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NJ Sues Las Vegas Gun Dealer over Hi-Cap mags shipped to NJ

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29 minutes ago, Maksim said:

So from your own link....

Entrapment vs. Opportunity

The key aspect of entrapment is this: Government agents do not entrap defendants simply by offering them an opportunity to commit a crime. Judges expect people to resist any ordinary temptation to violate the law. An entrapment defense arises when government agents resort to repugnant behavior such as the use of threats, harassment, fraud, or even flattery to induce defendants to commit crimes.

From what we know... and is being reported...  NJ sent NFA a Cease and Desist.... they did not. 

I hate everything this state and the governor does related to 2A, but as a former LEO (in another state), this case is definitely not entrapment and there is a nationally recognized standard for what is and is not entrapment.  The department I worked for would do compliance checks on establishments selling cigarettes and alcohol.  We would send high-school kids from our Cadet Program into stores to buy cigarettes just to see if they got carded.  If they came out with the cigs or booze, we went in and cited the clerk and/or the business.    

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1 minute ago, BobA said:

I certainly hope not.  I'd like to think if a couple of bakeries can last a good fight fight I'd hope they could/would.  

IF NFA has a hard enough time updating their website to flag NJ orders and allegedly does not have technology to track orders past 90 days... do you think they have the budget to fight NJ, or even multiple states?

I don't know but I doubt any of the other companies sued into oblivion survived?

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12 minutes ago, Regular Guy said:

I hate everything this state and the governor does related to 2A, but as a former LEO (in another state), this case is definitely not entrapment and there is a nationally recognized standard for what is and is not entrapment.  The department I worked for would do compliance checks on establishments selling cigarettes and alcohol.  We would send high-school kids from our Cadet Program into stores to buy cigarettes just to see if they got carded.  If they came out with the cigs or booze, we went in and cited the clerk and/or the business.    

Interesting.  It seems to vary from state to state.  Ohio and Illinois had a problem with it but California doesn't.  CA calls it the Decoy Program.  The Decoy did the buying and not the cop.  I think internet sales could shed a different light on it if fought.  But as pointed out we could never know.

4 minutes ago, voyager9 said:

Leveraging the judicial branch as a weapon. 

Weaponizing the law is as old as time itself. 

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10 hours ago, Krdshrk said:

We met some of the NFA guys at one of the parties at SHOT show - they did not strike me as a large company at all.... I'm actually a bit worried this will close them down.

I hope not and I'm hoping some larger orgs come to their aid

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In his search for the made up LCM and Ghost guns, maybe the AG will finally capture this rare creature. Sorry for the blurry picture, but this is the best image ever taken of the Glockness Monster.

Glockness monster.jpg

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20 minutes ago, MartyZ said:

I know this is probably a long shot but can't NV sue NJ for preying on their businesses?

Technically anyone can sue anyone for anything. But how far it gets is another story.  It all depends on the ambulance chaser you get too.For a quick settlement you can get a "better call Saul" type. My wife has transcribed cases that would make you puke.

But to go for the win it's harder to find a quality attorney and costly.  The state and Feds will never settle outside of injury liability cases and have deeper pockets than most of us.   However, if you have a slam dunk civil rights case lawyers line up at your door to get a piece.  This would be the case if NFA had such a case. But to turn this into a civil rights case would be the challenge. Having it thrown out on merit could be a hope. And all that is based on if they choose to fight or close and re-incorporate.  

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5 hours ago, Howard said:

In his search for the made up LCM and Ghost guns, maybe the AG will finally capture this rare creature. Sorry for the blurry picture, but this is the best image ever taken of the Glockness Monster.

Glockness monster.jpg

Lol. 

No, unfortunately for NfA, them sending 100 round AR drums to a NJ residence despite saying they wouldn’t, is not made up. 

 

I did speak with with two different manufacturers in the last 24 hours and both were shocked NfA defied the cease and desist. 

I don’t see too many people coming in to defend NfA. 

I do think there is a big case about not releasing records, and I hope they don’t, but trying to fight selling 100rnd drums to NJ will be an uphill battle. 

