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NJ Sues Las Vegas Gun Dealer over Hi-Cap mags shipped to NJ

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I am both shocked and not shocked by this... particularly being NFA.

I am dumbfounded they allowed sale of standard capacity mags to a NJ Resident.

I do wonder if this was knowingly sold... ie. I know I can't buy them, but can you ship them to me pretty please anyway?

OR... this was simply a website that was not designed to flag NJ and restricted states?

 

NFA is a fairly young company so in that sense does not shock me.

 

What is quite disturbing and this will most definitely happen...

Quote

Grewal also wants the company to post a statement on its website telling shoppers that possession of high-capacity magazines is a fourth-degree crime in New Jersey. And he wants New Frontier to hand over five years’ worth of information about which residents bought illegal magazines.

 

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1 minute ago, revenger said:

https://www.nj.com/politics/2019/06/nj-sues-nevada-gun-dealer-that-shipped-banned-100-round-magazine-to-undercover-agents.html

 

well lets see where this goes,   a company selling a perfectly legal item on their end to nj .    wheres the crime?

The fact that they SHIPPED the magazines.... not that a NJ resident came in and picked up mags from their store in NV.

In either case, will be merging with another post that came out of this.

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7 minutes ago, Maksim said:

What is quite disturbing and this will most definitely happen...

 

Quite possibly the real reason for the suit. “We need all your records as part of Discovery..” 

chilling the market and sucking lawyer fees from NFA is a side benefit. 

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1 minute ago, voyager9 said:

Quite possibly the real reason for the suit. “We need all your records as part of Discovery..” 

chilling the market and sucking lawyer fees from NFA is a side benefit. 

A nail that sticks out gets hammered!

NFA is one of those companies that stuck out... leave it at that. lol.   It's Vegas!

This is going to be more prevalent with the whole nexus rules.

In essence, if you are selling to a state, in sufficient volume you are then deemed to have presence in that state and thus are subject to its laws.  That's what NJ is pushing I suppose.

In any case, this push is not new... most recently we had this with the bump stock manufacturers.

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8 minutes ago, Maksim said:

The fact that they SHIPPED the magazines.... not that a NJ resident came in and picked up mags from their store in NV.

In either case, will be merging with another post that came out of this.

Although I see your point, I don't think it is applicable here.  A NV resident is not required to abide by NJ laws while they are in NV.

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3 minutes ago, vjf915 said:

Although I see your point, I don't think it is applicable here.  A NV resident is not required to abide by NJ laws while they are in NV.

Obviously they are not... but I think there is a disconnect?

This was not someone coming in to Nevada and purchasing mags...

This was a NJ resident, from NJ, sitting in NJ, ordering from a company in Nevada, and they shipped a prohibited item to NJ.

The issue is, on their website they list that high capacity mags are prohibited... so why did they ship them?  Personally I think it is negligence and hoping they did not do it willfully or were that stupid to.

Interstate commerce... and the whole sticky issue of the internet...

So what we have is that they are a Nevada company.  They sold to a NJ Resident... their "website" is located in California (cloudflare servers ip).

Of course, I think capacity magazine limits are stupid... BUT you are also stupid to knowingly fall for this crap especially when you are likely to get busted for not collecting sales taxes and you KNOW states like NJ, NY and California do these sting buys... AND they had success getting records in the past.

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1 minute ago, RUTGERS95 said:

will be interesting as it's perfectly legal to sell in their state.  Buyer is responsible to know the rules in their state.  Should get SC look with interstate commerce

Yep.

Definitely a sticky situation but has anyone actually succeeded in such state suits before?  Anyone successful in selling mags or repair kits to CA?

Will reach out to NFA and try to find out... though I think they are going to "No Comment" right now.

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38 minutes ago, Maksim said:

The fact that they SHIPPED the magazines.... not that a NJ resident came in and picked up mags from their store in NV.

In either case, will be merging with another post that came out of this.

That store is a victim of entrapment.  Pure and simple. 

https://www.justice.gov/jm/criminal-resource-manual-645-entrapment-elements

 

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/entrapment-basics-33987.html

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrapment

I'm the furthest thing from a lawyer but seeing Turbin Man in action, reading his papers, seeing the laws he's had to re-write (mag capacity laws vs cops) I believe we have one of the dumbest AGs in the land.

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20 minutes ago, BobA said:

That store is a victim of entrapment.  Pure and simple. 

https://www.justice.gov/jm/criminal-resource-manual-645-entrapment-elements

 

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/entrapment-basics-33987.html

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrapment

I'm the furthest thing from a lawyer but seeing Turbin Man in action, reading his papers, seeing the laws he's had to re-write (mag capacity laws vs cops) I believe we have one of the dumbest AGs in the land.

