Maksim 1,504 Posted August 25, 2019 3 minutes ago, vladtepes said: you hit the nail on the head.. will there be further restriction? may you not be able to SBR one day? sure.. all possible.. will they take SBRs on a federal level? unlikely... so moving to a more regulated category IMO at least.. moves the gun out of the "look at what everyone is doing" category.. Well... let's take a step back... There is PRe-86 machine guns and then there are SBRs. Pistol braces are a way around SBRs and most sane gun owners know that. I think the solution is simply reclassify braces same as stocks. It's a never ending cycle... ATF creates law to regulate a loophole.... industry comes out with new product with a new loophole.... people go crazy buying it.... crazy people do crazy stuff... ATF creates law to regulate a loophole. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
samtechlan 23 Posted August 25, 2019 19 minutes ago, Maksim said: Well... let's take a step back... There is PRe-86 machine guns and then there are SBRs. Pistol braces are a way around SBRs and most sane gun owners know that. I think the solution is simply reclassify braces same as stocks. It's a never ending cycle... ATF creates law to regulate a loophole.... industry comes out with new product with a new loophole.... people go crazy buying it.... crazy people do crazy stuff... ATF creates law to regulate a loophole. I don't think anyone should minimize the importance of loopholes and the exploitation of same when it comes gun laws. Hell the mere presence today in 2019 of ar's on nj gun store shelves is a huge loophole. The intent of Florio and others was not to ban flash riders or bayonet lugs or threads on a barrel---it was of course to ban ar's in general, period. We in nj just like those in Cali benefit from those loophole; sbf non nfa here and in ct, the bullet button in cali etc. are all part of the same vital tradition of demonstrating the utter stupidity of the gun control regime. And here's the downside of fleeing the braces. The common usage of a firearm--go reread Scalia in HELLER--is crucial to their protection under 2nd Amendment jurisprudence. The more common Ar', Ak's, pistol braces, etc., etc. are the more difficult it is to ban them. In essence the gun culture, the overall gun culture matters, a lot. In 1897 the Supremes approved legal government mandated segregation in Plessy, 57 years later the court ruled that same was unconstitutional in Brown and they did so unanimously. What changed?? Certainly not the 13th, 14th or 15th Amendment since they were all in place in 1897. Answer: the culture changed esp. in the North and the Ct followed suit. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Maksim 1,504 Posted August 25, 2019 7 minutes ago, samtechlan said: I don't think anyone should minimize the importance of loopholes and the exploitation of same when it comes gun laws. Hell the mere presence today in 2019 of ar's on nj gun store shelves is a huge loophole. The intent of Florio and others was not to ban flash riders or bayonet lugs or threads on a barrel---it was of course to ban ar's in general, period. We in nj just like those in Cali benefit from those loophole; sbf non nfa here and in ct, the bullet button in cali etc. are all part of the same vital tradition of demonstrating the utter stupidity of the gun control regime. And here's the downside of fleeing the braces. The common usage of a firearm--go reread Scalia in HELLER--is crucial to their protection under 2nd Amendment jurisprudence. The more common Ar', Ak's, pistol braces, etc., etc. are the more difficult it is to ban them. In essence the gun culture, the overall gun culture matters, a lot. In 1897 the Supremes approved legal government mandated segregation in Plessy, 57 years later the court ruled that same was unconstitutional in Brown and they did so unanimously. What changed?? Certainly not the 13th, 14th or 15th Amendment since they were all in place in 1897. Answer: the culture changed esp. in the North and the Ct followed suit. I am not going to go into whether or not gun laws are effective as that is besides the point... In essence you are saying that if we think the law is stupid... we should do anything we can to get around it? Bump stocks are stupid... pistol braces for the 99% of people are stupid (the 1% being people who actually use them as braces), and while I do think they are silly and would not get one for myself, I do value the right for them to exist and I agree they help the 2A. BUT... I don't think gun owners have a lot to complain about as they were somehow wronged because the intent of those products was to get around existing laws... in particular the Braces which were stocks with a velcro strap which avoids the $200 tax stamp. Bump stocks... machine guns for the poor. lol. BUT as we saw... when we have crazy nut jobs recently commit mass shootings with those very same loopholes, it only gives Democrats more ammunition. AFter all, no sane gun owner would conceal carry an "AR Pistol" and no self respecting gun owner actually wanted a bump stock. lol.(especially when you can bump fire without it.) All of these innovations are largely for the industry to make as much money as they can before it gets shut down. It's the gun owners who get stuck holding the bag. On the current "other firearm" trend, 3 of the companies I spoke with over the past month or two are shocked that they lasted this long. And a number of large firearms manufacturers were shocked the pistol braces were let go as long as they have. Heck... even the folks at the NFA organizations were shocked... BUT pretty much all are in agreement... "A nail that sticks out get hammered." This is especially critical for massive trends. The faster they grow, the more attention they are going to attract. So I guess in essence... yes I do agree NFA laws are kind of silly, BUT let's discuss and go after those... rather than explicit loopholes made to get around existing gun laws. Because from the outside... as these shootings do... it only reinforces the idea of... "See, those gun nuts don't care about laws and will do anything they can to get around them. They don't even want to discuss them." A great example of how it should be handled is what they are doing in VT or NH with suppressors. Going after and educating liberal democrats about hearing protection. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
