JackDaWack 2,895 Posted June 24, 2019 This thread is for documenting the ATF and NJSP letters of interpretation, and citing Federal and State laws. Please keep thread chatter to a minimum and only post references to letters or laws. I will try and keep this thread updated and feel free to post any relevant updates not listed here. Please read the letters in full if you are interested in this. Disclaimer: I AM NOT A LAWYER Below are the required documents and legislative citations in order to assemble or purchase a legal NON-NFA Firearm. This is a collection of results based on Reading state and federal law, and ATF + NJSP documents regarding the classification of Items and parts regulated in their assembly. Please be advised this may not be a complete list of relevant information. New letters can change the status of any lawful interpretation. Firearms are not currently(June 2019) regulated under NJ's AWB. ATF Letter on Stabilizing Braces and how they can be shouldered This article about adding VFGs to AR pistols contains the ATF letter outlining how to construct a non-NFA firearm on pages 2-3 This contains the NJSP letter to the FFLs detailing the legality of the 590 Shockwave and Tac 14. the relevant text is : "Firearms with similar design and structure must fall within this definition of a firearm and must not have been manufactured as a 'shotgun' (NJSA 2C:39-1n) or meet the Federal requirement of 'any other weapon (AOW)' which measures less then 26 inches in overall length. The firearm must also comply with all BATF requirements." Also the NJSP definition of "substatially identical" The relevant text: The term "substantial" means pertaining to the substance, matter, material or essence of a thing. The term "identical" means exactly the same. Hence, a firearm is substantially identical to another only if it is identical in all material, essential respects. A firearm is not substantially identical to a listed assault firearm unless it is identical except for differences which do not alter the essential nature of the firearm. We also have the States definitions of: "Rifle" means any firearm designed to be fired from the shoulder and using the energy of the explosive in a fixed metallic cartridge to fire a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger. "Sawed-off shotgun" means any shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length measured from the breach to the muzzle, or a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length measured from the breach to the muzzle, or any firearm made from a rifle or a shotgun, whether by alteration, or otherwise, if such firearm as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches. NJSP Letter: LINK HERE. From the NJSP: "The New Jersey State Police Firearms Unit finds that the submitted Troy Industries A4 "other firearm" as well as the Dark Storm Industries DS-15 Non-NFA Firearm Typhoon are legal for sale in the State of New Jersey and are NOT considered to be an "assault firearm." This opinion is based upon the two firearms reviewed, however if the design or dimensions change from those samples, it may change the classification of the firearm. ". If you would like to purchase one please contact ModerMaterial https://modernmateriel.com/ Dark Storm Industries https://www.dark-storm.com/ Or Troy https://worldoftroy.com/shop-now/ NO STATE LAWS have been cited or found that require the firearm be purchased complete in the state of NJ. The ATF has opinionated you may assemble one in the VFG letters on Page 2. If your intentions are to build one from a receiver please read the following: The ATF advises all manufactures and FFLS to record the “TYPE” of firearm as accurately possible when completing their required records. To satisfy the ATF, your build receiver cannot ever been classified as a long gun rifle or shotgun by any of these entities prior. To clarify, the ATF is very specific as to how receivers are recorded… and that they are never classified as rifles, shotguns, or pistols. Check with your FFL that they are following this guideline when you pick up the receiver. This should satisfy the requirement for the build in completing a firearm from a receiver, and not a long gun. UPDATE 6/4/19 NJSP have opinion that you MAY NOT build a "firearm" in NJ as a precautionary measure to prevent you from violating laws in regard to assembling assault weapons, or NJ's constructive possession law. As it stands this is merely a precautionary statement to help people avoid violating laws in the assembly of a "firearm". Which suggests if you are able to avoid breaking the laws mentioned in the notice, it is legal to do so. Please keep your firearms assembled at all times if you run the risk of violating NJ's AWB. Make sure you do not have any parts that can be used to readily assemble or modify an existing rifle into an Assault weapon according to NJ Constructive Possession Law. Based on the above information the requirements for owning or assembling a Non-NFA Firearm in NJ: State: more restricting Since pistols are limited in weight, you cannot build one in this configuration. -Your build must contain a VFG, per the NJSP and ATF This will give you “Firearm” Status in NJ Federal: Cannot have stock (Not a rifle), Use a brace either listed in the ATF letters, or one that is substantially identical Your VFG must be vertical, use one that is either listed in the ATF/NJSP document or is substantially identical(Not a pistol)… angled grips don’t count. You must have OAL >26”, since you added a VFG (Not an AOW) (this is a federal NFA requirement)(No NJ Mandate.) Update: 6/5/19 OAL is Measured with a folding brace in the collapsed position, or if the brace is fixed it will be removed and if present the extension(buffer tube) is measured.