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Gerbil Greaseball can sue all he wants. The purchaser takes title FOB shipping point, in this case legally in Nevada. Greaseball might try reviewing the UCC, Uniform Commercial Code, taught in every business law course. He can't do that, of course. It would require pulling his nose out of Bucky McMurphy's backside. They can persecute the recipient for possession, but that's about it.  

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23 hours ago, RUTGERS95 said:

SC needs to get involved as Fed regs trump state regs and fed regs on firearms are vastly different than many states.  It's time to push back hard

*koff* weed *koff* fuck yo fed regs *koff* we do wat we want *koff*

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22 hours ago, Regular Guy said:

I hate everything this state and the governor does related to 2A, but as a former LEO (in another state), this case is definitely not entrapment and there is a nationally recognized standard for what is and is not entrapment.  The department I worked for would do compliance checks on establishments selling cigarettes and alcohol.  We would send high-school kids from our Cadet Program into stores to buy cigarettes just to see if they got carded.  If they came out with the cigs or booze, we went in and cited the clerk and/or the business.    

Im under the impression that the sale took place in NV.... if so...

"The lawsuit accuses New Frontier Armory violating New Jersey’s Consumer Fraud Act along with state regulations governing illegal products."

If that is the case, then it sounds like neither of these two accusations will hold up in court when challenged. 

The state is relying on this idea that they have jurisdiction over the internet and specifically advertising that ends up on a persons computer in NJ.

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14 minutes ago, JackDaWack said:

The state is relying on this idea that they have jurisdiction over the internet and specifically advertising that ends up on a persons computer in NJ.

Yes. It’s more of an ICC issue too. Fingers crossed they fight. 

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8 minutes ago, JackDaWack said:

Im under the impression that the sale took place in NV.... if so...

"The lawsuit accuses New Frontier Armory violating New Jersey’s Consumer Fraud Act along with state regulations governing illegal products."

If that is the case, then it sounds like neither of these two accusations will hold up in court when challenged. 

The state is relying on this idea that they have jurisdiction over the internet and specifically advertising that ends up on a persons computer in NJ.

So in reality... NO... the sale did not take place in Nevada... the sale took place in California, where the computer servers are located.

This is a much bigger issue than simply whether an out of state company needs to follow local laws.

Where this is all being focused right now is why online retailers are collecting sales taxes for states which let's be honest, almost no one declared on their tax returns.

In short... the theory is, if you are advertising in a certain place, you are conducting business there, you are responsible for those local laws.

Once again, NO ONE is talking about a NJ resident going to Nevada to buy mags... but rather this is a company allowing sales to NJ residents, despite knowing they were not allowed in NJ and saying they were going to stop that.  

They were willingly accepting money from people for products they knew they could not legally own and then sent them via USPS.

Speaking with a few manufacturers since this came out, both were dumbfounded they were still shipping mags after the first cease desist.

I would hope that this is NFA deciding to take a stand and fight... but I don't believe this is why.

This will be interesting to follow but I don't think this is going to end well for NFA... 

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So here is the timeline for those too lazy to read the full complaint.

August 2nd, 2018 - UC places an order for 3 30 round PMAGS.  UC sent email asking them to confirm the order and they said they were processing it.

August 6th, 2018 - UC picks up package.

January 7th, AG issued a cease and desist letter demanding NFA stop advertising, selling and shipping standard capacity mags to NJ.  They also warned NFA to stop within 15 days or they would be facing legal action.

January 22nd, NFA stated they had not sold standard capacity mags in prior 90 days and notified the distribution staff of new jersey laws and added a statement to the website.  (Did they really not know NJ is a banned state?)

May 23rd, UC ordered a 15 round Glock 19 mag, Lancer 30 round AR mags, and a KCI 100 round Drum.  NFA then confirmed the order and sent email it is being shipped and gave a USPS tracking number.

So they had multiple opportunities to merely walk away with their hand slapped.

The more effective thing would be to say... "We are following all NV laws, go pound sand."  IF they were going for the no federal laws thing.

If they are going to try and fight this, this will surely be hundreds of thousands of dollars while their business gets hurt and so do their customers.  

Or who knows, maybe GOA or NRA is behind this and was waiting for this lawsuit?

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On 6/19/2019 at 7:34 PM, Maksim said:

Bob,

Again, I ask to keep your colorful racist comments to yourself.

But I do ask... how is this entrapment?  I don't think anyone here read the case file?

Did anyone force NFA to sell the mags to the UC?  OR did UC likely just find the NFA website did not prevent sale of standard capacity mags to NJ residents and then did nothing to block the sale when reviewing it?

Maks,  no law was broken by the seller.  NO Nevada or Federal law was broken.  NJ law has ZERO meaning to anyone not in NJ.  Who broke the law?  The NJ purchasers broke the law.  And even funnier is that the purchaser being LE, are not prohibited.

There is no mention of crime just a CIVIL suit. 

 

23 hours ago, Maksim said:

IF NFA has a hard enough time updating their website to flag NJ orders and allegedly does not have technology to track orders past 90 days... do you think they have the budget to fight NJ, or even multiple states?

I don't know but I doubt any of the other companies sued into oblivion survived?

What budget is needed?  You don't think there will be a countersuit for entrapment/ harassment?  You think there might be a few lawyers out there willing to take the case on a back end payout?

It's just NJ citizens that are gonna pay out the wazoo.

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1 hour ago, PeteF said:

Maks,  no law was broken by the seller.  NO Nevada or Federal law was broken.  NJ law has ZERO meaning to anyone not in NJ.  Who broke the law?  The NJ purchasers broke the law.  And even funnier is that the purchaser being LE, are not prohibited.

There is no mention of crime just a CIVIL suit. 

 

What budget is needed?  You don't think there will be a countersuit for entrapment/ harassment?  You think there might be a few lawyers out there willing to take the case on a back end payout?

It's just NJ citizens that are gonna pay out the wazoo.

I agree that they did not break the law but are they innocent?  And of course by having website accseible to NJ residents and taking orders from NJ residents are they not soliciting business? I don't know.

i don't think they were entrapped at all so there is back end payout... otherwise previous cases would have paid out.

keep in mind, this is not the first retailer to get sued. 

I did not check on the health of the previous ones that got sued but the manufacturers and retailers I spoke with recently, are in no way planning on making themselves targets.

is Brownells, Cabelas, PSA, AIM or others selling 30 rounders to NJ? And they have bigger legal budgets.

If it was good for business every major online retailer would sell into ban states yet they choose to follow local laws.

again I don't agree on mag limits, but brushing this off as a no big deal and that they did not break laws is not wise.

this is not simply about gun laws, or will not end up being, but rather if online retailers will have to follow local laws of where they have the site accessible.

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12 hours ago, Maksim said:

I agree that they did not break the law but are they innocent?  

Pretty much by definition, Yes

And of course by having website accseible to NJ residents and taking orders from NJ residents are they not soliciting business? I don't know.  A company is supposed to control the WWW?  World Wide Web except NJ? I think not.

i don't think they were entrapped at all so there is back end payout... otherwise previous cases would have paid out.  NJ has no legal jurisdiction outside of NJ,  pure and simple harassment, to even try and bring a case against them.  Grubner knows no laws were broken hence the civil suit.

 

 

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On ‎6‎/‎19‎/‎2019 at 7:14 PM, BobA said:

That store is a victim of entrapment.  Pure and simple.

This is a good point ….. I didn't read the links (that I imagine defines entrapment). But its my understanding that if law enforcement solicits one to commit a crime that covers it. An under cover agent is guilty of entrapment I they for instance: offer to sell you drugs or sex or they approach you and offer to do a hit for instance. This/these investigators approached NFA and said I want to buy (over 10 rd) magazines and I want you to ship them to New Jersey. THE COP ASKED THEM TO BREAK THE LAW! Sounds like entrapment to me?

