that refers to the modification of a rifle of shotgun to have a length less than 26".  It does not refer to a weapon that was not originally built as a rifle or shotgun which is the case for these guns, as well as the Mossberg shockwave and 500 cruiser pistol grip.

[Dark Storm 23]

@PK90 if you are an FFL in New Jersey, it is my understanding you will be receiving a letter from NJSP clarifying a lot of these questions.  That should take place in the next few weeks from what I have been told.  The last few months have been just working with the manufacturers to get all of the details worked out on their (our) side.

[nondisclosure 55]

20 minutes ago, Dark Storm said:

@PK90 if you are an FFL in New Jersey, it is my understanding you will be receiving a letter from NJSP clarifying a lot of these questions.  That should take place in the next few weeks from what I have been told.  The last few months have been just working with the manufacturers to get all of the details worked out on their (our) side.

By any chance would you have any knowledge if NJSP will allow the people to build their own? And or if they will be clarifying this specifically?

thanks in advance

[Dark Storm 23]

3 minutes ago, nondisclosure said:

By any chance would you have any knowledge if NJSP will allow the people to build their own? And or if they will be clarifying this specifically?

thanks in advance

My understanding is no, but that is really not our direct area.  We work with them about what directly impacts our manufacturing of complete firearms.  Hopefully there will be some clarification in the letter to dealers as I know this is a definite point of concern for a lot of people.  I can tell you there are a lot of nuisances with this type of gun and a small mis-step can have you facing a 10 year federal felony so even in free states, you need to tread carefully.

[PK90 3,569]

23 minutes ago, Dark Storm said:

@PK90 if you are an FFL in New Jersey, it is my understanding you will be receiving a letter from NJSP clarifying a lot of these questions.  That should take place in the next few weeks from what I have been told.  The last few months have been just working with the manufacturers to get all of the details worked out on their (our) side.

Thank you. I was imprisoned in NJ as a dealer for 13 years, but now in free AZ for 6 and still a dealer. I think the NJSP realized this now and won't be sending me a letter, although they tried to call for an inspection in 2017. 

[JT Custom Guns 956]

1 hour ago, Dark Storm said:

The guns we are primarily discussing on this thread are NOT pistols, they are non-NFA firearms.  As far as I know, the only AR pistols legal in NJ are our DSI fixed mag and (probably) the Franklin Armory bolt action (not semi-auto) one they make for California.  Any AR pistol that is semi-auto with a detachable magazine would be an assault weapon in NJ because the magazine is not in the pistol grip (and it is likely over the 50 ounce weight limit).

I was replying to another members remark about AR Pistols being illegal in NJ

As I said - there are a few AR Pistols that can be legal in NJ (Carbon 15 pistol, Bushmaster Carbon 15 w/o shroud, Extar, ect.)

there are AR 15 pistols that are under the 50 oz. weight limit..................

1 hour ago, CapGuns&SnapsKid said:

As of right now it's the Dark Storm DS-15..the Troy A4...and Modern Materiel no?! And we cannot build them?! funny got an email this morning that the SB tactical SBA4 brace is on sale too for $99..

Those are not AR Pistols - they are Firearms

There are a few 'Pistols" that are avail. (no brace)

[Dark Storm 23]

34 minutes ago, JT Custom Guns said:

I was replying to another members remark about AR Pistols being illegal in NJ

As I said - there are a few AR Pistols that can be legal in NJ (Carbon 15 pistol, Bushmaster Carbon 15 w/o shroud, Extar, ect.)

there are AR 15 pistols that are under the 50 oz. weight limit..................

Those are not AR Pistols - they are Firearms

There are a few 'Pistols" that are avail. (no brace)

Got it.  The one "feature" is the mag outside of the pistol grip.  Weight it under, no "shroud", non-threaded or pin/weld comp.

[PK90 3,569]

50 minutes ago, Dark Storm said:

... Per the ATF determination letter, the guns are classified as "firearm non-NFA".  If you log them in and out as anything else, you may be subject to violations during an ATF audit.  A copy of the ATF determination letter is attached as addendum to the NJSP/NJAG letter ....

After reviewing the March, 2013 Volume 2 ATF Newsletter, you are correct. ATF refers only to "shotguns" as Pistol-Grip Firearms, although I have logged in 1919s and M3HBs as Pistol-Grip Firearms. AFAIK, their guidance on non-NFA Firearms has yet to be advised in an open letter or newsletter. I doubt that I'd ever see this type anyway. My customers prefer pistols with all the evilness one can have. 