(Document below) https://princelaw.files.wordpress.com/2019/07/atf-folded-brace_redacted.pdf Failure to meet specific requirements above will make you a criminal. This is not an endorsement for the purchase or assembly of Non-NFA Firearms. The Remainder of this thread is for further citations of the law or ATF NJSP letters that would enhance our understanding of purchasing and assembling these types of firearms. This may not be a complete list of requirements and new updated information could create addition restrictions. Please check and follow ALL Local State and Federal laws prior to any action. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PK90 3,570 Posted June 24, 2019 Here is another collection of letters that I am sure you are aware of. Some are duplicates of your posting. Hmmm. I posted a single link and all the above was populated. If the above is not pertinent to this topic, I'll try and edit out what I posted. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Krdshrk 3,877 Posted June 25, 2019 Thread pinned for visibility Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
124gr9mm 859 Posted June 25, 2019 Thanks for sharing. Interesting reading... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisJM981 924 Posted June 25, 2019 Thanks for putting this in one spot. Are there any opinion letters for Length of Pull requirements for a non-NFA firearm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackDaWack 2,895 Posted June 25, 2019 37 minutes ago, ChrisJM981 said: Thanks for putting this in one spot. Are there any opinion letters for Length of Pull requirements for a non-NFA firearm? http://shockwavetechnologies.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/ATF-approval-letter-31OCT17.pdf pg 5-6 They refer to modifying the existing length of pull to that of an average rifle could constitute a redesign of the product. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PK90 3,570 Posted June 25, 2019 3 minutes ago, JackDaWack said: http://shockwavetechnologies.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/ATF-approval-letter-31OCT17.pdf pg 5-6 They refer to modifying the existing length of pull to that of an average rifle could constitute a redesign of the product. Correct. A Pistol or SBF does not have a stock, so there is no LOP associated with it. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
El Jefe 49 Posted May 27, 2020 What is the exact wording that needs to be in the transfer forms to the NJ FFL? Is it "Other Firearm" or "Other Non NFA" ? I ordered one from out of state and want to give them the exact wording so it is clear its a complete weapon and I didn't build it..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackDaWack 2,895 Posted May 27, 2020 24 minutes ago, El Jefe said: What is the exact wording that needs to be in the transfer forms to the NJ FFL? Is it "Other Firearm" or "Other Non NFA" ? I ordered one from out of state and want to give them the exact wording so it is clear its a complete weapon and I didn't build it..... I don't believe it works that way, which is why this whole build vs buy argument is stupid. The FFL will transfer it as an "other", nothing signifies if its a comple or incomplete firearm. Its just a check box on form 4473. The NJ system may have a different check box for NJ documentation, but they should know what to do. There are no transfer forms to your FFL, when they received the weapon they log it into their book by make and model and type, and transfer it accordingly to you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
El Jefe 49 Posted May 27, 2020 1 hour ago, JackDaWack said: I don't believe it works that way, which is why this whole build vs buy argument is stupid. The FFL will transfer it as an "other", nothing signifies if its a comple or incomplete firearm. Its just a check box on form 4473. The NJ system may have a different check box for NJ documentation, but they should know what to do. There are no transfer forms to your FFL, when they received the weapon they log it into their book by make and model and type, and transfer it accordingly to you. Thanks! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
El Jefe 49 Posted July 11, 2020 On 5/27/2020 at 3:50 PM, JackDaWack said: I don't believe it works that way, which is why this whole build vs buy argument is stupid. The FFL will transfer it as an "other", nothing signifies if its a comple or incomplete firearm. Its just a check box on form 4473. The NJ system may have a different check box for NJ documentation, but they should know what to do. There are no transfer forms to your FFL, when they received the weapon they log it into their book by make and model and type, and transfer it accordingly to you. I just got my new NON NFA and you are correct, they copied make and model from the lower, asked me what the caliber is, and wrote it down as other. I believe that a lower would be registered exactly the same, so no one can really tell if you bought it or built it...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Krdshrk 3,877 Posted July 12, 2020 7 hours ago, El Jefe said: I just got my new NON NFA and you are correct, they copied make and model from the lower, asked me what the caliber is, and wrote it down as other. I believe that a lower would be registered exactly the same, so no one can really tell if you bought it or built it...... On the ATF 4473 a stripped lower is marked as "other firearm" checkbox in section B 16. In section D question 27, however it's put in as a receiver. An actual other firearm would be put in as "other" I believe. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eyeinstine 241 Posted July 12, 2020 Anyone know of a way or how to find out what an FFL entered/listed in the appropriate boxes on the 4473? Lets say you originally bought a stripped lower and didnt have a NON-NFA build in mind, so you didnt ask or question your FFL doing the transfer. My FFL hands me the blank 4473, i fill in my part and hand it back.. He does his thing, whatever it all is while i browse around. When he's done, i pay him he hands me some papers and my stripped receiver. Amongst the papers, a copy of the 4473 is NOT included. So who knows what he filled in or what boxes he checked off on the 4473. Any way to find out months or years after the fact??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisJM981 924 Posted July 12, 2020 2 hours ago, eyeinstine said: Anyone know of a way or how to find out what an FFL entered/listed in the appropriate boxes on the 4473? Lets say you originally bought a stripped lower and didnt have a NON-NFA build in mind, so you didnt ask or question your FFL doing the transfer. My FFL hands me the blank 4473, i fill in my part and hand it back.. He does his thing, whatever it all is while i browse around. When he's done, i pay him he hands me some papers and my stripped receiver. Amongst the papers, a copy of the 4473 is NOT included. So who knows what he filled in or what boxes he checked off on the 4473. Any way to find out months or years after the fact??? Here is a guide to how long FFLs need to keep their records. Whether or not they want to dig it out for you is another question. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackDaWack 2,895 Posted July 13, 2020 13 hours ago, eyeinstine said: Anyone know of a way or how to find out what an FFL entered/listed in the appropriate boxes on the 4473? Lets say you originally bought a stripped lower and didnt have a NON-NFA build in mind, so you didnt ask or question your FFL doing the transfer. My FFL hands me the blank 4473, i fill in my part and hand it back.. He does his thing, whatever it all is while i browse around. When he's done, i pay him he hands me some papers and my stripped receiver. Amongst the papers, a copy of the 4473 is NOT included. So who knows what he filled in or what boxes he checked off on the 4473. Any way to find out months or years after the fact??? You can make a stripped lower into anything you want, so as long as it is transferred as an Other/receiver youre GTG(and it should have been by Law and ATF regs). There is some REAL grey area turning a receiver into a pistol in NJ, but lets avoid that scenario to simplify the response. If you built a non-NFA other, then your 4473 would have "other" checked off in B16, and receiver written in D27. Which is perfectly fine. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackDaWack 2,895 Posted July 13, 2020 On 7/11/2020 at 9:14 PM, Krdshrk said: On the ATF 4473 a stripped lower is marked as "other firearm" checkbox in section B 16. In section D question 27, however it's put in as a receiver. An actual other firearm would be put in as "other" I believe. I believe this is correct. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PK90 3,570 Posted July 13, 2020 In NJ, you would have had to use a Permit to Purchase in order to build a pistol. I believe Others are bought using a COE. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eyeinstine 241 Posted July 13, 2020 40 minutes ago, JackDaWack said: You can make a stripped lower into anything you want, so as long as it is transferred as an Other/receiver youre GTG(and it should have been by Law and ATF regs). There is some REAL grey area turning a receiver into a pistol in NJ, but lets avoid that scenario to simplify the response. If you built a non-NFA other, then your 4473 would have "other" checked off in B16, and receiver written in D27. Which is perfectly fine. Thanks for the info! My FFL in an antique dealer first; FFL is secondary and not the main business.. I sense i may have been the first stripped lowers he tansfered.. hence my concern now, as to how the paper work was done.. I picked up the two pack non-roll mark anderson stripped lower deal right before the covid shiit hit.. Two if them, in my hand, shipped, tax, transfered, for about 70$ total invested.... Ohhh man those were the good ol' days.. Hoping we see those kinds of deals again in the not too distant future... My first stripped lower i picked up from Garden State Shooting Center back in the fall.. I think its safe to assume they transferred it right as they had a whole display case of various stripped lowers, and i bought this one right out of their case.. So if i do build a non-nfa, ill just use that lower and leave the other two for AR type builds.... And yes, if you read this far, you just realized i have three stripped lowers for months and i aint done chit with them yet.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackDaWack 2,895 Posted July 13, 2020 42 minutes ago, PK90 said: In NJ, you would have had to use a Permit to Purchase in order to build a pistol. I believe Others are bought using a COE. That's a logical conclusion, but I still don't see the statutes that reinforce it You only need a p2p for transferring and purchasing handguns. If you buy a reciever, nothing in NJ law says I can't use it to make a pistol. Its a moot point since you cant make one legally anyway without it falling in the "assault" category. But then again, If i bought a glock frame, it would be transferred as "other" receiver on form 4473, if NJSP require a P2P for it, again i understand the logic, but the classification of the item doesn't meet the standard. I have not done this, but if the FFLs are directed to put reciever info on a p2p it not really supported by statute. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tony357 386 Posted July 13, 2020 https://techopsinternational.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Redacted-State-Police-Letter.pdf Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackDaWack 2,895 Posted July 13, 2020 9 hours ago, tony357 said: https://techopsinternational.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Redacted-State-Police-Letter.pdf ? isnt this old news? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tony357 386 Posted July 14, 2020 10 hours ago, JackDaWack said: ? isnt this old news? maybe be but this is all you need unless your making mods. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites