NJ measures OAL how? Asked and answered.

[Dark Storm 21]

Some breaking news on ATF length measurements  Looks like ATF is measuring folded / collapsed / removed now  

https://blog.princelaw.com/2019/07/05/atf-rescinds-prior-methods-to-measure-a-firearms-overall-length-when-equipped-with-a-stabilizing-brace/

[runcibleman 28]

24 minutes ago, Dark Storm said:

Some breaking news on ATF length measurements  Looks like ATF is measuring folded / collapsed / removed now  

https://blog.princelaw.com/2019/07/05/atf-rescinds-prior-methods-to-measure-a-firearms-overall-length-when-equipped-with-a-stabilizing-brace/

Thanks, that's good to know. So basically the NJSP FIU's way of measuring is now apparently the correct way, per the ATF. A collapsing brace needs to be collapsed all the way for the OAL measurement. If you had a folding one, it would have to be folded.

[Dark Storm 21]

3 minutes ago, runcibleman said:

Thanks, that's good to know. So basically the NJSP FIU's way of measuring is now apparently the correct way, per the ATF. A collapsing brace needs to be collapsed all the way for the OAL measurement. If you had a folding one, it would have to be folded.

So you Dark Storm, are therefore still good to go, but a lot of freer state pistols have now become no go, especially those bizarre 7.5" barreled deals that depended on full extension of the brace to pass the OAL test, right?

So this change only applies to non-NFA firearms and any other weapons. The issue is people who have what was a non-NFA firearm with a folding brace now may have an AOW because it is under 26” folded which would make it an NFA item requiring a tax stamp. This does not apply to pistols (no front grip). 

[runcibleman 28]

9 minutes ago, Dark Storm said:

So this change only applies to non-NFA firearms and any other weapons. The issue is people who have what was a non-NFA firearm with a folding brace now may have an AOW because it is under 26” folded which would make it an NFA item requiring a tax stamp. This does not apply to pistols (no front grip). 

Oh, thanks! I didn't catch that detail! So in many states other than NJ, they'd just take a pistol, slap a VFG on it and that was a legal "firearm" provided they could measure >26" with the brace extended all the way? Curious.

[PK90 3,547]

Thanks @Dark Storm

[JackDaWack 2,877]

and just like that, BAM!!! a bunch of shit was just made NFA!

[e92m3allday 15]

8 minutes ago, JackDaWack said:

and just like that, BAM!!! a bunch of shit was just made NFA!

ATF =  judge, jury, and executioner. 

So does this mean to continue to measure it collapsed for adjustable braces or measure it removed? Because the letter says non-adjustable braces are to be measured removed, and foldable braces folded, but what about adjustable braces? Also collapsed? The difference is negligible anyways. 

[Dark Storm 21]

6 minutes ago, e92m3allday said:

ATF =  judge, jury, and executioner. 

So does this mean to continue to measure it collapsed for adjustable braces or measure it removed? Because the letter says non-adjustable braces are to be measured removed, and foldable braces folded, but what about adjustable braces? Also collapsed? The difference is negligible anyways. 

We had that question with NJ and it seemed irrelevant since the adjustable brace fully collapsed is pretty much even with the end of the buffer tube.

[ChrisJM981 919]

 

22 minutes ago, Dark Storm said:

We had that question with NJ and it seemed irrelevant since the adjustable brace fully collapsed is pretty much even with the end of the buffer tube.

It says a brace is an accessory, not required for the function of a firearm, and not to count superfluous material in the OAL. That would be anything not necessary for the function of the firearm such as material past the end of the buffer tube. 

To simplify, OAL is measured from the end of the buffer tube to the end of the barrel with any removable barrel devices detached.

This is imperative information for those that chose to work within the law but do not have a MM or a DS firearm. 

I'll shell out the money for one already built. While I could afford the fight in court should it come to that I prefer not to take that risk. 

[vladtepes 1,060]

20 minutes ago, ChrisJM981 said:

 

It says a brace is an accessory, not required for the function of a firearm, and not to count superfluous material in the OAL. That would be anything not necessary for the function of the firearm such as material past the end of the buffer tube. 

To simplify, OAL is measured from the end of the buffer tube to the end of the barrel with any removable barrel devices detached.

This is imperative information for those that chose to work within the law but do not have a MM or a DS firearm. 

I'll shell out the money for one already built. While I could afford the fight in court should it come to that I prefer not to take that risk. 

as I said previously.. having one that is specifically approved.. IMO at least.. is the easiest road to take in this case.. there is finally something almost like a SBR / AR pistol available in NJ.. I would take that as a win and suck up the cost.. 

[samtechlan 23]

Interesting, so how does this affect those who have put a collapsible/foldable brace on a shockwave or tac-14?  Folded most of those are under 26" but folks were measuring them with the brace extended to meet the threshold. 