Bob,

Again, I ask to keep your colorful racist comments to yourself.

But I do ask... how is this entrapment?  I don't think anyone here read the case file?

Did anyone force NFA to sell the mags to the UC?  OR did UC likely just find the NFA website did not prevent sale of standard capacity mags to NJ residents and then did nothing to block the sale when reviewing it?

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3 minutes ago, Maksim said:

Bob,

Again, I ask to keep your colorful racist comments to yourself.

But I do ask... how is this entrapment?  I don't think anyone here read the case file?

Did anyone force NFA to sell the mags to the UC?  OR did UC likely just find the NFA website did not prevent sale of standard capacity mags to NJ residents and then did nothing to block the sale when reviewing it?

If a cop offers a woman money for sex and she takes it without force it's still entrapment.  If a cop offers me pot and I buy it from him it's still entrapment.  They asked hey asked and NFA did. They knew very well what they were ordering and that they couldn't.  They are law enforcement and they can't ask you to do something illegal and then prosecute you for it.  If I ordered it and they shipped it and the cops did their job of investigating it and found out about it then it's not entrapment.  But they are not allowed to go around inviting (which this is) people to break the law and the prosecute. 

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4 minutes ago, BobA said:

If a cop offers a woman money for sex and she takes it without force it's still entrapment.  If a cop offers me pot and I buy it from him it's still entrapment.  They asked hey asked and NFA did. They knew very well what they were ordering and that they couldn't.  They are law enforcement and they can't ask you to do something illegal and then prosecute you for it.  If I ordered it and they shipped it and the cops did their job of investigating it and found out about it then it's not entrapment.  But they are not allowed to go around inviting (which this is) people to break the law and the prosecute. 

So from your own link....

Entrapment vs. Opportunity

The key aspect of entrapment is this: Government agents do not entrap defendants simply by offering them an opportunity to commit a crime. Judges expect people to resist any ordinary temptation to violate the law. An entrapment defense arises when government agents resort to repugnant behavior such as the use of threats, harassment, fraud, or even flattery to induce defendants to commit crimes.

From what we know... and is being reported...  NJ sent NFA a Cease and Desist.... they did not. 

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3 minutes ago, Maksim said:

Judges expect people to resist any ordinary temptation to violate the law.

And on their site does it have the disclaimer of your responsibility to know the laws in your state? Real question because I can't seem to open their site. I'm getting that it's not secure and my browser won't do it.

I believe these are both valid arguments.  Considering these are from non-attorneys it could be an interesting fight. 

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So here is the official complaint...

https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/New-Frontier-Armory-Verified-Complaint.pdf

Quote

4. Despite New Jersey's longstanding prohibitions on magazine capacity, defendant New Frontier Armory, LLC ("Defendant" or "New Frontier Armory") has engaged in the online advertisement, offer for sale, and/or sale of LCMs to New Jersey residents, which range from 15 to 100 rounds, without informing customers that its products are illegal in New Jersey. Defendant has failed to inform New Jersey residents of the consequences of possessing LCMs, and has continued to engage in sales of LCMs to New Jersey residents despite written notice from the Attorney General demanding that it cease such activity.

In short...

UC purchased AR mags and others.  They were shipped to NJ.

NJ sent a letter to NFA, they said they are complying and redesigning site.

Early this year, another UC bought a 100 round drum, some AR mags, etc... they were shipped USPS.

 

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5 minutes ago, BobA said:

Then I guess they feel secure.  But I hope we can follow this and see.  Should be interesting either way no doubt.

So while Nick was merging I lost my saved draft...

Here is the thing, they said they were complying...

image.png

NFA then sold on May 23rd.

The problem for them is, if they feel secure, I don't believe anyone has yet won against NY, NJ, CA in these types of suits.

And it should not be difficult at all for a company like NFA to update their site to flag orders to banned states.

And pretty much lying about not having records going past 90 days? lol.  

Feeling secure would be taking a position... "We are a NV corporation and are not subject to NJ laws."  but saying you are going to comply and then apparently not doing anything about it?

Or perhaps word got around that they would ship non-compliant stuff to ban states?

This is already national news and I would not be surprised if CT, NY, CA and others join in.

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1 minute ago, BobA said:

Could be good if they do.  It might be time for a healthy fight.

Yes... I do think the issue needs to be resolved.

Although I am afraid New Frontier Armory will likely close up shop before that happens.

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Just now, Maksim said:

Although I am afraid New Frontier Armory will likely close up shop before that happens.

I certainly hope not.  I'd like to think if a couple of bakeries can last a good fight fight I'd hope they could/would.  

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