 

On a side bar..... Does the  below mean if New Jersey legalizes pot, Licenses dispensaries and collects taxes on its sales, they will require these dispensaries to post signs saying "NJ licensed this establishment, condones its operation and profits from its sale by taxation in violation of U.S. federal law. By purchasing and or using the product sold in this establishment you are also in violation of U.S. federal law."  ?????

4. Despite New Jersey's longstanding prohibitions on magazine capacity, defendant New Frontier Armory, LLC ("Defendant" or "New Frontier Armory") has engaged in the online advertisement, offer for sale, and/or sale of LCMs to New Jersey residents, which range from 15 to 100 rounds, without informing customers that its products are illegal in New Jersey. Defendant has failed to inform New Jersey residents of the consequences of possessing LCMs, and has continued to engage in sales of LCMs to New Jersey residents despite written notice from the Attorney General demanding that it cease such activity.

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This is a civil suit... Not a criminal prosecution.. does entrapment even count? 

If it's a civil suit... The other issue is they argue NFA knew NJ residents can't own what they sold... But the counter argument is the NJSP knew they couldn't own what they were buying either. 

Another counter argument is the NFA has on their website listed the person buying the magazines is responsible for know if they are legal to own in their state. A basic disclaimer should be enough to subvert any consumer fraud claims. 

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2 hours ago, revenger said:

NFA should counter sue ,  civil rights of NJ purchasers are being violated .  2A,  shall not be infringed  

Seems like the Rights of The People only matter in certain states and at a certain price and for a select group of people. That text in bold is meaningless, apparently.

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On 6/20/2019 at 8:26 PM, PeteF said:

Maks,  no law was broken by the seller.  NO Nevada or Federal law was broken.  NJ law has ZERO meaning to anyone not in NJ.  Who broke the law?  The NJ purchasers broke the law.  And even funnier is that the purchaser being LE, are not prohibited.

There is no mention of crime just a CIVIL suit. 

 

What budget is needed?  You don't think there will be a countersuit for entrapment/ harassment?  You think there might be a few lawyers out there willing to take the case on a back end payout?

It's just NJ citizens that are gonna pay out the wazoo.

I wonder if this would be a factor in their defense?

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New Frontier Armory will in all likelihood lose a civil suit as all that is required for the plaintiff to prevail is a preponderance of the evidence.

The problem is exactly how does the plaintiff, the Peoples Republic Of New Germany collect on the civil judgement?

Any judgement issued by a NJ court is only good in NJ. As long as NFA doesn't do business with a financial institution that has a physical presence in NJ then NJ can't collect on the judgement. A NJ court order is only good in NJ. A court officer can go to Nevada and try to collect on the judgement but the order has no validity in any state other than NJ.

NJ can file the civil case in Federal court but I don't think NJ wants to take that chance.

 

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9 minutes ago, brucin said:

New Frontier Armory will in all likelihood lose a civil suit as all that is required for the plaintiff to prevail is a preponderance of the evidence.

The problem is exactly how does the plaintiff, the Peoples Republic Of New Germany collect on the civil judgement?

Any judgement issued by a NJ court is only good in NJ. As long as NFA doesn't do business with a financial institution that has a physical presence in NJ then NJ can't collect on the judgement. A NJ court order is only good in NJ. A court officer can go to Nevada and try to collect on the judgement but the order has no validity in any state other than NJ.

NJ can file the civil case in Federal court but I don't think NJ wants to take that chance.

 

So I looked up a few of the previous cases that CA and San Francisco brought up against companies selling "magazine repair kits," aka a complete mag taken apart.

Those companies, none of which were located in California, all decided to settle and agreed to pay a $23k fine.

I am fairly positive NFA will end up doing the same thing... agree not to sell to NJ and will end up paying a fine. 

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First there is no entrapment here. You have to have a crime. There is no crime as it's legal to have >10 Rd magazines in Nevada.  It is illegal to possess them in NJ, with exceptions.

That's why Grewal filed a civil suit.  He's grandstanding and I'm sure he'll use his influence to get the "right" judge assigned.

As @brucin noted an out of state court order has no bearing with very few exceptions (child custody is one).

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