[Dark Storm 23]

Just now, PK90 said:

After reviewing the March, 2013 Volume 2 ATF Newsletter, you are correct. ATF refers only to "shotguns" as Pistol-Grip Firearms, although I have logged in 1919s and M3HBs as Pistol-Grip Firearms. AFAIK, their guidance on non-NFA Firearms has yet to be advised in an open letter or newsletter. I doubt that I'd ever see this type anyway. My customers prefer pistols with all the evilness one can have. 

Good question as to what a 1919 would be?  It is not designed to be shouldered.  I wonder if there is a ATF determination letter for it.  It's not designed to be shouldered so it would not be a rifle.  Is it a pistol?  That would be crazy if it is.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

1 hour ago, nondisclosure said:

By any chance would you have any knowledge if NJSP will allow the people to build their own? And or if they will be clarifying this specifically?

thanks in advance

Im curious if we will even get a letter clarifying this, the NJSP don't have a law to cite to say you cant build one from a receiver.  If you built a rifle from a receiver did you get permission from the NJSP prior?

 

[samtechlan 23]

1 hour ago, JT Custom Guns said:

I was replying to another members remark about AR Pistols being illegal in NJ

As I said - there are a few AR Pistols that can be legal in NJ (Carbon 15 pistol, Bushmaster Carbon 15 w/o shroud, Extar, ect.)

there are AR 15 pistols that are under the 50 oz. weight limit..................

Those are not AR Pistols - they are Firearms

There are a few 'Pistols" that are avail. (no brace)

The Extar EP9 is legal in NJ?

[PK90 3,569]

4 minutes ago, samtechlan said:

The Extar EP9 is legal in NJ?

The EXP556 without the handguard.

[runcibleman 28]

27 minutes ago, JackDaWack said:

Im curious if we will even get a letter clarifying this, the NJSP don't have a law to cite to say you cant build one from a receiver.  If you built a rifle from a receiver did you get permission from the NJSP prior?

 

Well, that's the problem: Do you want to risk being the test case if there is no explicit consent from the NJSP FIU? Let's say on the 1% likelyhood that some shitty range (and yes, they exist, and shitty RSO's exist everywhere, even at otherwise decent ranges - see the plate-carriered asshole at RTSP in Randolph with the two guns always strapped to himself, barking at everyone because he hates himself so much and somehow management hasn't gotten rid of that nasty old cur) would report you and the troopers come out, do you want to have the hassle and aggravation of having the non-NFA firearm seized and possibly be charged until they are proven wrong?

[JackDaWack 2,895]

7 minutes ago, runcibleman said:

Well, that's the problem: Do you want to risk being the test case if there is no explicit consent from the NJSP FIU? Let's say on the 1% likelyhood that some shitty range (and yes, they exist, and shitty RSO's exist everywhere, even at otherwise decent ranges - see the plate-carriered asshole at RTSP in Randolph with the two guns always strapped to himself, barking at everyone because he hates himself so much and somehow management hasn't gotten rid of that nasty old cur) would report you and the troopers come out, do you want to have the hassle and aggravation of having the non-NFA firearm seized and possibly be charged until they are proven wrong?

NJSP gave consent for the configuration, I still don't see what the big scare is over building one... 

They are an FFL and i bet they will have them for rentals already, or just call and ask them if you can bring your legal firearm to their range ahead of time.... I highly doubt some guy at RTSP is going to know the difference between a troy, MM or DS from a built firearm or attempt to draw a line in the sand over it.

 

[runcibleman 28]

20 minutes ago, JackDaWack said:

NJSP gave consent for the configuration, I still don't see what the big scare is over building one... 

They are an FFL and i bet they will have them for rentals already, or just call and ask them if you can bring your legal firearm to their range ahead of time.... I highly doubt some guy at RTSP is going to know the difference between a troy, MM or DS from a built firearm or attempt to draw a line in the sand over it.

 

I agree with you, but the overly cautious abused housewives of NJ, which sadly includes too many FFL's and range operators, are so gaslit with the imagined prospect of shaved-headed state troopers kicking down their front door and shooting their dog and then having to spend months in court that they will rather assume that only those few manufacturers have permission, not you and I, even if we follow their same recipe as elaborated in the NJSP's letter to Troy and DSI.

[nondisclosure 55]

1 hour ago, JackDaWack said:

Im curious if we will even get a letter clarifying this, the NJSP don't have a law to cite to say you cant build one from a receiver.  If you built a rifle from a receiver did you get permission from the NJSP prior?

 

Nope never got permission. I hear ya. Would just really like to build one but I’m a pussy.  The truth hurts Lol

 

i don’t want anyone shooting my doggo.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

40 minutes ago, runcibleman said:

I agree with you, but the overly cautious abused housewives of NJ, which sadly includes too many FFL's and range operators, are so gaslit with the imagined prospect of shaved-headed state troopers kicking down their front door and shooting their dog and then having to spend months in court that they will rather assume that only those few manufacturers have permission, not you and I, even if we follow their same recipe as elaborated in the NJSP's letter to Troy and DSI.

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

 

[JT Custom Guns 956]

4 hours ago, Dark Storm said:

Got it.  The one "feature" is the mag outside of the pistol grip.  Weight it under, no "shroud", non-threaded or pin/weld comp.

Mag outside the PG is legal, as long as the weight is under 50oz. and a Non-Threaded BBl. (or is pinned / welded) and no BBl. shroud.

[shooter28 153]

14 hours ago, JackDaWack said:

NJSP gave consent for the configuration, I still don't see what the big scare is over building one... 

They are an FFL and i bet they will have them for rentals already, or just call and ask them if you can bring your legal firearm to their range ahead of time.... I highly doubt some guy at RTSP is going to know the difference between a troy, MM or DS from a built firearm or attempt to draw a line in the sand over it.

 

Neither do I. The letter outlined why these guns passed their test so it shouldn’t be scary to build the same thing yourself. It’s like asking if some new company on the block started producing AR15s and everyone needs to check if they are legal to own. Well, do they fall within current laws? Yep? Coo, go ahead and get it. 

I’ve started picking out parts. I was originally going to snag one of the upper kits from PSA but I’ve already gotten to the point of wanting to swap so many things out, I might as well start from scratch. 

The one thing I can’t remember since I’m crossed between 3 different threads on this topic. Folding braces- extended or collapsed for measuring OAL? 

[runcibleman 28]

5 hours ago, shooter28 said:

Neither do I. The letter outlined why these guns passed their test so it shouldn’t be scary to build the same thing yourself. It’s like asking if some new company on the block started producing AR15s and everyone needs to check if they are legal to own. Well, do they fall within current laws? Yep? Coo, go ahead and get it. 

I’ve started picking out parts. I was originally going to snag one of the upper kits from PSA but I’ve already gotten to the point of wanting to swap so many things out, I might as well start from scratch. 

The one thing I can’t remember since I’m crossed between 3 different threads on this topic. Folding braces- extended or collapsed for measuring OAL? 

If it's the NJSP FIU measuring it? Surely collapsed. But the ones they explicitly approved were non-folding so I personally would stay away from a folding brace, because things... and doggo doesn't want to get shot by state troopers.

[Dark Storm 23]

This is where it gets risky. As far as I know the ATF has never issued a determination on a non-NFA firearm that has a folding stock so you would be in uncharted territory even federally. As an FFL we have a process with ATF to get a legal determination made by them. The process involves us sending then a firearm to evaluate and takes 6-12 months. We also have the benefit of having an SOT (tax stamp for NFA weapons) that covers everything we own so if they decide something is an SBR it does not matter.  This does not work for individuals building their own.  So if you build your own, especially outside of the approved formula, you do so at your own peril. 

[PK90 3,569]

1 minute ago, Dark Storm said:

....As far as I know the ATF has never issued a determination on a non-NFA firearm that has a folding stock so you would be in uncharted territory even federally....

By stock, I assume you mean brace. There is an email from ATF that says the brace is measured extended. It is archived on Arfcom. But I wouldn't trust that.

[Dark Storm 23]

4 minutes ago, PK90 said:

By stock, I assume you mean brace. There is an email from ATF that says the brace is measured extended. It is archived on Arfcom. But I wouldn't trust that.

Yes folding brace. But the ATF says every item evaluated stands on its own and they are known for issuing conflicting decisions. They are also no longer issuing letters on parts or accessories, only complete firearms for exactly this reason. 

Don’t get me wrong. I an all about pushing the limits but you need to be prepared to fight the fight if it comes to it and most individuals are not. 

If there is enough demand for a folding version, I am sure us, or another manufacturer will go through the process to get a determination on one. 

[PK90 3,569]

I'll just place this letter here. MODS can lock this thread. So let it be written. So let it be done.

@Krdshrk

[runcibleman 28]

Funny though that DSFC Bloom cited that particular bit of our state's criminal code. Here is NJ Criminal Code Title 2C, Chapter 39, Section 5, Subsection e, paragraph 2:

Quote

(2) Any person who knowingly possesses any weapon enumerated in paragraphs (3) and (4) of subsection r. of N.J.S.2C:39-1 or any components which can readily be assembled into a firearm or other weapon enumerated in subsection r. of N.J.S.2C:39-1 or any other weapon under circumstances not manifestly appropriate for such lawful use as it may have, while in or upon any part of the buildings or grounds of any school, college, university or other educational institution without the written authorization of the governing officer of the institution is guilty of a crime of the fourth degree. 

All of section 5 for your reading pleasure: https://law.justia.com/codes/new-jersey/2018/title-2c/chapter-39/section-2c-39-5/