[vladtepes 1,060]

1 minute ago, samtechlan said:

Interesting, so how does this affect those who have put a collapsible/foldable brace on a shockwave or tac-14?  Folded most of those are under 26" but folks were measuring them with the brace extended to meet the threshold. 

my understanding.. and I am still wrapping my head around it.. is that this only applies to things that have a forward grip.. 

the forward grip deal was they could make a gun that was long enough to not be a pistol.. and have a front grip.. so its not a pistol.. but not have a stock so it wasn't a rifle.. basically loophole city.. 

so then people started duct taping folding braces on everything you could shoot.. front grips.. etc.. 

this letter is IMO just to put some hold on that.. 
I could be wrong.. since I have not fully processed.. but that is what I think is happening.. 

[vladtepes 1,060]

edit to add.. 

a brace is an accessory.. it is not an integral part of the firearm.. so they are not letting people use the brace to make length.. 

there are two types of braces... ones that go over ar15 buffer tubes.. buffer tubes are required for AR function.. so there you would measure with the buffer.. then you have braces on something like a shotgun.. or AK.. no buffer at all.. I THINK you would measure without the brace.. 

[Blacksmythe 71]

On 7/3/2019 at 12:35 PM, JackDaWack said:

Im curious if we will even get a letter clarifying this, the NJSP don't have a law to cite to say you cant build one from a receiver.  If you built a rifle from a receiver did you get permission from the NJSP prior?

 

my thoughts exactly. BUild that shit anyway.

[Screwball 483]

4 hours ago, samtechlan said:

Interesting, so how does this affect those who have put a collapsible/foldable brace on a shockwave or tac-14?  Folded most of those are under 26" but folks were measuring them with the brace extended to meet the threshold. 

Black Aces is likely going to take them to court... being they sold quite a few that required.

That doesn’t even consider the metric crap ton of guns that now are illegal... and not just NJ related. M1A1 Carbines are under 26” folded.

To be fair, didn’t read link. I’m in the cafeteria, which has bad cell service. If something is different, I’ll edit.

[45Doll 5,482]

Well, for anyone interested, here's the latest on OAL measurement from the ATF. Courtesy of my PA law firm.

Here's one paragraph:

Based on the letter, ATF is taking the position that because a stabilizing brace is not an integral part of the firearm, it is not relevant to the overall length measurement. Why does this matter? A number of individuals have been building AR pistols or other similar pistols that have utilized a stabilizing brace. Some have opted to add a vertical foregrip. However, based on this interpretation, those people may find that they have manufactured an “AOW”, which is subject to the restrictions of the National Firearms Act (“NFA”).

[JackDaWack 2,877]

1 hour ago, Screwball said:

Black Aces is likely going to take them to court... being they sold quite a few that required.

That doesn’t even consider the metric crap ton of guns that now are illegal... and not just NJ related. M1A1 Carbines are under 26” folded.

To be fair, didn’t read link. I’m in the cafeteria, which has bad cell service. If something is different, I’ll edit.

This "letter/opinion" does NOT apply to rifles, or folding STOCKS.

[Screwball 483]

1 hour ago, JackDaWack said:

This "letter/opinion" does NOT apply to rifles, or folding STOCKS.

As I said, I didn’t read it... I just did.

However, the premise was that braces were looked at similarly to stocks in regards to OAL. If you start down that road, what’s it going to take to start using that method for stocks?

And even if you don’t touch stocks, you still have a designed firearm (Black Aces DT), which was cleared to be at least 26”, that their “new” opinion puts it as an AOW. NJ buyers purchased them... and they aren’t cheap. If measured folded, you are well under 20”... so AOW.

I have a folding brace on my TAC-14... which was legal. That change makes it 24” OAL instead of 33”. Now... I’m a felon? Going to be in that condition while I’m down in Georgia. Will watch the BS, and figure out what I’m going to do when I get closer. But if that’s the case, not going to get a TAC-13 with a similar brace... as I originally planned.

[JackDaWack 2,877]

Its a shit show for sure. I guess you could put the original handle back on. 

[Blacksmythe 71]

Do it anyway. 

[Ray Ray 3,566]

I will make one with whatever lengths I see fit, end of story.  

[Screwball 483]

Email from Black Aces regarding this (12 Gauge firearms)...

“Unfortunately,  ATF has not provided direction on this opinion and therefore we cannot offer any to you.”

Black Aces DTs might be AOW. Nobody, including the manufacturer, knows.

This is what happens when people say “who cares” about things like bump stocks... ATF shouldn’t be making decisions like this.

[ChrisJM981 919]

1 hour ago, Ray Ray said:

I will make one with whatever lengths I see fit, end of story.  

I'd like to get on board for this, but surely we'd hang alone. 

[JackDaWack 2,877]

14 hours ago, Screwball said:

As I said, I didn’t read it... I just did.

However, the premise was that braces were looked at similarly to stocks in regards to OAL. If you start down that road, what’s it going to take to start using that method for stocks?

And even if you don’t touch stocks, you still have a designed firearm (Black Aces DT), which was cleared to be at least 26”, that their “new” opinion puts it as an AOW. NJ buyers purchased them... and they aren’t cheap. If measured folded, you are well under 20”... so AOW.

I have a folding brace on my TAC-14... which was legal. That change makes it 24” OAL instead of 33”. Now... I’m a felon? Going to be in that condition while I’m down in Georgia. Will watch the BS, and figure out what I’m going to do when I get closer. But if that’s the case, not going to get a TAC-13 with a similar brace... as I originally planned.

Put the original handle on?

The Tac-14 is still legal in its original form. 

The Black ACES DT BATF letter was an extremely sketchy opinion if you read it, and I don't think they submitted their folding version for inspection. I May be wrong but the non-folding version may be still be legal. 

[Blacksmythe 71]

12 minutes ago, ChrisJM981 said:

I'd like to get on board for this, but surely we'd hang alone. 

Do it anyway. More people than you know do this.  MORS TYRANNIS

[PK90 3,547]

I combined all of these opinion letters in my head and have come up with a conclusion that I can live with. 

If a firearm is over 26" with it's brace extended/unfolded, it is a legal non-NFA/Pistol-Grip Firearm. If you collapse/fold the brace it becomes an "AOW". If you shoulder it when firing, it becomes a "SBS/SBR".

Moral: Do what you want and don't flaunt it.

[vladtepes 1,060]

1 hour ago, PK90 said:

I combined all of these opinion letters in my head and have come up with a conclusion that I can live with. 

If a firearm is over 26" with it's brace extended/unfolded, it is a legal non-NFA/Pistol-Grip Firearm. If you collapse/fold the brace it becomes an "AOW". If you shoulder it when firing, it becomes a "SBS/SBR".

Moral: Do what you want and don't flaunt it.

last I checked you could shoulder it.. has that changed?

[runcibleman 28]

2 hours ago, vladtepes said:

last I checked you could shoulder it.. has that changed?

I dunno man. PK90 might have gotten a bit confounded there. The regulations aren't all that complicated, they're just stupidly worded and not assembled into one concise, cohesive document.

In NJ you need to heed the NJSP's guidance as well as naturally obey federal law. I am going to ignore those Black Aces whatever things, as those are strange and anyway, the object of most people's inquiry is building an AR-pattern "firearm" per the NJSP's approved pattern like the Troy Industries A4 "Other Firearm", the Modern Materiel SBF, etc.

You measure the OAL (which has to be greater than 26") now, per the NJSP as well as the ATF, from the received extension/buffer tube to the end of the barrel, or the end of the muzzle device if that is permanently affixed to the barrel. It's just that simple.

The ATF says you can shoulder a brace, the NJSP hasn't said anything to the contrary. You must ALWAYS have a vertical foregrip attached to the firearm to keep it a firearm, and not a pistol. Start with a blank receiver that was never built into a rifle or pistol before, very simple. Don't buy a completely "pistol receiver" as that's obviously already built to be a pistol. Just get a completed or stripped separate lower receiver and that's where you'd start. 

This sort of non-NFA firearm is not an "assault weapon" per NJ law, as the NJSP even point out in their letter, so you can use any flash suppressor etc. Don't use a folding brace as you'll definitely screw yourself with that. It really is quite simple. Please note, I am not a lawyer, but that's my two cents take on it.

I will err doubly on the side of caution and just get a Modern Material SBF, straight from the factory in the permitted configuration, and that'll be that.

[ChrisJM981 919]

1 hour ago, runcibleman said:

You measure the OAL (which has to be greater than 26") now, per the NJSP as well as the ATF, from the received extension/buffer tube to the end of the barrel, or the end of the muzzle device if that is permanently affixed to the barrel. It's just that simple.

The ATF says you can shoulder a brace, the NJSP hasn't said anything to the contrary. You must ALWAYS have a vertical foregrip attached to the firearm to keep it a firearm, and not a pistol. Start with a blank receiver that was never build into a rifle or pistol before, very simple. Don't buy a completely "pistol receiver" as that's obviously already built to be a pistol. Just get a completed or stripped separate lower receiver and that's where  you'd start. It is not an "assault weapon" per NJ law, so you can use any flash suppressor etc. Don't use a folding brace as you'll definitely screw yourself with that. It really is quite simple. Please note, I am not a lawyer, but that's my two cents take on it.

I will err doubly on the side of caution and just get a Modern Material SBF, straight from the factory in the permitted configuration, and that'll be that.

I'm probably in the same boat. I do like to tinker and build things, so I won't rule it out. 

My advice to any home builders is simply to use an 11.5" or longer barrel, make sure to use a vertical foregrip, and remove the brace from the buffer tube to measure the OAL. If you have any questions (I'm not an attorney) feel free to PM me. 

[runcibleman 28]

37 minutes ago, ChrisJM981 said:

I'm probably in the same boat. I do like to tinker and build things, so I won't rule it out. 

My advice to any home builders is simply to use an 11.5" or longer barrel, make sure to use a vertical foregrip, and remove the brace from the buffer tube to measure the OAL. If you have any questions (I'm not an attorney) feel free to PM me. 

Agreed 100%

Also, the Vltor A5 tube is approximately 0.75" longer, just to keep in mind, and should you go for that, with a rifle length buffer spring and a heavy rifle buffer (if not just directly a Vltor A5H2/A5H3/A5H4 buffer even), you can really smooth out the recoil impulse. This is a cheap and reliable way to reduce felt recoil and really make the platform that much more shootable.