samtechlan 23 Posted August 25, 2019 57 minutes ago, Maksim said: I am not going to go into whether or not gun laws are effective as that is besides the point... In essence you are saying that if we think the law is stupid... we should do anything we can to get around it? Bump stocks are stupid... pistol braces for the 99% of people are stupid (the 1% being people who actually use them as braces), and while I do think they are silly and would not get one for myself, I do value the right for them to exist and I agree they help the 2A. BUT... I don't think gun owners have a lot to complain about as they were somehow wronged because the intent of those products was to get around existing laws... in particular the Braces which were stocks with a velcro strap which avoids the $200 tax stamp. Bump stocks... machine guns for the poor. lol. BUT as we saw... when we have crazy nut jobs recently commit mass shootings with those very same loopholes, it only gives Democrats more ammunition. AFter all, no sane gun owner would conceal carry an "AR Pistol" and no self respecting gun owner actually wanted a bump stock. lol.(especially when you can bump fire without it.) All of these innovations are largely for the industry to make as much money as they can before it gets shut down. It's the gun owners who get stuck holding the bag. On the current "other firearm" trend, 3 of the companies I spoke with over the past month or two are shocked that they lasted this long. And a number of large firearms manufacturers were shocked the pistol braces were let go as long as they have. Heck... even the folks at the NFA organizations were shocked... BUT pretty much all are in agreement... "A nail that sticks out get hammered." This is especially critical for massive trends. The faster they grow, the more attention they are going to attract. So I guess in essence... yes I do agree NFA laws are kind of silly, BUT let's discuss and go after those... rather than explicit loopholes made to get around existing gun laws. Because from the outside... as these shootings do... it only reinforces the idea of... "See, those gun nuts don't care about laws and will do anything they can to get around them. They don't even want to discuss them." A great example of how it should be handled is what they are doing in VT or NH with suppressors. Going after and educating liberal democrats about hearing protection. I think you miss the larger point that every AR with a pinned stock and muzzle brake being sold at RTSP or Bullet Hole is by definition a loophole. The intent of Florio, Murphy et al. Is NOT to ban flash riders, bayonet lugs and threaded barrels but to ban the actual weapons. We the actual gun owners in NJ and the manufacturers benefit because we have been exploiting this loophole for decades. This type of resourcefulness should be applauded and encouraged. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vladtepes 1,060 Posted August 25, 2019 1 hour ago, samtechlan said: I think you miss the larger point that every AR with a pinned stock and muzzle brake being sold at RTSP or Bullet Hole is by definition a loophole. The intent of Florio, Murphy et al. Is NOT to ban flash riders, bayonet lugs and threaded barrels but to ban the actual weapons. Agree with this completely I don't have a pistol brace because I care about paying the $200.. I have a pistol brace because filing NFA paperwork is annoying.. and additionally.. keeping something like my Scorpion as a pistol has other added benefits over NFA.. I can bring it to any state that honors my carry permit.. and keep it loaded in the vehicle like a pistol.. technically I can do the same in PA with a SBR.. but a pistol with a brace is less of a gray area.. 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PK90 3,569 Posted August 25, 2019 Keep your brace for interstate travel. You can go back and forth from Title I to Title II without issue. I will be Form 1ing all my pistols, then over time replacing the braces with stocks, but will keep the braces just in case. 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blacksmythe 71 Posted August 25, 2019 I like the braces. I always wanted to run one with out too many strange looks or blood suckers asking questions here in NJ. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
High Exposure 5,635 Posted August 26, 2019 The practical advantage to a brace is it makes it a pistol. The firearm is therefore treated as a pistol under the law making it legal to carry loaded/CCW in a car vs a rifle that must be unloaded in most states. It is also easier when transporting over state line to just bring your “pistol” that it is getting “permission” to travel to another state with an SBR. A $200 tax stamp is really negligible in the cost of the weapon when you consider a quality pistol brace setup costs, at a minimum, an extra $100 over what you would have spent on a regular stock anyway. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shane45 807 Posted August 26, 2019 3 hours ago, PK90 said: Keep your brace for interstate travel. You can go back and forth from Title I to Title II without issue. I will be Form 1ing all my pistols, then over time replacing the braces with stocks, but will keep the braces just in case. PK, that is exactly my question. If the same firearm has the brace on and is a pistol at that time, it's not subject to NFA while in that config? Or only when you swap for the stock? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
carl_g 568 Posted August 26, 2019 All this for a rifle that is 2 inches shorter?? I don’t get the hype. 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
samtechlan 23 Posted August 26, 2019 7 minutes ago, carl_g said: All this for a rifle that is 2 inches shorter?? I don’t get the hype. MM uses a barrel under 12" so it's at least 4 inches not two. Plus can use flash hider, no need to permanently attach and the brace is adjustable. All things previously unavailable to NJ. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
carl_g 568 Posted August 26, 2019 4 minutes ago, samtechlan said: MM uses a barrel under 12" so it's at least 4 inches not two. Plus can use flash hider, no need to permanently attach and the brace is adjustable. All things previously unavailable to NJ. My bad.. still don’t get the hype. Flash hider oooooooh! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PK90 3,569 Posted August 26, 2019 6 minutes ago, samtechlan said: MM uses a barrel under 12" so it's at least 4 inches not two. Plus can use flash hider, no need to permanently attach and the brace is adjustable. All things previously unavailable to NJ. 16" rifle (14.5" + 1.5") includes muzzle device. 12.5" non-NFA plus 1.5" muzzle device equals 14". Hence 2" difference. Plus you can put a stock on the rifle. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
samtechlan 23 Posted August 26, 2019 3 minutes ago, PK90 said: 16" rifle (14.5" + 1.5") includes muzzle device. 12.5" non-NFA plus 1.5" muzzle device equals 14". Hence 2" difference. Plus you can put a stock on the rifle. No on the 14.5 you NEED the 1.5 device and it must be permanently attached. On the non nfa sbf you dont even need a device and if you choose to have one it is removable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
samtechlan 23 Posted August 26, 2019 10 minutes ago, PK90 said: 16" rifle (14.5" + 1.5") includes muzzle device. 12.5" non-NFA plus 1.5" muzzle device equals 14". Hence 2" difference. Plus you can put a stock on the rifle. And the stock must be fixed so if you want your kid or wife to shoot it the length of pull is too long because you can't adjust it. The brace you can adjust all day. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Krdshrk 3,872 Posted August 26, 2019 My 14.5" Spikes Midlength AR with Stock in the position I have it pinned in (Position 3 I think), is 34". So from 34" OAL to 26.5" for the Troy A4... 9.5" is significant... plus you can adjust the brace and change the FH for something else... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
High Exposure 5,635 Posted August 26, 2019 The 9.5” (actually 34-26.5=7.5 not 9.5 by the way ) difference as you measured it is irrelevant and misleading. What matters is the overall length of the firearm in the configuration in which you shoot the gun the best. You shoot an AR best with the stock in position 3 and an overall length of 34”. The overall length of the non-NFA firearm needs to be measured with its brace in a comparable position and the difference noted then. The overall length while the firearm is in a configuration that doesn’t suit itself to your shooting style is balderdash. Barrel length is the determining factor here. From the front of the receiver, to the back of the brace or stock should always be the same length for each individual. It may change by one notch if you are going in and out of hard armor, but that’s about it. The ability to adjust the length of pull is an advantage if you are sharing the firearms with others. Otherwise, it’s not that big of a deal. If you shoot best in position 3, why would you move it to position 2 or 4 if you are shooting..... 2 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blacksmythe 71 Posted August 26, 2019 I agree with High Exposure. I like mine because it feels like the rifle I used as a young man. I learned basic rifle marksmanship on a M16 A2 which was about 40 inches. I loved that thing. So much so that I built a long barrel fixed stock AR that measures OAL 34 1/2 inches, I move that sucker like its nobody's business. I had access to nothing else really. But this came along and it feels like my old M4 which I loved even more because of SOPMOD but guess what an M4 is like 33 Inches with the stock extended. In the end this contraption with my length of pull is 31 3/4 inches and weighs less. I say all that to say I like it because its lighter, slightly shorter and adjustable like my old sweet heart M4. No big deal but I'll take what I can get. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PK90 3,569 Posted August 26, 2019 1 hour ago, Krdshrk said: My 14.5" Spikes Midlength AR with Stock in the position I have it pinned in (Position 3 I think), is 34". So from 34" OAL to 26.5" for the Troy A4... 9.5" is significant... plus you can adjust the brace and change the FH for something else... Somebody needs to go back to school and do the math correctly. (7.5") As stated, with the stock and brace in the same position, that 7.5" becomes 5.5"? 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackDaWack 2,894 Posted August 26, 2019 1 hour ago, High Exposure said: The 9.5” difference as you measured it is irrelevant and misleading. What matters is the overall length of the firearm in the configuration in which you shoot the gun the best. You shoot an AR best with the stock in position 3 and an overall length of 34”. The overall length of the non-NFA firearm needs to be measured with its brace in a comparable position and the difference noted then. The overall length while the firearm is in a configuration that doesn’t suit itself to your shooting style is balderdash. Barrel length is the determining factor here. From the front of the receiver, to the back of the brace or stock should always be the same length for each individual. It may change by one notch if you are going in and out of hard armor, but that’s about it. The ability to adjust the length of pull is an advantage if you are sharing the firearms with others. Otherwise, it’s not that big of a deal. If you shoot best in position 3, why would you move it to position 2 or 4 if you are shooting..... So... pin the brace to the buffer tube where u like it and get a shorter barrel? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
High Exposure 5,635 Posted August 26, 2019 2 hours ago, JackDaWack said: So... pin the brace to the buffer tube where u like it and get a shorter barrel? I’d rather pin a muzzle brake than the stock to make up the length. And honestly, I don’t understand the fascination with the shorter barrels. 11.5” vs 12.5” is a deal breaker? Really? Have you ever really compared the two? From a handling standpoint, they are virtually identical - barring the addition of a suppressor or the need to fight in and around confided spaces ie: ships, cars, third world shithole houses with tiny doors and rooms. Also, from a reliability and terminal ballistics standpoint - the 12.5” barrel has a slight advantage in my opinion. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Maksim 1,504 Posted August 26, 2019 17 minutes ago, High Exposure said: I’d rather pin a muzzle break than the stock to make up the length. And honestly, I don’t understand the fascination with the shorter barrels. 11.5” vs 12.5” is deal breaker? Really? Have you ever really compared the two? From a handling standpoint, they are virtually identical - barring the addition of a suppressor or the need to fight in and around confided spaces ie: ships, cars, third world shithole houses with tiny doors and rooms. Also, from a reliability and terminal ballistics standpoint - the 12.5” barrel has a slight advantage in my opinion. What he said... Just get an extra inch... I hear an extra inch is better in all cases... (penis joke)... and get to keep both, the ability to swap muzzle device and adjust LOP. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blacksmythe 71 Posted August 26, 2019 You could always go 10.5 add a sure fire and end up with a 13.5 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackDaWack 2,894 Posted August 26, 2019 2 minutes ago, Blacksmythe said: You could always go 10.5 add a sure fire and end up with a 13.5 In my readings, 10.5 on a carbine gas system can have issues... 11.5 and up seems to be fine. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackDaWack 2,894 Posted August 26, 2019 48 minutes ago, Maksim said: What he said... Just get an extra inch... I hear an extra inch is better in all cases... (penis joke)... and get to keep both, the ability to swap muzzle device and adjust LOP. Personal preference. I'd rather the extra length be added to the brace. keeping the overall length of the firearm closest to 26". There is absolutely nothing that a 11.5" cant do that a 12.5 could in which i would use something like this for. It's also far easier to reverse or change the brace position that a pinned muzzle device. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Maksim 1,504 Posted August 26, 2019 16 minutes ago, JackDaWack said: Personal preference. I'd rather the extra length be added to the brace. keeping the overall length of the firearm closest to 26". There is absolutely nothing that a 11.5" cant do that a 12.5 could in which i would use something like this for. It's also far easier to reverse or change the brace position that a pinned muzzle device. Far easier to take an extra .75" to the barrel. =P Then you don't need to pin either brake or brace. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
High Exposure 5,635 Posted August 26, 2019 45 minutes ago, Maksim said: Far easier to take an extra .75" to the barrel. =P Then you don't need to pin either brake or brace. I know this is the Troy thread, but the MM guns are using an 11.75” barrel - and new appropriately lengthened handguard. This combo makes the OAL of the SBF right at the approved required length when measured against the new ATF standard and negates any required pinning on either end of the firearm. 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shane45 807 Posted August 26, 2019 Unless an actual MK18, 11.5 seems to be best minimum for enough dwell time etc etc. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackDaWack 2,894 Posted August 26, 2019 29 minutes ago, Shane45 said: Unless an actual MK18, 11.5 seems to be best minimum for enough dwell time etc etc. thats was my understanding. 32 minutes ago, High Exposure said: I know this is the Troy thread, but the MM guns are using an 11.75” barrel - and new appropriately lengthened handguard. This combo makes the OAL of the SBF right at the approved required length when measured against the new ATF standard and negates any required pinning on either end of the firearm. I asked a while ago in their thread what the deal was, never received a response but i guess this is their answer. If they sell just the barrel, I would buy one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackDaWack 2,894 Posted August 26, 2019 45 minutes ago, Maksim said: Far easier to take an extra .75" to the barrel. =P Then you don't need to pin either brake or brace. My objective has been getting the smallest profile i can while maintaining reliable cycling, i know an inch isn't much but if i can get around it I will. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites